Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

[Alter2Ego]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
I am a Christian and have the deepest respect for God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. I invite fellow Christians to participate in the questions for discussion. Two of the most basic teachings in Christendom are as follows:

1. THE TRINITY
The teaching that God is split up into three individual persons that are combined into one "Godhead" (Father, Son, and holy ghost/holy spirit). All three of these persons are said to be CO-EQUAL (meaning they have the same power) and CO-ETERNAL (meaning they have always existed at the same time and none of them can die).


2. HELLFIRE
The teaching that God will burn a person's soul in everlasting hellfire for committing wicked deeds. In other words, God will supposedly punish people forever in fiery flames of hell--despite the fact the crimes the persons committed were only done during the persons' brief human lifespan.


QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire? If so, present the scriptures by giving Bible book, chapter, and verse and also explain why you believe the scripture you present is talking about Trinity or literal hellfire.


2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human as well as during the 1st century AD when Jesus Christ was on earth.

In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.

Likewise, in the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.

In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.

3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?


4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER the resurrected Jesus Christ returned to heaven?


5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?

"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)


6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?


7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it.


8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings?

 

[Alter2Ego]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

If someone were to mention the two president Bushes and Jeb Bush (1) George H. Bush, Sr., (2) George W. Bush, Jr., and (3) Jeb Bush during the same sentence, does that mean they are talking about a trinity (meaning those two presidents and their son and brother, respectively, are combined into one person? That is what Christendom's trinity means: that there are three people combined into a single entity.

Using the example I just gave with the three men in the Bush family, the mention of God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the holy spirit within a single verse of scripture does not equate to three entities combined into one person. Remember, Christendom's version of a trinity was officially defined by the Roman Catholics about 300 years after Jesus' sacrificial death and his return to heavenly life. Jesus and his 12 apostles never promoted such a teaching.

 

[uscitizen]

The Bible was written by men.

 

[FactFinder]

As for hell, to my knowledge this is the most descriptive reference:

There was a certain man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate full of sores, and desiring to be fed the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table, moreover, the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receiveth thy good tidings, and likewise Lazarus evil things: But now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that they which would pass from hence to you, cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." Then he said, "I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldst send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren: that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment." Abraham said unto him, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." And he said, "Nay, father Abraham: But if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent." And he said unto him, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:19-31

As for Trinity:

Though people seem to stretch Jesus's words to greater length than perhaps He meant. I stand in undecision about Jesus as God. Jesus is a heavenly deity Who always deferred, reverenced The Father. That example for me shows a differentiation. I do believe that the Trinity as described is singular in purpose and love. If Jesus was God why would He have separated Himself from His followers on occasion to go pray? There would be noone to pray to.

I think many are stuck in the legacy of Constantinople

 

[AmericanFirst]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
I am a Christian and have the deepest respect for God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. I invite fellow Christians to participate in the questions for discussion. Two of the most basic teachings in Christendom are as follows:

1. THE TRINITY
The teaching that God is split up into three individual persons that are combined into one "Godhead" (Father, Son, and holy ghost/holy spirit). All three of these persons are said to be CO-EQUAL (meaning they have the same power) and CO-ETERNAL (meaning they have always existed at the same time and none of them can die).


2. HELLFIRE
The teaching that God will burn a person's soul in everlasting hellfire for committing wicked deeds. In other words, God will supposedly punish people forever in fiery flames of hell--despite the fact the crimes the persons committed were only done during the persons' brief human lifespan.


QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire? If so, present the scriptures by giving Bible book, chapter, and verse and also explain why you believe the scripture you present is talking about Trinity or literal hellfire.


2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human as well as during the 1st century AD when Jesus Christ was on earth.

In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.

Likewise, in the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.

In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.

3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?


4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER the resurrected Jesus Christ returned to heaven?


5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?

"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)


6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?


7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it.


8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings?

