Blacks Scream Racism, but its Whites who can go into Black Neighborhoods!

[IanC]

hmmm.....

most of my posts simply point out the world as it is. you seem to consider presenting evidence as racist. I am willing to concede that there is still some residual racism in western society but there is also a tremendous amount of effort put into improving the lot of other races.

the reason I started posting on message boards was because white racism was being touted as the single reason for disparate black achievement. not only is it not the only reason, it is not even the most important factor. intelligence is the most important factor, not only in education but a host of other social traits.

I can accept that there is some racism and some reverse racism. can you accept that the role of intelligence is an important factor in life? not only for blacks but for whites and everyone else?

I find it laughable that posters like catzmeow neg rep and personally insult me for a bland comment like this.

 

[catzmeow]

Shaker Heights? is that the same place that Ogbu wrote about? that is a perfect example of my contentions. black upper middle class parents move into an upscale neighbourhood with great schools in the hopes of giving their kids a great start in life. highly commendable. what happened? the same black/white disparities in achievement and discipline. they then invited a black sociology professor to investigate the causes and he spent close to a year studying the schools, students and families. when he found that the black students didnt actually do the homework and the black parents didnt actually get involved with schools or their children's studies he was angrily sent away. personally I would add 'regression to the mean' into the mix as well as the cultural component but it certainly showed that blacks do not want to accept any criticism for their plight and would just prefer to blame ephemeral 'white racism'.

Actually, Ogbu's research was conducted in Cleveland Heights. It's really an interesting study about the cultural and family issues surrounding poor performance by black students.

the evidence is much, much stronger that low intelligence causes poverty than it is for the opposite case that poverty causes low intelligence.

Actually, current brain research suggests something different. Exposure to recurrent trauma (particularly for infants) is correlated to lowering of the IQ and creation of a near permanent fight/flight response.

Poverty increases the odds of being exposed to trauma, and that trauma increases the odds of behavioral issues and lowered IQ.

Here's an example of recent research on the subject: Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med -- Abstract: Violence Exposure, Trauma, and IQ and/or Reading Deficits Among Urban Children, March 2002, Delaney-Black et al. 156 (3): 280

If you feel otherwise, please feel free to provide some evidence which supports your claims.

blacks as a group have a lower average intelligence therefore they make poorer choices and decisions which leads to disparities in outcomes. I am not saying that intelligence is the only factor but it is an important one that easily explains the majority of the differences between blacks and whites.

Poverty affects IQ development considerably more than race. The studies on IQ with blacks have primarily been conducted in areas where the respondents were exposed to considerable ill effects from poverty.

As in many other studies, the black children in the study had IQ scores a full 15 points lower than their white counterparts. Poverty alone,the researchers found, accounted for 52 percent of that difference, cutting it to 7 points. Controlling for the children's home environment reduced the difference by another 28 percent, to a statistically insignificant 3 points -- in essence, eliminating the gap altogether.

IPR News: Poverty, Education Account for IQ Gap, April 1996

Further, if this was a race-based issue, than African-born blacks would not be the most highly-educated segment of both American and British society.

African immigrants to the U.S. are among the most educated groups in the United States. Some 48.9 percent of all African immigrants hold a college diploma. This is more than double the rate of native-born white Americans, and nearly four times the rate of native-born African Americans.[13] According to the 2000 Census, the rate of college diploma acquisition is highest among Egyptian Americans at 59.7 percent, followed closely by Nigerian Americans at 58.6 percent. [14] [15]

African immigration to the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
KWP In Practice | Africans in England

 

[IanC]

Intelligence is a factor but it doesn't necessarily determine quality of life, people from countries like Cambobia, Burma, Laos etc are generally quite smart and do well when they come here as immigrants but those countries in general are crime ridden shit holes. If intelligence was all that mattered all those countries should be shining bright utopias since their citizens are quite smart.

it is difficult to compare societies that are organized differently than ours. or the same society from one era to the next. it is generally true in all societies that more intelligence is a benefit though.

It is but intelligence doesn't stop things like crime, poverty etc. lets take India for example, they generally are a pretty smart people and do well academically but a quarter of their country lives in poverty, thats 250 million people! and I mean real poverty, kids playing in shit, not eating for days, no clothes etc not Western poverty where you have food stamps and shop at Goodwill.

I am sorry that you dont seem to grasp the concept that intelligence bestows a benefit upon the holder. the more freedom and opportunity within a society, the more powerful is its influence.

 

[High_Gravity]

it is difficult to compare societies that are organized differently than ours. or the same society from one era to the next. it is generally true in all societies that more intelligence is a benefit though.

It is but intelligence doesn't stop things like crime, poverty etc. lets take India for example, they generally are a pretty smart people and do well academically but a quarter of their country lives in poverty, thats 250 million people! and I mean real poverty, kids playing in shit, not eating for days, no clothes etc not Western poverty where you have food stamps and shop at Goodwill.

I am sorry that you dont seem to grasp the concept that intelligence bestows a benefit upon the holder. the more freedom and opportunity within a society, the more powerful is its influence.

