Boeing, unions, and the right to work

[GoneBezerk]

He is just a stupid lib that didn't see the video since CNN and msnbc covered up the story. If they don't see it, then it didn't happen in their demented world.

Wow....you're hopeless.

With each passing post you continue to show your ignorance of unions and unionized workers.

The only thing you're being honest about or showing any knowledge about is that you get your news from FOX.

And that explains a whole lot.

.

I also saw the film of those lazy assed UAW members smoking pot and drinking at the local park when they were supposed to be working.

You can't argue with video tape. The reality of your typical union member just doesn't match your delusions, does it?

 

[thereisnospoon]

I love when Conservatives call for government regulation of private contracts....

You have it backwards. Right to Work laws actually remove requirements that compel workers to join labor organizations. In effect, that is deregulation of the labor marketplace.
Right to Work does not outlaw unions. RTW simply allows a level playing field.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I love when Conservatives call for government regulation of private contracts....

I think I see your point, but can you expound a bit?

"Right to work" laws are laws that forbid companies and unions from agreeing that all employees become members of the union.

A perfect example of the government stepping in, and interfering in the free market.

Nice try ,comrade

Once again. Pay close attention. Right to Work laws simply give the right to workers to NOT be compelled to join a labor organization in order to procure employment. It also protects workers who's employer's shop has certified to join a union, from joining said union.
That's called freedom to choose with whom one wishes to do business.
You in your pro union stance can try to spin this any way you wish. The bottom line is unions are out and freedom of choice is in.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I have a general question-

let us suppose for a moment that the Boeing board decided to close all operations in Washington and move it all to SC, why should this be against the law?

It isn't . However the Obama Dept of Labor is going to attempt to use the courts to punish a private business for moving operations to a state that puts rights of workers ahead of those of unions.
The Dept of Labor as directed by the Obama admin is doing his bidding because he owes unions big time.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I have a general question-

let us suppose for a moment that the Boeing board decided to close all operations in Washington and move it all to SC, why should this be against the law?

It shouldn't. I'm about as pro-labor as you can get, and I think this shit with Boeing and the unions is bullshit. Boeing can open a factory wherever they want.

I think all "right to work" laws should be overthrown, but they're the law right now and the NLRB are acting like petulant children.

Why should workers not have a choice to join a labor organization?
Why should a private company be compelled to do business with a labor organization?

 

[thereisnospoon]

The Right to Scab law definitely does attract some industries, without doubt.

LOL..Right to scab....With that statement you leave us with no doubt you are a mind numbed gnat.
You union thugs consider all 91 % of us ( US non union workers) to be scabs.
Sorry Charlie. It is your side( unions) that is the odd man out.

 

[thereisnospoon]

By having "right to work", you keep the unions honest. I don't want any unions giving my dues to politicians of any political party. Not having right to work laws is what liberals want. Then they can cry when their jobs go overseas from their own policies, but instead will blame those greedy republican corporotists. They're dumber than a monkey fuckin' a racoon.

1) If you're, in fact, a Union member you can pay a reduced fee whereby none of your dues go to political contributions. It's the law.

2) Do you honestly believe that if there were no Unions that no more jobs would be sent overseas or across the border?

.

Unions do not have the power or relevance to wield such influence. So your point is moot.

 

[bripat9643]

The Right to Scab law definitely does attract some industries, without doubt.

LOL..Right to scab....With that statement you leave us with no doubt you are a mind numbed gnat.
You union thugs consider all 91 % of us ( US non union workers) to be scabs.
Sorry Charlie. It is your side( unions) that is the odd man out.

Union thugs have all sorts of derogatory names for hard working Americans who want to do an honest day's work for an honest day's pay just as the mafia has derogatory names for the victims of their extortion racket who refuse to pay up. Both groups of people are ofthen the targets of violence.

He may use the government to do his dirty work for him, but DaGoose is a thug, pure and simple. A lot of the union thugs I know have actually personally engaged in violence against strike breakers.

I have more respect for Al Capone than for the head of the AFL-CIO.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Please explain how individual rights are threatened.

According the the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) only 6.9 percent of the private workforce are Union, and even less than that are Closed Shop.
.

Being forced to join a union is a violation of your rights. So what you're saying is that you don't give a damn that the government violates the rights of 7% of the private workforce.



According to that logic, a protection racket isn't a violation of your rights since you can move to a neighborhood where they don't have one. Why should a third party have a right to interfere in a contract between you and an employer? It has no such right, and anyone who claims it does is no better than a common thug.

See? You're free to work wherever you want. Now THERE'S your "Right to Work"!!