Read Revelation 20 verse 11 and following. It talks about the dead whose name is not written in the book of life being judged at the GREAT White Throne of Judgment. When a unbeliever dies his body and soul remain in the grave. When a believer dies, his body is in the grave but his soul goes to Heaven until the Rapture where his/her body is reunited in glory. This being said, an unbelievers body and soul are thrown into eternal torment. Don't take my word for it, read it yourself. Hope this helps.

 

[konradv]

The Trinity may be a majority Christian belief, but it's hardly universal. There are non-Trinitarians.

I find it odd that God should create imperfect beings and then punish them eternally for being imperfect.

 

[Alter2Ego]

As for hell, to my knowledge this is the most descriptive reference:

There was a certain man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate full of sores, and desiring to be fed the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table, moreover, the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receiveth thy good tidings, and likewise Lazarus evil things: But now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that they which would pass from hence to you, cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." Then he said, "I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldst send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren: that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment." Abraham said unto him, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." And he said, "Nay, father Abraham: But if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent." And he said unto him, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:19-31

ALTER2EGO -to- FACT FINDER:
The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus was an illustration aka a parable being given by Jesus Christ. In other words, it was not a literal event.

As for Trinity:

Though people seem to stretch Jesus's words to greater length than perhaps He meant. I stand in undecision about Jesus as God. Jesus is a heavenly deity Who always deferred, reverenced The Father. That example for me shows a differentiation. I do believe that the Trinity as described is singular in purpose and love. If Jesus was God why would He have separated Himself from His followers on occasion to go pray? There would be noone to pray to.

I think many are stuck in the legacy of Constantinople

ALTER2EGO -to- FACT FINDER:
The Trinity teaching is nowhere to be found in the God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. It was copied by the Catholics from pagan religions (meaning religions that did not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible). The pagan trinity became official church doctrine starting in the 3rd Century AD--more than 300 years after Jesus Christ left the earthly scene.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Read Revelation 20 verse 11 and following. It talks about the dead whose name is not written in the book of life being judged at the GREAT White Throne of Judgment. When a unbeliever dies his body and soul remain in the grave. When a believer dies, his body is in the grave but his soul goes to Heaven until the Rapture where his/her body is reunited in glory. This being said, an unbelievers body and soul are thrown into eternal torment. Don't take my word for it, read it yourself. Hope this helps.

ALTER2EGO -to- AMERICAN FIRST:
Most of the book of Revelation is written in symbolic language, meaning the expressions you are referring to above are figurative, not literal. In fact, the very first verse in the book of Revelation makes it clear that most of the language in which it is presented is not to be taken literally.

"A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and PRESENTED IT IN SIGNS through him to his slave John," (Revelation 1:1)


Below is the same scripture from the Aramaic Bible in Plain English.

"The Revelation of Yeshua The Messiah, which God gave to him, to show his Servants what had been given to soon occur, and HE SYMBOLIZED IT when he sent by his Angel to his Servant Yohannan," (Revelation 1:1 -- ABPE)

~***~​

 

[Alter2Ego]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

According to the trinity dogma, Almighty God Jehovah is split up into three persons who are combined into a single "Godhead". Not only does the word "Godhead" not belong in the Judeo-Christian Bible, but the scriptures do not support the false religious doctrine that says the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible is a triune god.

Below is a verse of scripture that demonstrates the idiocy of the trinity dogma.

"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool." (Psalms 110:1 -- King James Version)


"The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: 'Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet." (Psalms 110:1 -- New World Translation)


According to that scripture, Jehovah is literally talking to himself. During the conversation with himself, Jehovah puts himself on his own right hand and refers to the enemy of the son (Jesus) as "your" enemy (indicating the enemy is Jesus' enemy and not Jehovah's), rather than using the possessive "our enemy"



That verse of scripture alone makes it clear that Jehovah and Jesus Christ could not possibly be part of a 3-prong god.

