Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Holy, Holy, Holy!

The pagans believed in seperate and unequal gods. Each city felt its own diety was stronger then the rest.

The trinity is the only doctrine among other religions that promotes the ideology that GOD is the united sum of three individual beings. And that together they constitute one GOD or GODHEAD. Together they are ONE in all measure.

Then what is the importance of the Trinity? It seems a moot issue. If a person is worshiping one, then he/she is worshiping all, and vice versa. Most lessons of scripture, whether I get them or not, at least appear to have some sort of overall value, whereas the concept of the Trinity appears to have no value. There doesn't seem to be anything to be derived, learned, or gained from believing in it. It seems at best an unimportant concept, that is, if I am a Christian, do I burn in hell for worshiping one God and not acknowledging the Trinity? It would appear not, so what is the point?

The importance of the Trinity is that God took on a human form, was born and lived a human existance. Then at the perfect time this God/man became sin so that man is no longer under the curse of separation from God ----- IF a man will acknowledge his sin and accept Christ as Lord, seeking forgivness. God saved man HIMSELF and did not send some creature He created to carry out such a horrific task. God, in fact, actually walked in our shoes for a moment in history. However, being God in the flesh, he did so with perfection and was not tempted of satan. Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. I also believe that Christ will remain in His glorified human form for all eternity. He is now the illustrated prototype of what all saved humans will become someday.
ALTER2EGO -to- LITTLE NIPPER:
Please prove what you're claiming from the Judeo-Christian Bible, which is God's inspired word. All you've done in the above post is presented your personal philosophy aka your opinion/speculations.

BTW: Matthew 28:19 (which you alluded to above in your first post) is simply the listing of three entities and says nothing about them being combined into a single god. That's like someone stating the names of the two former U.S. President Bushes and their son and brother, respectively, Jeb Bush, as follows:

(1) George H. Bush, Sr., (2) George W. Bush, Jr. (3) Jeb Bush.

Are you telling this forum that those three men in the Bush family are combined into a single person simply because their names are listed off together? You will have to do better than that.

Present two or three scriptural quotations from the Judeo Christian Bible that are your best examples of "trinity". I will then direct you to the context of the verses you have decided on.
 
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Then what is the importance of the Trinity? It seems a moot issue. If a person is worshiping one, then he/she is worshiping all, and vice versa. Most lessons of scripture, whether I get them or not, at least appear to have some sort of overall value, whereas the concept of the Trinity appears to have no value. There doesn't seem to be anything to be derived, learned, or gained from believing in it. It seems at best an unimportant concept, that is, if I am a Christian, do I burn in hell for worshiping one God and not acknowledging the Trinity? It would appear not, so what is the point?

The importance of the Trinity is that God took on a human form, was born and lived a human existance. Then at the perfect time this God/man became sin so that man is no longer under the curse of separation from God ----- IF a man will acknowledge his sin and accept Christ as Lord, seeking forgivness. God saved man HIMSELF and did not send some creature He created to carry out such a horrific task. God, in fact, actually walked in our shoes for a moment in history. However, being God in the flesh, he did so with perfection and was not tempted of satan. Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. I also believe that Christ will remain in His glorified human form for all eternity. He is now the illustrated prototype of what all saved humans will become someday.
ALTER2EGO -to- LITTLE NIPPER:
Please prove what you're claiming from the Judeo-Christian Bible, which is God's inspired word. All you've done in the above post is presented your personal philosophy aka your opinion/speculations.

BTW: Matthew 28:19 (which you alluded to above in your first post) is simply the listing of three entities and says nothing about them being combined into a single god. That's like someone stating the names of the two former U.S. President Bushes and their son and brother, respectively, Jeb Bush, as follows:

(1) George H. Bush, Sr., (2) George W. Bush, Jr. (3) Jeb Bush.

Are you telling this forum that those three men in the Bush family are combined into a single person simply because their names are listed off together? You will have to do better than that.

Present two or three scriptural quotations from the Judeo Christian Bible that are your best examples of "trinity". I will then direct you to the context of the verses you have decided on.

1 John 1
New International Version (NIV)

The Incarnation of the Word of Life
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our[a] joy complete.
Light and Darkness, Sin and Forgiveness
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

Hebrews 1:1-14
New International Version (NIV)

God’s Final Word: His Son
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
The Son Superior to Angels
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son
;
today I have become your Father”[a]?
Or again,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]
7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”[d]
8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[e]
10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[f]
13 To which of the angels did God ever say,

“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”[g]?
14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

John 14
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
 
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ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

In 325 C.E., the "Christianized" Romans aka Roman Catholics officially defined the trinity teaching that is the central doctrine of most of the 41,000 denominations within Christendom. The dogma of a 3-prong god that had previously been found only in pagan religions was thereafter an official "Christian" teaching.

Baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Holy, Holy, Holy!

The pagans believed in seperate and unequal gods. Each city felt its own diety was stronger then the rest.

The trinity is the only doctrine among other religions that promotes the ideology that GOD is the united sum of three individual beings. And that together they constitute one GOD or GODHEAD. Together they are ONE in all measure.
ALTER2EGO -to- LITTLE NIPPER:
Are you telling me that you can find proof in God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, that Jesus Christ and Jehovah and the holy spirit are co-equal? In other words, you agree with the official definition of trinity that the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit are co-equal and co-eternal; CORRECT?
 
The importance of the Trinity is that God took on a human form, was born and lived a human existance. Then at the perfect time this God/man became sin so that man is no longer under the curse of separation from God ----- IF a man will acknowledge his sin and accept Christ as Lord, seeking forgivness. God saved man HIMSELF and did not send some creature He created to carry out such a horrific task. God, in fact, actually walked in our shoes for a moment in history. However, being God in the flesh, he did so with perfection and was not tempted of satan. Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. I also believe that Christ will remain in His glorified human form for all eternity. He is now the illustrated prototype of what all saved humans will become someday.
ALTER2EGO -to- LITTLE NIPPER:
Please prove what you're claiming from the Judeo-Christian Bible, which is God's inspired word. All you've done in the above post is presented your personal philosophy aka your opinion/speculations.

BTW: Matthew 28:19 (which you alluded to above in your first post) is simply the listing of three entities and says nothing about them being combined into a single god. That's like someone stating the names of the two former U.S. President Bushes and their son and brother, respectively, Jeb Bush, as follows:

(1) George H. Bush, Sr., (2) George W. Bush, Jr. (3) Jeb Bush.

Are you telling this forum that those three men in the Bush family are combined into a single person simply because their names are listed off together? You will have to do better than that.

Present two or three scriptural quotations from the Judeo Christian Bible that are your best examples of "trinity". I will then direct you to the context of the verses you have decided on.

1 John 1
New International Version (NIV)

The Incarnation of the Word of Life
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our[a] joy complete.
Light and Darkness, Sin and Forgiveness
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

ALTER2EGO -to- LITTLE NIPPER:

I don't see anything in the above verses that indicates "trinity". I suggest you point it out by explaining to us where you are getting the idea of trinity from those verses. Which verse and which words from the particular verse or verses are you getting this idea from? Explain why you are getting the idea from the particular verse or verses. You bolded several words at verses 1, 2, and 3, but I do not see what's significant about the words you bolded. What is it about the bolded words that have led you to conclude they indicate Jehovah and Jesus Christ and the holy spirit are combined into a single god aka the Trinity? Please explain.
 
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The Trinity may be a majority Christian belief, but it's hardly universal. There are non-Trinitarians.

I find it odd that God should create imperfect beings and then punish them eternally for being imperfect.

God loves all his children, but when they are bad he punishes them for eternity. That does not sound like an all loving father to me. Assuming God's existence, which I prefer to believe, I think we've really messed up most of his teachings. Either that, or God is a power hungry unforgiving ruler who does not show mercy and does not really care for his flock. Somehow, I don't believe that.
 
The Trinity may be a majority Christian belief, but it's hardly universal. There are non-Trinitarians.

I find it odd that God should create imperfect beings and then punish them eternally for being imperfect.

God loves all his children, but when they are bad he punishes them for eternity. That does not sound like an all loving father to me. Assuming God's existence, which I prefer to believe, I think we've really messed up most of his teachings. Either that, or God is a power hungry unforgiving ruler who does not show mercy and does not really care for his flock. Somehow, I don't believe that.
ALTER2EGO -to- KONRADV & AUDITOR0007:
I gather, from both of your above comments, that you are referring to the false teaching of literal eternal hellfire torment. That teaching is nowhere to be found in God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. To help you reason on that, notice Questions 5, 6, and 7 from my opening post.
 
1 John 1
New International Version (NIV)

The Incarnation of the Word of Life
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our[a] joy complete.
Light and Darkness, Sin and Forgiveness
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

ALTER2EGO -to- LITTLE NIPPER:
Nothing in any of the verses you quoted above from John chapter one says anything resembling three gods in one who are co-equal and co-eternal. Maybe I missed something. Suppose you show me where those verses are saying any of that? Start by explaining the portions that you bolded.
 
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ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
I am a Christian and have the deepest respect for God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. I invite fellow Christians to participate in the questions for discussion. Two of the most basic teachings in Christendom are as follows:


1. THE TRINITY
The teaching that God is split up into three individual persons that are combined into one "Godhead" (Father, Son, and holy ghost/holy spirit). All three of these persons are said to be CO-EQUAL (meaning they have the same power) and CO-ETERNAL (meaning they have always existed at the same time and none of them can die).