.

It's hard to be civil to libtards when they are such obvious jackasses.

And it's hard to be civil to wing nuts when they are obviously ignorant.

1) Being forced to join a Union is NOT a "violation of your rights". If you think it is prove it.

2) According to your logic I should be able to join any private organization and then petition the government to get them to change their rules to fit MY beliefs.

Why is it that people like you PREACH small government but then ask them to come to your rescue and interfere with private contracts?

.

Anytime "force" is applied in an unconstitutional manner it is a violation of one's civil liberties. Additionally, the law does no allow for a company to be compelled to do business with one which does not wish.
For example. Even in closed shop states, once a union contract expires, there is no law that compels that company to continue a business relationship with a labor organization. As a matter of fact, the only reason why companies continue to sing these agreements is to prevent losses from union workers refusing to honor their agreements as employees and show up for work. The only reason why unions survive is because it is difficult for employers to replace workers quickly. If this was doable, unions would all but disappear.
BTW in 22 states , being forced to join a union is in fact a violation of civil rights.
Right to work protects the rights people already have. Forced union laws actually strip the right of choice from workers.
Look, this is all academic. Unions are on their way to the status of the Dodo. Extinct. Unions are no longer needed. Unions did their thing. Unions are the reason why American labor laws were strengthened. Unions now must change with the times or go the way of the 8 track tape.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Everybody's free to be a complete douche and join a union. I've never known anyone worth their salt that was a union member.

Then you know nothing about the men and women who make up unionized work forces. In my union and all of the different trades we hire in special circumstances do NOT put up with anyone who does not do their share of the work.

.

Trade unions, Boiler Makers, Pipe Fitters, Electricians and so on are not the same as labor unions like UAW, Retail Clerks and AFL-CIO.

Trade unions train, apprentice and require ongoing education of their membership and in truth gaurentee the quality and the workmanship of the products and services provided. Trade unions provide a ready pool of trained and qualified individuals for contract hiring to draw on. Trade unions provide the follow ups on the workmanship of their members.

Labor unions try to mandate working conditions and pay rates for their membership in spite of prevailing economic conditions. In many cases this restricts a company's ability to respond to opportunities quickly and nimbly.

There are even negotiated clauses in labor contracts that restrict the amount of increased procuctivity by individuals that the union will tolerate. This type of clause resulted in a unionized work force locally in the Indianapolis area of about 350 being put out of work as the employer transferred those jobs to a Tennessee Facility.

Trade Unions raise the quality and quantity of work and depend on individuals constantly improving their skills to produce results.

Labor unions define the value of a workers output and refuse to allow any increses in that output without increased compensation. If the profits increase, the union views this as a loss.

Think of Trade Unions as a flowing stream and Labor Unions as a stagnent cess pool.

I will beg to differ on trade unions. These unions are every bit as coercive and subversive as their labor union counterparts.
For example. IN the early 80's I worked in a NYC union paint shop. Local 9 of the IUPAT...Painters union. Those guys were the drywall finishers as well.
Anyway. Here are some of the examples of illogical union rules. First, the widest paint brush allowed was 4" and widest roller 9".....Widest drywall mud knife, 6"....I asked of one of my co-workers why this is. He told me these tools would allow the work to get done too quickly....
One jib we worked was running behind schedule. In the union world I have no idea what that is. This job must have been REALLY late.
Anyway, we wanted to work a little later. Since the building was being renovated there were other trades. Well here's the stupid part. In order for us to work past the time the electricians stayed, our employer had to pay one of the electricians 4 hours minimum ( at time and a half) event though we were going to work only one hour more, just to turn off the lights. That's right. The rules said that only a licensed electrician could flip a fucking switch. Why ? Because the God damned union said so. Now how stupid is that?
While I was there I heard the foremen griping out loud how the company was "pushing" the job and how the foremen were going to ask the union shop steward if it was ok to slow down the job.. WHAT?!!!!
I quit like two weeks later. These union people violated every principle I stood for. Do a good job, a professional job. Give a dollar's work for a dollar's pay. Keep you mouth shut and your ears open. Work smart and get ahead.
These people made a lot of money and they were all miserable. They looked at working for a paycheck as a burden. It was always "the union , the union the union"..I thought to myself, "fuck the the God damned union. The union is why you hate your job so much. It's like they have told you that you should not have to anything but show up and collect a check".......Unions are unions no matter who they represent.
Trade unions would have us believe that the only good tradesmen and craftsmen are union. That's bullshit. A union card does not a skilled worker make.

