Biggest Traitor in US History

I think every white man in the history of this country is a traitor. They're the reason us strong, proud black men have to sling rocks to get ahead. Fuck Whitey!
 
I hate Jews, mexicans, cubans, ricans, canadians, towel heads, chinks, gooks, kikes, japs, riceeaters, greasy wops, dagos, pug irish mics, and pretty much everybody else, but... I LOVE ME SOME NURGAHS!
 
I didn't address how slavery affected the south's attempt to get European allies because I don't disagree with that. Many were hesitant to side with a slave nation, but another reason was that Lincoln threatened war with anyone who allied with the Confederacy. My only disagreement with you is regarding the north's overall attitude towards slavery. The major opinion was that northerners didn't want an influx of freed slaves moving to their state and taking their jobs. Some states, Illinois for example, had laws forbidding African-Americans from emigrating to their state. Lincoln supported these measures as he wanted to deport all African-Americans out of the country.

Lee opposed slavery as an institution and believed, along with Jefferson Davis, that slavery would end of its own accord. The economy of the south was industrializing, though not as fast as the north of course, and slavery was becoming less and less economical.

I think we're probably closer in opinion than I realized. I'm curious, as an aside: How do you think things would have played out had the South abolished slavery prior to the war? Would that have even been a possible course of action?

I always thought that a Southern Emancipation Proclamation at the start of the War would have turned the situation on its head, as that would have left the North as the only side with slave holding states. However, once you read the secession articles of the Southern States, you start to realize that abolishing the institution of Slavery just wasn't likely to happen.
 
I didn't address how slavery affected the south's attempt to get European allies because I don't disagree with that. Many were hesitant to side with a slave nation, but another reason was that Lincoln threatened war with anyone who allied with the Confederacy. My only disagreement with you is regarding the north's overall attitude towards slavery. The major opinion was that northerners didn't want an influx of freed slaves moving to their state and taking their jobs. Some states, Illinois for example, had laws forbidding African-Americans from emigrating to their state. Lincoln supported these measures as he wanted to deport all African-Americans out of the country.

Lee opposed slavery as an institution and believed, along with Jefferson Davis, that slavery would end of its own accord. The economy of the south was industrializing, though not as fast as the north of course, and slavery was becoming less and less economical.

I think we're probably closer in opinion than I realized. I'm curious, as an aside: How do you think things would have played out had the South abolished slavery prior to the war? Would that have even been a possible course of action?

I always thought that a Southern Emancipation Proclamation at the start of the War would have turned the situation on its head, as that would have left the North as the only side with slave holding states. However, once you read the secession articles of the Southern States, you start to realize that abolishing the institution of Slavery just wasn't likely to happen.

It depends on how it happened. If the new Confederate government simply decreed slavery abolished it never would have worked out, in my opinion. Or had the Confederate Constitution not explicitly protected slavery I don't think it would have been ratified. If they tried some kind of paid emancipation where slave owners could get paid to free their slaves then I think they might have had some success, though I can't predict how widespread it would have been. I'm sure there would have been some very serious opposition to that plan as well, however. At any rate I don't see how it could have happened at the start of the war whatsoever.
 
I think every white man in the history of this country is a traitor. They're the reason us strong, proud black men have to sling rocks to get ahead. Fuck Whitey!

If you can't get ahead in life, it is due to the fact that you keep looking behind you. How about taking responsibility for your life, stop your tired ignorant racial excuses, and start looking forward for a change.
 
Exatly, Arminius (or Siegfried or Herrman) who was/is regarded as the "Defender of Germanic Independence from evil Rome" and still has a fair bit of hero worship today (some friggin large statues for starters) basically won his Roman War with a very very well planned and executed betrayal.

Quote:
There is only one excuse for betrayal, that is if you win.
 
All of the Founders were treason baiters, to the British, at least, and to about 15% of colonists. It's all situational ethnics, neh?
 
Benedict Arnold, I think.

He sold out his nation because he was angry with Continental Congress for not giving him a higher rank.

