Big Business, Corporate Profits, and the Minimum Wage

[eflatminor]

Ah, in that case, I disagree strongly. Do you have any evidence that poverty would increase in lieu of a federally mandated minimum wage?

Eflatminor, you’re requesting “proof” of a political concept as you would ask fort proof a mathematical concept.

Mathematics is not a science but rather a philosophy, (i.e. a system of thought that’s acceptable among those that employ its concepts. It is the most perfectly precise of all philosophies because if a single exception to a mathematical rule is encountered, that exception is not “rationalized” away but rather the concept is no longer considered as a “rule”. You cannot “prove” 2 + 2 = 4 unless you accept the philosophy of mathematics as a “proof”.

Politics is among the social studies which are all more subjective and less objective than the empirical sciences. You can try to prove a physics or chemistry postulates. It’s more difficult, (if not possibly impossible) to prove sociology or political postulates. What’ done is logically arguing the “cases”. If you believe otherwise, can you prove 2 + 2 = 4?
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Discussing the logical justification of the legal minimum wage rate, I ask if you agree that any affect of the minimums’ rate upon a task’s wage rate will be inversely related to the difference between the purchasing power of the minimum wage rate and the job’ rate? It’s contended the minimum wage rate has an effect upon ALL job rates.

Respectfully, Supposn

Okay, fine, we can simply use logic and reason to estimate how minimum wage laws might increase or decrease poverty. As I state previously, I believe they increase poverty and just as importantly, they harm to most vulnerable among us (the young, the elderly and the uneducated). I find it unconscionable. Further, I find it immoral that you or anyone should dictate if a man can or cannot work. Minimum wage laws prevent people from working. Again, unconscionable.

 

[Supposn]

Ah, in that case, I disagree strongly. Do you have any evidence that poverty would increase in lieu of a federally mandated minimum wage?

Eflatminor, Politics is among the social studies which are all more subjective and less objective than the empirical sciences. You can try to prove a physics or chemistry postulates. It’s more difficult, (if not possibly impossible) to prove sociology or political postulates. What’ done is logically arguing the “cases”. If you believe otherwise, can you prove 2 + 2 = 4?
//////////////////////////////////////////

Discussing the logical justification of the legal minimum wage rate, I ask if you agree that any affect of the minimums’ rate upon a task’s wage rate will be inversely related to the difference between the purchasing power of the minimum wage rate and the job’ rate? It’s contended the minimum wage rate has an effect upon ALL job rates.

Respectfully, Supposn

Okay, fine, we can simply use logic and reason to estimate how minimum wage laws might increase or decrease poverty. As I state previously, I believe they increase poverty and just as importantly, they harm to most vulnerable among us (the young, the elderly and the uneducated). I find it unconscionable. Further, I find it immoral that you or anyone should dictate if a man can or cannot work. Minimum wage laws prevent people from working. Again, unconscionable.

Eflatminor, I again ask if you agree that any affect of the minimums’ rate upon a task’s wage rate will be inversely related to the difference between the purchasing power of the minimum wage rate and the job’s rate?

Respectfully, Supposn

 

[Widdekind]

The following figure plots the real minimum wage (2010 USD) vs. the unemployment rate (%) for the period 1979-2005. Increases in the minimum wage consistently increased unemployment; decreases in the real minimum wage, "eroded" by inflation, consistently decreased unemployment. Minimum wages are no different than any other price "floor". If the cost of haircuts (say) was mandated by government to be $100, then nobody would buy haircuts. Likewise, minimum wages deter potential employers, from "buying" the labor of workers.

 

[Supposn]

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Widdekind, Imageshack is not the graph’s source. What’s its source and is it authoritative?
Respectfully, Supposn

 

[Widdekind]

UE percentages are from the "FRED data" webpage; nominal minimum wages are from government websites; i used the CPI-U, calibrated to 2010, to adjust for inflation

 

[expat_panama]

...those of us oppossed to FEDERAL minimum wages laws ALSO object to STATE Minimum wage laws? Or do you believe that NO GOVERNMENT has such a right?

Let's not question which values and rights have been given us by our Creator because that stuff is hard to prove. Let's talk about what is. The current Federal Minimum Wage directly affects federal service hiring, federal contract hiring, as well as state and other jurisdictions linked to the FMW. IIRC there's no state MW lower than the fed min wage, but what I know for sure is that having the fmw at the current all time high placed most the burden of the recession on the young:

 

[eflatminor]

Eflatminor, Politics is among the social studies which are all more subjective and less objective than the empirical sciences. You can try to prove a physics or chemistry postulates. It’s more difficult, (if not possibly impossible) to prove sociology or political postulates. What’ done is logically arguing the “cases”. If you believe otherwise, can you prove 2 + 2 = 4?
//////////////////////////////////////////

Discussing the logical justification of the legal minimum wage rate, I ask if you agree that any affect of the minimums’ rate upon a task’s wage rate will be inversely related to the difference between the purchasing power of the minimum wage rate and the job’ rate? It’s contended the minimum wage rate has an effect upon ALL job rates.