2. HELLFIRE
The teaching that God will burn a person's soul in everlasting hellfire for committing wicked deeds. In other words, God will supposedly punish people forever in fiery flames of hell--despite the fact the crimes the persons committed were only done during the persons' brief human lifespan.


QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
1.
Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire? If so, present the scriptures by giving Bible book, chapter, and verse and also explain why you believe the scripture you present is talking about Trinity or literal hellfire.


2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human as well as during the 1st century AD when Jesus Christ was on earth.

In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.


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Likewise, in the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.

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In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.

sinbaalshaminshamash.jpg


3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?


4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER the resurrected Jesus Christ returned to heaven?


5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?


"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)


6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?


7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it.


8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings?

All religious ideas came out of the "beast", which is God's planned deception to keep His people from knowing the Truth while at the same time, teach His people how to build things until we had His microscope and telescope in these last days so He could teach us His infinite invisible Kingdom.

Hell belief, triune god, communion, water baptism, church buildings, golden altars, statues, choirs, sunday school, and all other physical things that man has to do with his hands are religious ideas from the "beast". There's no Truth in any of these things.

The only thing that God had man build from "Christ" was the ark of the covenant, which will never be rebuilt in the next age.

Jeremiah 3
14: Return, O faithless children, says the LORD; for I am your master; I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.
15: "`And I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.
16: And when you have multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, says the LORD, they shall no more say, "The ark of the covenant of the LORD." It shall not come to mind, or be remembered, or missed; it shall not be made again.
 
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ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

According to Christendom's Trinity, there are three persons that are co-equal and co-eternal and combined into a single "Godhead." According to the dogma, Jesus Christ (the Son) is co-equal and co-eternal with YHWH/Jehovah (the Father).

The Judeo-Christian Bible says the exact opposite. According to the Bible, Jehovah has always existed and Jesus Christ is his beloved son whom he created. In fact, the Bible repeatedly refers to Jesus Christ as "begotten son." By definition, someone who is "begotten" was created.
 
The Trinity may be a majority Christian belief, but it's hardly universal. There are non-Trinitarians.

I find it odd that God should create imperfect beings and then punish them eternally for being imperfect.
To my conservative brothers/sisters you'll never get a better opportunity than this one. LOL
 
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
I am a Christian and have the deepest respect for God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. I invite fellow Christians to participate in the questions for discussion. Two of the most basic teachings in Christendom are as follows:


1. THE TRINITY
The teaching that God is split up into three individual persons that are combined into one "Godhead" (Father, Son, and holy ghost/holy spirit). All three of these persons are said to be CO-EQUAL (meaning they have the same power) and CO-ETERNAL (meaning they have always existed at the same time and none of them can die).


2. HELLFIRE
The teaching that God will burn a person's soul in everlasting hellfire for committing wicked deeds. In other words, God will supposedly punish people forever in fiery flames of hell--despite the fact the crimes the persons committed were only done during the persons' brief human lifespan.


QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire? If so, present the scriptures by giving Bible book, chapter, and verse and also explain why you believe the scripture you present is talking about Trinity or literal hellfire.


2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human as well as during the 1st century AD when Jesus Christ was on earth.

In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.


thumbnail.aspx


Likewise, in the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.

thumbnail.aspx


In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.

sinbaalshaminshamash.jpg


3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?


4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER the resurrected Jesus Christ returned to heaven?


5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?


"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)


6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?


7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it.


8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings?
The Bible teaches 3 members in the Godhead. But it doesn't teach this triune stuff.
As far as hell goes. Why put yourself in a position to find out.
 
There is one Father. There are many sons on whom the Father puts his spirit. Moses, Noah, David are all sons of God who were overcome by the Spirit.
Jesus is the Lamb. A son of God on whom God put his Spirit. Sacrificed on the day of attonement for the sins of as many as believe. All the sons are one in spirit.
 
Actually God created man imperfect. He created man subject to vanity.


Rom_8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

God is well aware of this and has assumed full responsibility. He sent His Son to pay for the sins of man. Jesus paid the sin debt for all men, not just the saved men.

Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

1Ti_2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1Ti_4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Now, I admit that the vast majority of churches proclaim loudly that Christ failed and failed miserably in accomplishing the very mission the Father sent Him to accomplish.

1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Joh_4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Christ cannot be called the savior of the world if indeed He doesn't save the world.

He came right out and stated it plain enough for anyone to read and understand.


1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Why do you Christians not believe in our loving Savior?
 

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