I didn't say that intelligence wasn't a benefit, you are the one who doesn't understand that just because you are intelligent it doesn't necessarily mean you can escape crime or poverty.

 

[IanC]

It is but intelligence doesn't stop things like crime, poverty etc. lets take India for example, they generally are a pretty smart people and do well academically but a quarter of their country lives in poverty, thats 250 million people! and I mean real poverty, kids playing in shit, not eating for days, no clothes etc not Western poverty where you have food stamps and shop at Goodwill.

I am sorry that you dont seem to grasp the concept that intelligence bestows a benefit upon the holder. the more freedom and opportunity within a society, the more powerful is its influence.

I didn't say that intelligence wasn't a benefit, you are the one who doesn't understand that just because you are intelligent it doesn't necessarily mean you can escape crime or poverty.

actually I think intelligence does exactly that. smart people get educated, find a good job and if they have a family, move out to the suburbs where they are surrounded by other smart people who are also enjoying being separated from crime and poverty. is it possible for smart people to be poor or victims of crime? of course but it is certainly much less likely than for a dull person.

 

[IanC]

Shaker Heights? is that the same place that Ogbu wrote about? that is a perfect example of my contentions. black upper middle class parents move into an upscale neighbourhood with great schools in the hopes of giving their kids a great start in life. highly commendable. what happened? the same black/white disparities in achievement and discipline. they then invited a black sociology professor to investigate the causes and he spent close to a year studying the schools, students and families. when he found that the black students didnt actually do the homework and the black parents didnt actually get involved with schools or their children's studies he was angrily sent away. personally I would add 'regression to the mean' into the mix as well as the cultural component but it certainly showed that blacks do not want to accept any criticism for their plight and would just prefer to blame ephemeral 'white racism'.

Actually, current brain research suggests something different. Exposure to recurrent trauma (particularly for infants) is correlated to lowering of the IQ and creation of a near permanent fight/flight response.

Poverty increases the odds of being exposed to trauma, and that trauma increases the odds of behavioral issues and lowered IQ.

Here's an example of recent research on the subject: Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med -- Abstract: Violence Exposure, Trauma, and IQ and/or Reading Deficits Among Urban Children, March 2002, Delaney-Black et al. 156 (3): 280

If you feel otherwise, please feel free to provide some evidence which supports your claims.



Poverty affects IQ development considerably more than race. The studies on IQ with blacks have primarily been conducted in areas where the respondents were exposed to considerable ill effects from poverty.

As in many other studies, the black children in the study had IQ scores a full 15 points lower than their white counterparts. Poverty alone,the researchers found, accounted for 52 percent of that difference, cutting it to 7 points. Controlling for the children's home environment reduced the difference by another 28 percent, to a statistically insignificant 3 points -- in essence, eliminating the gap altogether.

IPR News: Poverty, Education Account for IQ Gap, April 1996

I never said that exposure to violence, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, family abuse, sex abuse, etc doesnt have a negative effect on the potential of a child. by definition none of us ever fufills our full potential because everyone receives insults and injuries during childhood, as well as less than perfect coaching and teaching from parents and teachers.

parents in poverty typically provide inferior conditions for their children. genetic heritability of intelligence is lower and noisier for the poor because it is harder to separate genetic influence from poor brain developement due to environmental insults.

once a minimally competent environment is provided for a child the genetic influence is very strong, in all races. so unless you are stating that the majority of black children live under such bad conditions that they are all permanently stunted in childhood I dont believe that your study makes a serious impact on the longstanding B/W intelligence gap.

items to think about- in California poor white children outperform affluent black children in school academic achievement. SAT scores for the lowest income whites are higher than all black groups except those families making >250,000/year. or how about the culture side? an interesting anomaly is that mixed race children tend to score higher if they are being raised by a white mother rather than a black mother.

anyways I am quite willing to discuss any topic with you in a reasonable fashion. I prefer a single topic at a time rather than the shotgun approach that lets the other side ignore specific statements

 

[catzmeow]

II dont believe that your study makes a serious impact on the longstanding B/W intelligence gap.

I don't believe that you're an expert, so what you believe is largely irrelevant without evidence to bolster your claim.

items to think about- in California poor white children outperform affluent black children in school academic achievement. SAT scores for the lowest income whites are higher than all black groups except those families making >250,000/year. or how about the culture side? an interesting anomaly is that mixed race children tend to score higher if they are being raised by a white mother rather than a black mother.

Source of data?

 

[IanC]

II dont believe that your study makes a serious impact on the longstanding B/W intelligence gap.

I don't believe that you're an expert, so what you believe is largely irrelevant without evidence to bolster your claim.

items to think about- in California poor white children outperform affluent black children in school academic achievement. SAT scores for the lowest income whites are higher than all black groups except those families making >250,000/year. or how about the culture side? an interesting anomaly is that mixed race children tend to score higher if they are being raised by a white mother rather than a black mother.

Source of data?

California Dept of EDucation, and the College Board.

Professor Ogbu's latest conclusions are highlighted in a study of blacks in Shaker Heights, Ohio, an affluent Cleveland suburb whose school district is equally divided between blacks and whites. As in many racially integrated school districts, the black students have lagged behind whites in grade-point averages, test scores and placement in high-level classes. Professor Ogbu was invited by black parents in 1997 to examine the district's 5,000 students to figure out why.