Respectfully, Supposn

Okay, fine, we can simply use logic and reason to estimate how minimum wage laws might increase or decrease poverty. As I state previously, I believe they increase poverty and just as importantly, they harm to most vulnerable among us (the young, the elderly and the uneducated). I find it unconscionable. Further, I find it immoral that you or anyone should dictate if a man can or cannot work. Minimum wage laws prevent people from working. Again, unconscionable.

Eflatminor, I again ask if you agree that any affect of the minimums’ rate upon a task’s wage rate will be inversely related to the difference between the purchasing power of the minimum wage rate and the job’s rate?

Respectfully, Supposn

No, I do not agree. Pretty clear.

 

[Supposn]

........................

Widdekind, Imageshack is not the graph’s source. What’s its source and is it authoritative?
Respectfully, Supposn

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UE percentages are from the "FRED data" webpage; nominal minimum wages are from government websites; i used the CPI-U, calibrated to 2010, to adjust for inflation

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Widdekind, now within the years of 1948 to 2012 show me the correlation between unemployment and the federal minimum wage rates.

Refer to:
FRED Graph - FRED - St. Louis Fed[1][id]=UNRATE
and
U.S. Department of Labor - Wage and Hour Division (WHD) - Minimum Wage

Respectfully, Supposn

 

[Supposn]

Eflatminor, I again ask if you agree that any affect of the minimums’ rate upon a task’s wage rate will be inversely related to the difference between the purchasing power of the minimum wage rate and the job’s rate?

Respectfully, Supposn

No, I do not agree. Pretty clear.

Eflatminor, then if in your opinion there are relationship between the federal minimum wage rate and the labor market rates to accomplish specific jobs or tasks?

Are there relationships for only some or for all jobs or tasks?

If the federal minimum wage doesn’t more or less affect all USA jobs and tasks, how would you determine which are or are not affected?

Lastly, if in your opinion there are relationship between the federal minimum wage rate and the labor market rates to accomplish specific jobs or tasks, what in your opinion are those relationships?

Respectfully, Supposn

 

[eflatminor]

Eflatminor, I again ask if you agree that any affect of the minimums’ rate upon a task’s wage rate will be inversely related to the difference between the purchasing power of the minimum wage rate and the job’s rate?

Respectfully, Supposn

No, I do not agree. Pretty clear.

Eflatminor, then if in your opinion there are relationship between the federal minimum wage rate and the labor market rates to accomplish specific jobs or tasks?

I assume you mean "if in your opinion is there a relationship"? The wording of your statement/question is not clear. If I'm assuming correctly, then sure, the minimum wage certainly distorts market labor rates, so yes, there is a relationship. It's just not a healthy one.

Are there relationships for only some or for all jobs or tasks?

If the federal minimum wage doesn’t more or less affect all USA jobs and tasks, how would you determine which are or are not affected?

Don't care. The market should determine labor rates, not you.

Lastly, if in your opinion there are relationship between the federal minimum wage rate and the labor market rates to accomplish specific jobs or tasks, what in your opinion are those relationships?

If English isn't your first language, I respectfully understand the wording here. You're not being all that clear. But I'll try: I suspect the minimum wage forces labor rates up in those jobs that tend to be part time and/or unskilled. This results in higher prices, often on those items most needed by the poor. So, minimum wage not only keeps lots of poor people from making money, it increases the price of the products they need to buy. That's not very compassionate I'd say.

Lastly, before I try to understand any more of your questions, answer mine: Why should you get to determine what a man is willing to work for? Why should you get to prevent our youth, retired elderly and uneducated poor from working at all? How is this moral?

 

[Supposn]

Quote Supposn:
Then if in your opinion there are relationship between the federal minimum wage rate and the labor market rates to accomplish specific jobs or tasks?
Quote Eflatminor:
I assume you mean "if in your opinion is there a relationship"? The wording of your statement/question is not clear. If I'm assuming correctly, then sure, the minimum wage certainly distorts market labor rates, so yes, there is a relationship. It's just not a healthy one.

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quote Supposn:
Are there relationships for only some or for all jobs or tasks?
Eflatminor failed to respond.

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quote Supposn:
If the federal minimum wage doesn’t more or less affect all USA jobs and tasks, how would you determine which are or are not affected?
Quote Eflatminor:
Don't care. The market should determine labor rates, not you.