Robert E. Lee did committ treason, but I think his motives were not venal.
Look no further, this is the correct answer.
 
After the war no one was considered a traitor. So end of story.

By his standard all the Founding Fathers were traitors to our mother country in that they fomented rebellion against it and broke away by force of arms with a terrorist army.

This is just some knucklehead trying to stir up some shit.

Actually they were traitors to England and its king...and if they'd lost, many would have been hung as such.

The difference is all in who wins.
 
After the war no one was considered a traitor. So end of story.

By his standard all the Founding Fathers were traitors to our mother country in that they fomented rebellion against it and broke away by force of arms with a terrorist army.

This is just some knucklehead trying to stir up some shit.

Actually they were traitors to England and its king...and if they'd lost, many would have been hung as such.

The difference is all in who wins.

Its actually more who you ask ;)

One of the more...."interesting"... transitions I've had to make since moving to the South comes down to how folks view the players in the Civil War. Where I grew up Lincoln was spoken of in hushed reverant tones and Sherman has a statue in his honor in Central Park. He's seen as a guy that did what had to be done. Lee isn't villified, but he isn't really respected and Jefferson Davis is a traitor.

First thing I found when I moved to New Orleans was a GIGANTIC statue of Lee. A few streets down from me is Jefferson Davis Drive. I actually looked at a house on that street and decided to pass because I couldn't stomach living on a street named for that guy. Lincoln and Sherman don't come up at all in conversation, and I wouldn't dream of brining them up.
 
By his standard all the Founding Fathers were traitors to our mother country in that they fomented rebellion against it and broke away by force of arms with a terrorist army.

This is just some knucklehead trying to stir up some shit.

Actually they were traitors to England and its king...and if they'd lost, many would have been hung as such.

The difference is all in who wins.

Its actually more who you ask ;)

One of the more...."interesting"... transitions I've had to make since moving to the South comes down to how folks view the players in the Civil War. Where I grew up Lincoln was spoken of in hushed reverant tones and Sherman has a statue in his honor in Central Park. He's seen as a guy that did what had to be done. Lee isn't villified, but he isn't really respected and Jefferson Davis is a traitor.

First thing I found when I moved to New Orleans was a GIGANTIC statue of Lee. A few streets down from me is Jefferson Davis Drive. I actually looked at a house on that street and decided to pass because I couldn't stomach living on a street named for that guy. Lincoln and Sherman don't come up at all in conversation, and I wouldn't dream of brining them up.

What's your grudge against Jefferson Davis? Davis was no more a traitor than Lee was, and Davis openly opposed secession from the Union.
 
Actually they were traitors to England and its king...and if they'd lost, many would have been hung as such.

The difference is all in who wins.

Its actually more who you ask ;)

One of the more...."interesting"... transitions I've had to make since moving to the South comes down to how folks view the players in the Civil War. Where I grew up Lincoln was spoken of in hushed reverant tones and Sherman has a statue in his honor in Central Park. He's seen as a guy that did what had to be done. Lee isn't villified, but he isn't really respected and Jefferson Davis is a traitor.

First thing I found when I moved to New Orleans was a GIGANTIC statue of Lee. A few streets down from me is Jefferson Davis Drive. I actually looked at a house on that street and decided to pass because I couldn't stomach living on a street named for that guy. Lincoln and Sherman don't come up at all in conversation, and I wouldn't dream of brining them up.

What's your grudge against Jefferson Davis? Davis was no more a traitor than Lee was, and Davis openly opposed secession from the Union.

Serving in the Military in defense of your home is a totally different thing than accepting the Presidency of the organization that is risking bringing trouble to your doorstep. If Davis opposed secession, he shouldn't have agreed to lead the Confederacy.

That's the issue for me.
 
Its actually more who you ask ;)

One of the more...."interesting"... transitions I've had to make since moving to the South comes down to how folks view the players in the Civil War. Where I grew up Lincoln was spoken of in hushed reverant tones and Sherman has a statue in his honor in Central Park. He's seen as a guy that did what had to be done. Lee isn't villified, but he isn't really respected and Jefferson Davis is a traitor.