 

[mjollnir]

I asked a Paraguayan woman.

She gave me a hat.

 

[biblical]

Genesis 1:26(AMP) - God said, Let Us(Father, Son & Holy Spirit) make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness......

'Us' and 'Our' are plural, which means within God there are three entities but they are also one. God the Father is the most senior within the Godhead, followed by Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Revelations 21:8(NKJV) - But the unbelieving...........shall have their part in the lake, which burns with fire and brimstone.....

If you believe the Bible, hell is real and everyone that does not believe in Jesus or does not accept Him as Lord and Savior by being born again from spiritual death to spiritual life, will end up in that lake of fire.

 

[turzovka]

Are you suggesting that anything less than an eternal hell is no big deal? That is, if one has to suffer for only a billion years in torment, we can now accept God’s teachings? I am not sure what larger point you are trying to make here?

No, I cannot answer your troubling question and so far no one else can either, but God does say “My ways are not your ways” and that leaves the answer to this question for another time and dimension. C.S. Lewis intimated that hell may exist because heaven is pure holiness and cannot allow one defiled molecule into its presence. Must God then do so to an unrepentant sinner because the sinner refuses to give up his selfish “needs” yet still expect God to give up His needs? Perhaps one day that sinner may change (we cannot know) but if they never do then they never will. I don’t know, but I do know God has revealed enough for us to know what He asks of us, and for us to dismiss all that because He has not reconciled the hell question for us is being too demanding towards someone who gave us life and eternal life. Humility is the missing virtue here, IMO.

As far as the trinity is concerned, again, not a huge barrier for me. It does not change the Word for salvation which is what really matters. But just for the musing, if Jesus can listen to the prayers of one million individual souls all at once, then as far as I am concerned his already one million persons in one being. Which is far greater than three.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Genesis 1:26(AMP) - God said, Let Us(Father, Son & Holy Spirit) make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness......

'Us' and 'Our' are plural, which means within God there are three entities but they are also one. God the Father is the most senior within the Godhead, followed by Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Revelations 21:8(NKJV) - But the unbelieving...........shall have their part in the lake, which burns with fire and brimstone.....

If you believe the Bible, hell is real and everyone that does not believe in Jesus or does not accept Him as Lord and Savior by being born again from spiritual death to spiritual life, will end up in that lake of fire.

ALTER2EGO -to- BIBLICAL:
Please show the forum where Genesis 1:26 is with reference to Father, Son & Holy Spirit. We know that's what you believe, but you need to back up your claims with evidence. So be sure and provide the forum with scriptures from anywhere in the Judeo-Christian Bible that confirms what you wrote above, which I bolded in red. Remember, anybody can choose to believe anything, especially traditions of men that are passed off as Bible teachings. However, if the religious doctrine is not found in the Bible, it amounts to false religious teaching.

 

[tonystewart1]

John states that the word was in the begining it was with God and it was God. V2 the same was in the begining with God. v14 the word was made flesh and dewlt among us. We know that in the new testement that Jesus is refered to as the light of the world. The first chapter of Gensis v3 and 4 God said let their be light and there was light (Jesus).

The first 2 members of the god head can be seen in the bible from the begining. I know that the holy ghost is in Exodus but I will have to look it up. Of course the this third part of the God head comes to earth to stay after Jesus acends as a comfortor.

 

[Glensather]

Genesis 1:26(AMP) - God said, Let Us(Father, Son & Holy Spirit) make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness......

'Us' and 'Our' are plural, which means within God there are three entities but they are also one. God the Father is the most senior within the Godhead, followed by Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

I always assumed that the "we" referred to Angels.

 

[konradv]

Genesis 1:26(AMP) - God said, Let Us(Father, Son & Holy Spirit) make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness......

'Us' and 'Our' are plural, which means within God there are three entities but they are also one. God the Father is the most senior within the Godhead, followed by Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

I always assumed that the "we" referred to Angels.