I, (i.e. Supposn) do not determine labor rates. The market determines labor rates and the federal minimum wage rate is currently a factor within that market.

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quote Supposn:
Lastly, if in your opinion there are relationship between the federal minimum wage rate and the labor market rates to accomplish specific jobs or tasks, what in your opinion are those relationships?

Quote Eflatminor:
If English isn't your first language, I respectfully understand the wording here. You're not being all that clear. But I'll try:
I suspect the minimum wage forces labor rates up in those jobs that tend to be part time and/or unskilled. This results in higher prices, often on those items most needed by the poor. So, minimum wage not only keeps lots of poor people from making money, it increases the price of the products they need to buy. That's not very compassionate I'd say.

I, (i.e. Supposn) contend the federal minimum wage rate (directly or indirectly) more or less affects ALL labor compensation within the USA.
I believe the minimum rate’s affect upon a task’s wage rate is inversely related to the difference between the purchasing power of the minimum wage rate and the job’s rate; jobs with greater pay rates are lesser affected by the federal minimum wage rate.

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Quote Eflatminor:
Lastly, before I try to understand any more of your questions, answer mine: Why should you get to determine what a man is willing to work for? Why should you get to prevent our youth, retired elderly and uneducated poor from working at all? How is this moral? /

I, (i.e. Supposn) request that you discontinue using the term “you” to describe what the government does or it has been proposed that the government should do.
The government does not determine what a man is willing to work for and it does not prevent the elderly and uneducated poor from working. It does mandate a federal minimum wage rate. That is not immoral.

Respectfully, Supposn

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Big Business, Corporate Profits, and the Minimum Wage

workers earning at or near the minimum wage are seeing the real value of their paychecks diminish steadily over time, as the cost of living increases while their wages remain stagnant. After nearly half a century of neglect, today’s federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour is decades out of date. In terms of purchasing power, its value is 30 percent lower today than it was in 1968.

Many minimum-wage workers are teenagers. Most people do not work minimum-wage jobs for their whole lives. They work through minimum wage jobs, building job skills, and moving on. Minimum wage jobs "lower the employment ladder" down "to the streets", and allow people to work their way out of nothing (no income), to something (some income).

The minimum wage today is about as high as ever (since enacted in 1938). Almost every increase in the US Federal minimum wage has coincided with a spike in unemployment, and a recession (link) -- "raising the employment ladder up out of reach of the streets" and leaving millions of Americans with nothing (no income).

Big Businesses have recovered from the recession; are profitable:

the majority of America’s lowest‐paid workers are employed by large corporations, not small businesses, and that most of the largest low‐wage employers have recovered from the recession... the majority of low‐wage workers are employed by large corporations, most of which are enjoying strong profits

and are hiring hundreds of thousands of people (link). Because businesses are profitable, so they are hiring.

profitable => hiring​

Hiking minimum wages would only increase their costs, lower their profitability, and force them to fire current workers, and forgo hiring new workers. Those who advocate raising the minimum wage, are advocating firing low-paid people, and leaving them with nothing (except Public dole). Why would that garner votes? (Most people don't earn minimum wage, anyway.)

The entire low wage range is controlled by minimum wage. Not at lot of folks get minimum wage but a lot of folks work in the $1, $2, $3 above minimum wage range. Those wages tend to move when the minimum wage moves.


Although there is evidence that a hike in the minimum wage can cause small short term bump in teenage unemployment, the idea that modest minimum wage hikes is detrimental to the economy is not reflected by factual reality. One of the chief employers of minimum wage and near minimum wage labor - fast food restaurants - has expanded greatly since the minimum wage hike under Clinton and they show no signs of slowing down after the more recent minimum wage hike. Clearly they aren't affected that much.

 

[The Rabbi]

Studies that show no job loss suffer from survivor bias, i.e. the only businesses left around to answer a survey are those that survived. The ones that failed because of higher labor costs cannot answer a survey.
Look at unemployment among those most affected by min wage and the correlation is enormous. Min wage means higher wages for a few and no wages for many.

 

[Supposn]

The entire low wage range is controlled by minimum wage. Not at lot of folks get minimum wage but a lot of folks work in the $1, $2, $3 above minimum wage range. Those wages tend to move when the minimum wage moves.


Although there is evidence that a hike in the minimum wage can cause small short term bump in teenage unemployment, the idea that modest minimum wage hikes is detrimental to the economy is not reflected by factual reality. One of the chief employers of minimum wage and near minimum wage labor - fast food restaurants - has expanded greatly since the minimum wage hike under Clinton and they show no signs of slowing down after the more recent minimum wage hike. Clearly they aren't affected that much.

OohPooPahDoo, what you wrote is correct but you’ve only described those jobs and wages that most greatly reflect modifications of the minimum wage rate.