Why Are Black Students Lagging? - New York Times

if you want to say it wasnt Shaker Heights, thats fine but most people including the author name the area as SH

 

[catzmeow]

California Dept of EDucation, and the College Board.

Post a link.

if you want to say it wasnt Shaker Heights, thats fine but most people including the author name the area as SH

My bad.

 

[IanC]

 

[IanC]

I couldnt easily find the California study. will this do?

http://nationsreportcard.gov/reading_2007/r0011.asp?tab_id=tab2&subtab_id=Tab_1#chart

 

[catzmeow]

It's more complex than just race, dude.

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/FryerLevittUnderstandingTheBlack2004.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/j/jencks-gap.html

 

[IanC]

It's more complex than just race, dude.

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/FryerLevittUnderstandingTheBlack2004.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/j/jencks-gap.html

just so we are clear....you are acknowledging that poverty is nowhere near as strong a factor as you were promoting, right? poor whites outscore affluent blacks. we agree on that now?


the NYT link goes to a sign-in. the pdf may be interesting but a quick scan shows that it is mostly interested in adding adjustment after adjustment to reduce the gap. in reality the gap is still there isnt it?

 

[catzmeow]

It's more complex than just race, dude.

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/FryerLevittUnderstandingTheBlack2004.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/j/jencks-gap.html

just so we are clear....you are acknowledging that poverty is nowhere near as strong a factor as you were promoting, right? poor whites outscore affluent blacks. we agree on that now?


the NYT link goes to a sign-in. the pdf may be interesting but a quick scan shows that it is mostly interested in adding adjustment after adjustment to reduce the gap. in reality the gap is still there isnt it?

Poverty is incredibly influential in crime rates, which is the topic of this thread. You've now shifted the conversation away from crime rates, and onto IQ scores, and while poverty plays a role in influencing IQ scores, there are other factors that come into play in that realm, as well. When it comes to IQ scores, scientists now believe that GENERATIONAL poverty is more of an issue. In other words, a kid's GRANDPARENT'S poverty and lack of education can influence that kid's test scores, because poverty and lack of education create a cultural and familial influence in which education is not valued and is not supported by parents. That cultural and familial influence isn't about being black, because black kids who grow up in different cultural settings with different familial support do as well as whtie students on IQ and standardized tests, such as the college board.

So, which do you want to discuss? Black crime rates? Or black IQ scores? The causal factors for each are not synonymous.

 

[IanC]

actually I think we are both discussing the root causes of crime. you want to blame poverty. I am OK with that to a certain extent. but poverty doesnt just happen to people in a random fashion, in most cases there is a reason for it. the two biggest factors are culture and intelligence.

black culture is an obvious detriment. lack of two parent families and a distain for working for future oriented goals has been disasterous for many blacks. I made a comment somewhere about how blacks are too accepting of anti-social behaviour. how many black kids grow up with criminal brothers, uncles and fathers around? perhaps even looking up to them? reasons are not excuses. how would you have society at large make a meaningful change to black culture? only blacks can make that change and most dont think that there is much wrong with their culture.

the other side is intelligence. smarter people make better decisions which usually means no poverty after entering the workforce. intelligence is strongly linked to not living in poverty, not having out-of-wedlock children, graduating high school and not commiting crimes. even within the same family greater intelligence is a strong predictor of more success.

BTW, intelligence is there whether it is measured or not. knowing the SAT, AFQT or IQ score of an individual doesnt make any difference in that person's intelligence. it only gives information on how well that person may perform in circumstances that need cognitive ability. which of course means just about everything from counting change to managing the power grid.

 

[Huey]

whites go into a Black neighborhood in the day time,but wont walk in a Black neighborhood at nite.The only reason they come in the nightime is by car to purchase drugs.

 

[Bass v 2.0]

Fact is, some whites are racist but most blacks are racist.

Still proving Texans are retards are you?

 

[whitehall]

The media promotes the notion either for a laugh or as a convoluted concept of "payback" that a White person deserves to be assaulted if he ventures into what they used erroneously refer to as the "ghetto. There are hundreds of movies that promote the concept. If a White kid was found dead in a Black neighborhood the first thing the Police would ask is "what was he doing there" and the assumption would be drugs. Why is that? LBJ's "war on poverty" kept "ghettos" running with federal dollars dolled out to poverty pimps and "community organizers" in exchange for votes for democrats. Hollywood reinforced the isolation for decades by portraying Black revolutionaries as slick street wise heroes and White people as racist chumps.

 

[yidnar]

The same treatment goes for Blacks who dont live in that same neighborhood,or other Black neighborhoods. Or Black kids who dress differently then their attackers.Thats why I'll never live in a predominate Black neighborhood.cause I would be shooting dumb "MFRS" everyday.

you just admitted that blacks are vile bastards filled with hate !!

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Fact is, some whites are racist but most blacks are racist.

Still proving Texans are retards are you?

You prove my point every time you post.