 

[code1211]

Nice dodge to the question.

Next time just say you don't know.
.

Say that I don't know what I believe?

Yes. I asked about jobs being sent overseas and across the border and you tried to change the subject.

We already know why the RTW states are growing faster in jobs. It's obvious that many companies choose to relocate to states where the average wages are far less due to poverty and education. People there are used to being exploited.

Now....please explain how Unions are the reason we can't compete with third world nations or just ignore the question.
.

Anything is worth what someone is willing to pay to get it.

Given the same relative value of two choices, the buyer will buy the same quality at the reduced price.

If the labor to produce an airplane costs less in South Carolina than it does in Washington state, the buyer (employer) will buy it there.

The same is true of Taiwan, China, Korea, Japan or anywhere else.

Unions inflate the rate of pay to each worker artificially.

If the unions were a legitimate workforce enhancer, they would be striving to increase the value of the work performed to match the value of the wages paid. Even higher wages paid to each individual could result in a lower cost of labor if the procuctivity is increased sufficiently.

Unions do the exact revers of this. They intentionally maintain or reduce the amount of work remitted for the wages paid to increase or maintain thier membership.

This devalues the work performed and enhances the value of work performed by workers who are not Union members. Non-Union workers can be in foreign countries or can be in other states.

If the work performed is the same and the cost is less, what's the mystery to any thinking individual?

Does this clear it up for you?

 

[code1211]

I like unions because they mandate a certain level of quality.

With the recent news of drowsy air traffic controllers, planes rupturing in the air, and flights passing alarmingly close to one another, one might wish Captain Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger were back in the cockpit. But in the two years since he landed a stricken Airbus 320 in the Hudson River, Sullenberger has used the fame he gained from the miraculous landing to push for airline safety, speaking around the country about the importance of airline safety reform and lobbying against cuts to the Federal Aviation Administration.

Sully

Republicans won't be satisfied until everything in this nation is as dangerous as it can possibly be. They are like "termites" gnawing at America's foundation.

The air traffic controllers are members of a union and that uion negotiated the working conditions including the scheduling of the shifts to allow for 3-day weekends.

This was a UNION-NEGOTIATED problem.

Do you ever get sick of being right?

 

[Care4all]

Wow....you're hopeless.

With each passing post you continue to show your ignorance of unions and unionized workers.

The only thing you're being honest about or showing any knowledge about is that you get your news from FOX.

And that explains a whole lot.

.

I saw the film of those lazy assed UAW members smoking pot and drinking at the local park when they were supposed to be working.

The reality of your typical union member doesn't match your delusions.

The truth hurt's, don't it?

uhhhhh, seriously Bripat? You don't think some private sector workers ever go out and smoke a dooby? What the heck? You take only 2 pot smokers from a union that you saw in a video, and you label and tag ALL union members as being like them?

Does anyone around here use their own God given power to reason and think on their own anymore?

 

[code1211]

Then you know nothing about the men and women who make up unionized work forces. In my union and all of the different trades we hire in special circumstances do NOT put up with anyone who does not do their share of the work.

.

Trade unions, Boiler Makers, Pipe Fitters, Electricians and so on are not the same as labor unions like UAW, Retail Clerks and AFL-CIO.

Trade unions train, apprentice and require ongoing education of their membership and in truth gaurentee the quality and the workmanship of the products and services provided. Trade unions provide a ready pool of trained and qualified individuals for contract hiring to draw on. Trade unions provide the follow ups on the workmanship of their members.

Labor unions try to mandate working conditions and pay rates for their membership in spite of prevailing economic conditions. In many cases this restricts a company's ability to respond to opportunities quickly and nimbly.

There are even negotiated clauses in labor contracts that restrict the amount of increased procuctivity by individuals that the union will tolerate. This type of clause resulted in a unionized work force locally in the Indianapolis area of about 350 being put out of work as the employer transferred those jobs to a Tennessee Facility.

Trade Unions raise the quality and quantity of work and depend on individuals constantly improving their skills to produce results.

Labor unions define the value of a workers output and refuse to allow any increses in that output without increased compensation. If the profits increase, the union views this as a loss.

Think of Trade Unions as a flowing stream and Labor Unions as a stagnent cess pool.

