Biker Shootout in Waco Texas. None Convicted.

[SavannahMann]

I waited several days to post this to see if some of the Law and Order throw them all in prison types would shout that it was an outrage. Nothing from the shoot first and establish their guilt later crowd, so I am going to go ahead and post it myself.

There are several lessons obvious to even the casual reader of the news stories. Ineptitude by the Police and Prosecutors is first. But before we get to the lessons obvious in the story, I suppose we should post the story itself.

Prosecutors drop all charges in deadly shootout involving Texas biker gangs

The new DA blamed the old DA for not prosecuting the cases in a timely manner. Well why didn’t he? Because prosecuting someone leaves the option of Not Guilty as a Verdict, or of a Hung Jury, which was the result of the only case tried.

Why was the case so hard to try? Well first we can assume several things. Having witnesses pick out which large hairy guy with a beard from a line up of large hairy bearded guys is going to be tricky. Even in the case of Surveillance Video, picking out the large hairy guy in the video, and explaining to the jury that the large hairy bearded guy is the one you can see in the video, and only he could be the one, is another of those tough sells.

But how do prosecutions work today? Plea Bargains, or people talking themselves into trouble by answering questions of the Police. Both are the usual way that such cases are handled. Someone talks. But if no one talks, you are left with explaining that the big hairy bearded guy is the one in the video, and if he shaves his beard, forget it.

The bikers were obviously smart enough to shut the hell up. By staying silent, they make the cases against themselves harder to prove. Someone apparently explained all that to them, otherwise there would have been more trials. The Outgoing DA probably hoped that one of the 24 remaining open cases, would talk. But apparently none of them did. Think about it. It wasn’t until Sammy the Bull started talking about Gotti that they finally convicted the best known Mob Boss since Al Capone. If Sammy had shut the hell up, then Gotti probably would have stayed in control of the Mob until he died.

I’m sure that none of you had considered this case, as it seemed like a no brainer with the obvious conclusion that several of the baddies would be spending life in Prison, or perhaps getting the Death Penalty. Truthfully I hadn’t thought of this case in years myself. The first lesson is say nothing to the police. Say nothing. Do not explain it away, do not explain that it wasn’t your fault, just say nothing. As this news story shows, if you do nothing to help them build the case against you, you are far less likely to be convicted.

 

[harmonica]

....my question has always been:
if 2 people pull out their pistols---both can say self defense--yes?
either can shoot and kill in self defense--yes?

 

[BlackFlag]

....my question has always been:
if 2 people pull out their pistols---both can say self defense--yes?
either can shoot and kill in self defense--yes?

In Texas you just fire away whenever the hell you want, it seems.

 

[Tijn Von Ingersleben]

....my question has always been:
if 2 people pull out their pistols---both can say self defense--yes?
either can shoot and kill in self defense--yes?

In Texas you just fire away whenever the hell you want, it seems.

God bless Texas.

 

[BULLDOG]

All those patriotic good guys with a gun should make gun nuts proud.

 

[SavannahMann]

All those patriotic good guys with a gun should make gun nuts proud.

It doesn’t scare me. I’ve never been afraid of a weapon in my life. The person holding the weapon may have my undivided attention, but the weapon, nope.

 

[Vastator]

I waited several days to post this to see if some of the Law and Order throw them all in prison types would shout that it was an outrage. Nothing from the shoot first and establish their guilt later crowd, so I am going to go ahead and post it myself.

There are several lessons obvious to even the casual reader of the news stories. Ineptitude by the Police and Prosecutors is first. But before we get to the lessons obvious in the story, I suppose we should post the story itself.

Prosecutors drop all charges in deadly shootout involving Texas biker gangs

The new DA blamed the old DA for not prosecuting the cases in a timely manner. Well why didn’t he? Because prosecuting someone leaves the option of Not Guilty as a Verdict, or of a Hung Jury, which was the result of the only case tried.

Why was the case so hard to try? Well first we can assume several things. Having witnesses pick out which large hairy guy with a beard from a line up of large hairy bearded guys is going to be tricky. Even in the case of Surveillance Video, picking out the large hairy guy in the video, and explaining to the jury that the large hairy bearded guy is the one you can see in the video, and only he could be the one, is another of those tough sells.

But how do prosecutions work today? Plea Bargains, or people talking themselves into trouble by answering questions of the Police. Both are the usual way that such cases are handled. Someone talks. But if no one talks, you are left with explaining that the big hairy bearded guy is the one in the video, and if he shaves his beard, forget it.

The bikers were obviously smart enough to shut the hell up. By staying silent, they make the cases against themselves harder to prove. Someone apparently explained all that to them, otherwise there would have been more trials. The Outgoing DA probably hoped that one of the 24 remaining open cases, would talk. But apparently none of them did. Think about it. It wasn’t until Sammy the Bull started talking about Gotti that they finally convicted the best known Mob Boss since Al Capone. If Sammy had shut the hell up, then Gotti probably would have stayed in control of the Mob until he died.