Refer to message #19 ”Minimum wage (more or less) affects ALL wage scales
within the topic discussion of “Consequences of repealing minimum wage rates”.

Respectfully, Supposn

 

[Widdekind]

The entire low wage range is controlled by minimum wage. Not at lot of folks get minimum wage but a lot of folks work in the $1, $2, $3 above minimum wage range. Those wages tend to move when the minimum wage moves.


Although there is evidence that a hike in the minimum wage can cause small short term bump in teenage unemployment, the idea that modest minimum wage hikes is detrimental to the economy is not reflected by factual reality. One of the chief employers of minimum wage and near minimum wage labor - fast food restaurants - has expanded greatly since the minimum wage hike under Clinton and they show no signs of slowing down after the more recent minimum wage hike. Clearly they aren't affected that much.

At McDonalds, average wages are near the Federal minimum. And, McDonalds recently hired 62,000 workers. Even if McDonalds is characteristic of the fast food industry, then

• perhaps fast food could expand more, into more low-income areas, with lower wages ?
• what about all other low-pay employment ?

i have argued generalities -- minimum wages eliminate low-pay jobs; you are arguing specifics -- "fast food industry" -- without providing specifics. Please cite specific data, to argue specifics. Generally, outlawing low-pay jobs, eliminates jobs, and increases unemployment. From 2007-2008, the minimum wage was increased over $2 per hour; the US economy entered recession soon thereafter. Prima facie, low-pay jobs, putting income into poor peoples' pockets, is an important part of keeping money moving (circulating) through the "stream of spending" in the economy.




McDonald's Hourly Pay | Glassdoor
How much money does the average McDonalds worker earn

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

[*]perhaps fast food could expand more, into more low-income areas, with lower wages ?

Because that's exactly what low-income areas need, MORE fast food chains.

 

[Widdekind]

[*]perhaps fast food could expand more, into more low-income areas, with lower wages ?

Because that's exactly what low-income areas need, MORE fast food chains.

bringing MORE jobs, MORE income, MORE money ?

 

[Rshermr]

[*]perhaps fast food could expand more, into more low-income areas, with lower wages ?

Because that's exactly what low-income areas need, MORE fast food chains.

bringing MORE jobs, MORE income, MORE money ?

More minimum wage jobs. Makes the cons happy. increase employment in low paying jobs. To hell with the middle class, says the right. And what the right says, Widdekind ALWAYS agrees with. Because his job is to pass out right wing dogma.

 

[Widdekind]

increasing the number of low-pay jobs, helps low-income earners; and has no adverse effects, on middle-to-upper income earners. All gains, no losses. Overall good for the American Public.

 

[Supposn]

The entire low wage range is controlled by minimum wage. Not at lot of folks get minimum wage but a lot of folks work in the $1, $2, $3 above minimum wage range. Those wages tend to move when the minimum wage moves.


Although there is evidence that a hike in the minimum wage can cause small short term bump in teenage unemployment, the idea that modest minimum wage hikes is detrimental to the economy is not reflected by factual reality. One of the chief employers of minimum wage and near minimum wage labor - fast food restaurants - has expanded greatly since the minimum wage hike under Clinton and they show no signs of slowing down after the more recent minimum wage hike. Clearly they aren't affected that much.

At McDonalds, average wages are near the Federal minimum. And, McDonalds recently hired 62,000 workers. Even if McDonalds is characteristic of the fast food industry, then

• perhaps fast food could expand more, into more low-income areas, with lower wages ?
• what about all other low-pay employment ?

i have argued generalities -- minimum wages eliminate low-pay jobs; you are arguing specifics -- "fast food industry" -- without providing specifics. Please cite specific data, to argue specifics. Generally, outlawing low-pay jobs, eliminates jobs, and increases unemployment. From 2007-2008, the minimum wage was increased over $2 per hour; the US economy entered recession soon thereafter. Prima facie, low-pay jobs, putting income into poor peoples' pockets, is an important part of keeping money moving (circulating) through the "stream of spending" in the economy.




McDonald's Hourly Pay | Glassdoor
How much money does the average McDonalds worker earn

You all, what do we agree or disagree upon?
(I cannot find OohPooPahDoo’s original message that’s quoted here from message #35).

I advocate the federal minimum wage rate should be annually cost of living adjusted, (i.e. COLA’d) in a similar manner as Social Security retirement benefits.

Widdekind, we agree that a specific legal minimum wage rate or a market’s unspecified lowest rate are both “bench marks”. You wrote “I have argued generalities -- minimum wages eliminate low-pay jobs”. Would you consider COLAing the federal minimuim wage rate (which doesn’t increase its purchasing power) as not being a real rate increase?

Respectfully, Supposn