I will beg to differ on trade unions. These unions are every bit as coercive and subversive as their labor union counterparts.
For example. IN the early 80's I worked in a NYC union paint shop. Local 9 of the IUPAT...Painters union. Those guys were the drywall finishers as well.
Anyway. Here are some of the examples of illogical union rules. First, the widest paint brush allowed was 4" and widest roller 9".....Widest drywall mud knife, 6"....I asked of one of my co-workers why this is. He told me these tools would allow the work to get done too quickly....
One jib we worked was running behind schedule. In the union world I have no idea what that is. This job must have been REALLY late.
Anyway, we wanted to work a little later. Since the building was being renovated there were other trades. Well here's the stupid part. In order for us to work past the time the electricians stayed, our employer had to pay one of the electricians 4 hours minimum ( at time and a half) event though we were going to work only one hour more, just to turn off the lights. That's right. The rules said that only a licensed electrician could flip a fucking switch. Why ? Because the God damned union said so. Now how stupid is that?
While I was there I heard the foremen griping out loud how the company was "pushing" the job and how the foremen were going to ask the union shop steward if it was ok to slow down the job.. WHAT?!!!!
I quit like two weeks later. These union people violated every principle I stood for. Do a good job, a professional job. Give a dollar's work for a dollar's pay. Keep you mouth shut and your ears open. Work smart and get ahead.
These people made a lot of money and they were all miserable. They looked at working for a paycheck as a burden. It was always "the union , the union the union"..I thought to myself, "fuck the the God damned union. The union is why you hate your job so much. It's like they have told you that you should not have to anything but show up and collect a check".......Unions are unions no matter who they represent.
Trade unions would have us believe that the only good tradesmen and craftsmen are union. That's bullshit. A union card does not a skilled worker make.

Point taken.

Silly rules abound in any over thought arrangement. I didn't even know, though I should have assumed, that there was a painters union. I painted apartments one summer and was not in a union.

A welder sealing a seam on a tank that might explode if done wrong is different to me than a guy making sure that the dry wall tape sticks until the mud is on it. However,, I've seen guys who know what they're doing with dry wall and my compared to theirs is not comparable.

That said, I've talked to Pipe Fitters who say Boilermakers are slugs and vice versa.

 

[DaGoose]

Wow....you're hopeless.

With each passing post you continue to show your ignorance of unions and unionized workers.

The only thing you're being honest about or showing any knowledge about is that you get your news from FOX.

And that explains a whole lot.

.

I also saw the film of those lazy assed UAW members smoking pot and drinking at the local park when they were supposed to be working.

You can't argue with video tape. The reality of your typical union member just doesn't match your delusions, does it?

Wow....you're hopeless.

With each passing post you continue to show your ignorance of unions and unionized workers.

The only thing you're being honest about or showing any knowledge about is that you get your news from FOX.

And that explains a whole lot.

.

I saw the film of those lazy assed UAW members smoking pot and drinking at the local park when they were supposed to be working.

The reality of your typical union member doesn't match your delusions.

The truth hurt's, don't it?

uhhhhh, seriously Bripat? You don't think some private sector workers ever go out and smoke a dooby? What the heck? You take only 2 pot smokers from a union that you saw in a video, and you label and tag ALL union members as being like them?

Does anyone around here use their own God given power to reason and think on their own anymore?

Uhhhh......yep, that's correct. He's of the opinion that ALL Union members drink and smoke pot on the job and that ALL non-union workers are faithful, hard working employees.

The problem is....he probably never even met a union employee and knows nothing about them except from what he hears on FOX and Rush Limbaugh.

.

 

[DaGoose]

Say that I don't know what I believe?

Yes. I asked about jobs being sent overseas and across the border and you tried to change the subject.

We already know why the RTW states are growing faster in jobs. It's obvious that many companies choose to relocate to states where the average wages are far less due to poverty and education. People there are used to being exploited.

Now....please explain how Unions are the reason we can't compete with third world nations or just ignore the question.
.

Anything is worth what someone is willing to pay to get it.

Given the same relative value of two choices, the buyer will buy the same quality at the reduced price.

If the labor to produce an airplane costs less in South Carolina than it does in Washington state, the buyer (employer) will buy it there.

The same is true of Taiwan, China, Korea, Japan or anywhere else.

Unions inflate the rate of pay to each worker artificially.

If the unions were a legitimate workforce enhancer, they would be striving to increase the value of the work performed to match the value of the wages paid. Even higher wages paid to each individual could result in a lower cost of labor if the procuctivity is increased sufficiently.

Unions do the exact revers of this. They intentionally maintain or reduce the amount of work remitted for the wages paid to increase or maintain thier membership.

This devalues the work performed and enhances the value of work performed by workers who are not Union members. Non-Union workers can be in foreign countries or can be in other states.

If the work performed is the same and the cost is less, what's the mystery to any thinking individual?

Does this clear it up for you?