First thing I found when I moved to New Orleans was a GIGANTIC statue of Lee. A few streets down from me is Jefferson Davis Drive. I actually looked at a house on that street and decided to pass because I couldn't stomach living on a street named for that guy. Lincoln and Sherman don't come up at all in conversation, and I wouldn't dream of brining them up.

What's your grudge against Jefferson Davis? Davis was no more a traitor than Lee was, and Davis openly opposed secession from the Union.

Serving in the Military in defense of your home is a totally different thing than accepting the Presidency of the organization that is risking bringing trouble to your doorstep. If Davis opposed secession, he shouldn't have agreed to lead the Confederacy.

That's the issue for me.

He opposed his state seceding from the Union, but he accepted that they had the right to do so and chose to stick with his state the same way that Robert E. Lee did. I don't see why him being the President of the Confederacy makes any difference. Lee chose to serve in the military and Davis chose to serve in the government. They both chose to serve the Confederacy so why does one get a pass and the other gets labelled a traitor?
 
What's your grudge against Jefferson Davis? Davis was no more a traitor than Lee was, and Davis openly opposed secession from the Union.

Serving in the Military in defense of your home is a totally different thing than accepting the Presidency of the organization that is risking bringing trouble to your doorstep. If Davis opposed secession, he shouldn't have agreed to lead the Confederacy.

That's the issue for me.

He opposed his state seceding from the Union, but he accepted that they had the right to do so and chose to stick with his state the same way that Robert E. Lee did. I don't see why him being the President of the Confederacy makes any difference. Lee chose to serve in the military and Davis chose to serve in the government. They both chose to serve the Confederacy so why does one get a pass and the other gets labelled a traitor?
For me its the distinction between military and civilian service. Lee joined to defend his home state, an action made necessary by the decisions of others. Accepting civilian leadership is a horse of a different color. Davis could have passed on that and found other ways to help defend his state in the conflict to come.
 
Serving in the Military in defense of your home is a totally different thing than accepting the Presidency of the organization that is risking bringing trouble to your doorstep. If Davis opposed secession, he shouldn't have agreed to lead the Confederacy.

That's the issue for me.

He opposed his state seceding from the Union, but he accepted that they had the right to do so and chose to stick with his state the same way that Robert E. Lee did. I don't see why him being the President of the Confederacy makes any difference. Lee chose to serve in the military and Davis chose to serve in the government. They both chose to serve the Confederacy so why does one get a pass and the other gets labelled a traitor?
For me its the distinction between military and civilian service. Lee joined to defend his home state, an action made necessary by the decisions of others. Accepting civilian leadership is a horse of a different color. Davis could have passed on that and found other ways to help defend his state in the conflict to come.

Well I don't agree, but that's obviously just my opinion. Thanks for clarifying your point at any rate.
 
I would argue that Robert E. Lee was for the following reasons:

1. He rejected his US citizenship in order to join a rogue terrorist nation(little known fact, he lived out the remainder of his years on parole and never was given his citizenship back during his lifetime).

2. He burned American flags and fought under a terrorist nation's flag.

3. He fought to preserve the evil institution of chattel slavery and was a HUGE proponent of slavery.

4. He murdered hundreds of thousands of American soldiers, more than Hitler, OBL, and Saddam combined.

5. He encouraged and led hundreds of thousands of former Americans to join a rogue nation and fight for that nation against the USA.


IF anyone can name a bigger traitor with evidence attached, I would welcome it.

You're a regular piece of work. he was nowhere near a traitor to his nation as you are factual history without a spin on it.

He could not be a traitor to a country he renounced his citizenship to. I'll bet you need a cool, soothing ointment after THAT one.

Wow looks like you're "Traitor Theory" Had a HUGE hole in it there CatholicAtheist.

I was betting it was either George W Bush or Barack H Obama...i was WAY off.


I'd say Benedict Arnold for selling out his fellow troops and the revolution over perceived slights from George Washington.
 

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