Aren't they the "other gods" of the 10 Commandments? It's not that they don't exist, it's just that YHWH demands to be first. Remember, He says he's a "jealous God". Can one be jealous of something that doesn't exist? That would be kind of psychotic, wouldn't it?

 

[Alter2Ego]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

In 325 C.E., the "Christianized" Romans aka Roman Catholics officially defined the trinity teaching that is the central doctrine of most of the 41,000 denominations within Christendom. The dogma of a 3-prong god that had previously been found only in pagan religions was thereafter an official "Christian" teaching.

 

[LittleNipper]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

In 325 C.E., the "Christianized" Romans aka Roman Catholics officially defined the trinity teaching that is the central doctrine of most of the 41,000 denominations within Christendom. The dogma of a 3-prong god that had previously been found only in pagan religions was thereafter an official "Christian" teaching.

Baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Holy, Holy, Holy!

The pagans believed in seperate and unequal gods. Each city felt its own diety was stronger then the rest.

The trinity is the only doctrine among other religions that promotes the ideology that GOD is the united sum of three individual beings. And that together they constitute one GOD or GODHEAD. Together they are ONE in all measure.

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

In 325 C.E., the "Christianized" Romans aka Roman Catholics officially defined the trinity teaching that is the central doctrine of most of the 41,000 denominations within Christendom. The dogma of a 3-prong god that had previously been found only in pagan religions was thereafter an official "Christian" teaching.

Baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Holy, Holy, Holy!

The pagans believed in seperate and unequal gods. Each city felt its own diety was stronger then the rest.

The trinity is the only doctrine among other religions that promotes the ideology that GOD is the united sum of three individual beings. And that together they constitute one GOD or GODHEAD. Together they are ONE in all measure.

Then what is the importance of the Trinity? It seems a moot issue. If a person is worshiping one, then he/she is worshiping all, and vice versa. Most lessons of scripture, whether I get them or not, at least appear to have some sort of overall value, whereas the concept of the Trinity appears to have no value. There doesn't seem to be anything to be derived, learned, or gained from believing in it. It seems at best an unimportant concept, that is, if I am a Christian, do I burn in hell for worshiping one God and not acknowledging the Trinity? It would appear not, so what is the point?

 

[LittleNipper]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

In 325 C.E., the "Christianized" Romans aka Roman Catholics officially defined the trinity teaching that is the central doctrine of most of the 41,000 denominations within Christendom. The dogma of a 3-prong god that had previously been found only in pagan religions was thereafter an official "Christian" teaching.

Baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Holy, Holy, Holy!

The pagans believed in seperate and unequal gods. Each city felt its own diety was stronger then the rest.

The trinity is the only doctrine among other religions that promotes the ideology that GOD is the united sum of three individual beings. And that together they constitute one GOD or GODHEAD. Together they are ONE in all measure.

Then what is the importance of the Trinity? It seems a moot issue. If a person is worshiping one, then he/she is worshiping all, and vice versa. Most lessons of scripture, whether I get them or not, at least appear to have some sort of overall value, whereas the concept of the Trinity appears to have no value. There doesn't seem to be anything to be derived, learned, or gained from believing in it. It seems at best an unimportant concept, that is, if I am a Christian, do I burn in hell for worshiping one God and not acknowledging the Trinity? It would appear not, so what is the point?

The importance of the Trinity is that God took on a human form, was born and lived a human existance. Then at the perfect time this God/man became sin so that man is no longer under the curse of separation from God ----- IF a man will acknowledge his sin and accept Christ as Lord, seeking forgivness. God saved man HIMSELF and did not send some creature He created to carry out such a horrific task. God, in fact, actually walked in our shoes for a moment in history. However, being God in the flesh, he did so with perfection and was not tempted of satan. Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. I also believe that Christ will remain in His glorified human form for all eternity. He is now the illustrated prototype of what all saved humans will become someday.