I’m sure that none of you had considered this case, as it seemed like a no brainer with the obvious conclusion that several of the baddies would be spending life in Prison, or perhaps getting the Death Penalty. Truthfully I hadn’t thought of this case in years myself. The first lesson is say nothing to the police. Say nothing. Do not explain it away, do not explain that it wasn’t your fault, just say nothing. As this news story shows, if you do nothing to help them build the case against you, you are far less likely to be convicted.

Plea bargains should be outlawed. If the State can’t make its case, without someone “biting the bullet”... Then the State doesn’t have a case...

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Yes, everyone is entitled to a presumption of innocence.

Yes, everyone is entitled to due process of the law.

And yes, it’s preferable that a guilty man go free rather than an innocent man be convicted.

But only rightwing nitwits would ‘celebrate’ the state’s inability to prosecute armed individuals acting in a reckless, irresponsible manner.

 

[BlackFlag]

All those patriotic good guys with a gun should make gun nuts proud.

I, for one, think Texans should be allowed to shoot each other without restriction.

 

[SavannahMann]

Yes, everyone is entitled to a presumption of innocence.

Yes, everyone is entitled to due process of the law.

And yes, it’s preferable that a guilty man go free rather than an innocent man be convicted.

But only rightwing nitwits would ‘celebrate’ the state’s inability to prosecute armed individuals acting in a reckless, irresponsible manner.

I personally always celebrate when shoddy Police Work is not rewarded. One example. The North Carolina trooper that stopped a car for not having a Front License Plate. The out of state car came from a state that did not require such things. The officer searched and found drugs in the car. IMO, the drugs should have been disallowed from the trial, since the stop was illegal. The Supreme Court ruled that the ignorance of the officer was understandable. While Ignorance is no excuse for the citizens turning right on red, it is apparently a great excuse for a cop who doesn’t bother to learn the law. So the lesson, the less the cop knows, the more he can get away with.

Yeah. I find this humorous, because apparently for years now the DA’s office has been trying to get someone, anyone, to roll over.

 

[harmonica]

Yes, everyone is entitled to a presumption of innocence.

Yes, everyone is entitled to due process of the law.

And yes, it’s preferable that a guilty man go free rather than an innocent man be convicted.

But only rightwing nitwits would ‘celebrate’ the state’s inability to prosecute armed individuals acting in a reckless, irresponsible manner.

I personally always celebrate when shoddy Police Work is not rewarded. One example. The North Carolina trooper that stopped a car for not having a Front License Plate. The out of state car came from a state that did not require such things. The officer searched and found drugs in the car. IMO, the drugs should have been disallowed from the trial, since the stop was illegal. The Supreme Court ruled that the ignorance of the officer was understandable. While Ignorance is no excuse for the citizens turning right on red, it is apparently a great excuse for a cop who doesn’t bother to learn the law. So the lesson, the less the cop knows, the more he can get away with.

Yeah. I find this humorous, because apparently for years now the DA’s office has been trying to get someone, anyone, to roll over.

.....in my state, you have to agree to a search in ''normal'' traffics stops ..I'm guessing they allowed the search?

 

[SavannahMann]

Yes, everyone is entitled to a presumption of innocence.

Yes, everyone is entitled to due process of the law.

And yes, it’s preferable that a guilty man go free rather than an innocent man be convicted.

But only rightwing nitwits would ‘celebrate’ the state’s inability to prosecute armed individuals acting in a reckless, irresponsible manner.

I personally always celebrate when shoddy Police Work is not rewarded. One example. The North Carolina trooper that stopped a car for not having a Front License Plate. The out of state car came from a state that did not require such things. The officer searched and found drugs in the car. IMO, the drugs should have been disallowed from the trial, since the stop was illegal. The Supreme Court ruled that the ignorance of the officer was understandable. While Ignorance is no excuse for the citizens turning right on red, it is apparently a great excuse for a cop who doesn’t bother to learn the law. So the lesson, the less the cop knows, the more he can get away with.

Yeah. I find this humorous, because apparently for years now the DA’s office has been trying to get someone, anyone, to roll over.

.....in my state, you have to agree to a search in ''normal'' traffics stops ..I'm guessing they allowed the search?

That isn’t exactly true in any state. Police Traffic Stops and Vehicle Searches: FAQs - FindLaw

If you say no, then the cops have to gin up an excuse. The usual is that a drug dog “keyed” on the vehicle. For some reason the police never tell us how often the dogs “key” on a vehicle with nothing in it.

Or absent anything they can point to as a probable cause, then the cops have to wait for a search warrant. That means you are liable to wait in the back of their car until they get one.

You do not have to agree to a search. You are free to say no, but the courts have ruled that pretty much anything is “probable cause” for a search.