Ok....so what you're saying is that, in order to compete, we must lower our standard of living to that of Mexico, right?

.

 

[Mr Natural]

Yes. I asked about jobs being sent overseas and across the border and you tried to change the subject.

We already know why the RTW states are growing faster in jobs. It's obvious that many companies choose to relocate to states where the average wages are far less due to poverty and education. People there are used to being exploited.

Now....please explain how Unions are the reason we can't compete with third world nations or just ignore the question.
.

Anything is worth what someone is willing to pay to get it.

Given the same relative value of two choices, the buyer will buy the same quality at the reduced price.

If the labor to produce an airplane costs less in South Carolina than it does in Washington state, the buyer (employer) will buy it there.

The same is true of Taiwan, China, Korea, Japan or anywhere else.

Unions inflate the rate of pay to each worker artificially.

If the unions were a legitimate workforce enhancer, they would be striving to increase the value of the work performed to match the value of the wages paid. Even higher wages paid to each individual could result in a lower cost of labor if the procuctivity is increased sufficiently.

Unions do the exact revers of this. They intentionally maintain or reduce the amount of work remitted for the wages paid to increase or maintain thier membership.

This devalues the work performed and enhances the value of work performed by workers who are not Union members. Non-Union workers can be in foreign countries or can be in other states.

If the work performed is the same and the cost is less, what's the mystery to any thinking individual?

Does this clear it up for you?

Ok....so what you're saying is that, in order to compete, we must lower our standard of living to that of Mexico, right?

.

That's exactly what they're saying.

But not for them personally of course, only for others.

"Prosperity through lower wages" should be their campaign slogan.

 

[DaGoose]

Say that I don't know what I believe?

Yes. I asked about jobs being sent overseas and across the border and you tried to change the subject.

We already know why the RTW states are growing faster in jobs. It's obvious that many companies choose to relocate to states where the average wages are far less due to poverty and education. People there are used to being exploited.

Now....please explain how Unions are the reason we can't compete with third world nations or just ignore the question.
.

Anything is worth what someone is willing to pay to get it.

(Given)

Given the same relative value of two choices, the buyer will buy the same quality at the reduced price.

(Agreed. But Union trades and their emphasis on safety and education provide a superior product)

If the labor to produce an airplane costs less in South Carolina than it does in Washington state, the buyer (employer) will buy it there.

The same is true of Taiwan, China, Korea, Japan or anywhere else.

(Of course. Why would I pay employees a good wage if I can get the work done from people who are willing to be exploited for far less money?)

Unions inflate the rate of pay to each worker artificially.

(Wrong. They level the playing field and employees paid closer to their real worth.)

If the unions were a legitimate workforce enhancer, they would be striving to increase the value of the work performed to match the value of the wages paid. Even higher wages paid to each individual could result in a lower cost of labor if the procuctivity is increased sufficiently.

Unions do the exact revers of this. They intentionally maintain or reduce the amount of work remitted for the wages paid to increase or maintain thier membership.

(You say Unions don't do this but after 30 years experience I can say that almost ALL do.)

This devalues the work performed and enhances the value of work performed by workers who are not Union members. Non-Union workers can be in foreign countries or can be in other states.

(And be exploited by getting paid for far less than their worth.)

If the work performed is the same and the cost is less, what's the mystery to any thinking individual?

Does this clear it up for you?

So in your opinion we must lower our standard to that of Mexico in order to be "competitive"?

.

 

[bripat9643]

Uhhhh......yep, that's correct. He's of the opinion that ALL Union members drink and smoke pot on the job and that ALL non-union workers are faithful, hard working employees.

The problem is....he probably never even met a union employee and knows nothing about them except from what he hears on FOX and Rush Limbaugh.

.

I used to be a member of Carpenter's Local #1391, dipshit.

 

[DaGoose]

Uhhhh......yep, that's correct. He's of the opinion that ALL Union members drink and smoke pot on the job and that ALL non-union workers are faithful, hard working employees.

The problem is....he probably never even met a union employee and knows nothing about them except from what he hears on FOX and Rush Limbaugh.

.

I used to be a member of Carpenter's Local #1391, dipshit.

Oh, ok then. My mistake.

Then it only stands to reason that.....

1) You and all your co-workers must have also smoked pot and drank beer when you were supposed to be working, right? And...........

2) You and all your co-workers were a lazy, good for nothing bums who couldn't stand up for themselves?

BTW....I know lots of Union Carpenters and know their work since we hire many of them for temporary projects. The ones I know are GREAT workers do exceptional quality work.

This Bud's for them!!

.