Beware of the "Christian" zionist cult. . . .

[rtwngAvngr]

And humankind finds the cures.

Do you think humans are better than god? Do you think god is dumb?

 

[Diuretic]

Do you think humans are better than god? Do you think god is dumb?

If I said I thought that humans were better than God I would offend people. If I said I thought God was dumb I would offend people. I have a friend who says I'm too soft because I don't take on believers head-on (the religion doesn't matter, he's an equal opportunity atheist and puts all deists under one heading). But regardless of what he thinks I don't insult people because of their religious beliefs and I don't insult the objects of their veneration. That goes for all religions.

Since I don't believe in a god your questions aren't relevant to me, but I'm sure you'll make something of my response that suits you, so go ahead. Just don't mistake my being reasonable for anything other than what it is - me being reasonable.

In the meantime let me explain my response to your post.

You posted that "God allows all kinds of diseases and plagues." You might have also added that God allows wars, famines, tsunamis, earthquakes - see where this is going? It's God's will. Or it's the will of Allah. Either way it's from the same school of thought.

So to examine your position I pointed out that humans find the cures and antidotes to diseases and plagues.

Now let me ask you a question. Do you believe that we are opposing God's will by finding cures and antidotes? Or do you believe that we are in fact living up to what God expects of us, that we, when tested by diseases and plagues, find the knowledge to overcome these things?

 

[Shamgar]

The return to Israel is just the beginning of the prophecied gathering of Israel. Judah will likely for the most part remain in unbelief until the prophecy is fulfilled and Christ comes splitting the Mount of Olives twain. Then they will ask what the marks in His hands and feet are and He will respond 'Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.' (Zech 13:6)

Tell me do you think Israel could be gathered one iota if God wanted otherwise?

Tell me what is the name of the prophet or the name of the person who received the angelic announcement that signaled the END of the punishment period for the cursed jews? Since in order for your literalist cult propagada to be true this would have had to occur. . .which of course never happened.

Judge 6: 1 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD: and the LORD delivered them into the hand of Midian seven years. 2 And the hand of Midian prevailed against Israel: and because of the Midianites the children of Israel made them the dens which are in the mountains, and caves, and strong holds. (prevailed: Heb. was strong) 3 And so it was, when Israel had sown, that the Midianites came up, and the Amalekites, and the children of the east, even they came up against them; 4 And they encamped against them, and destroyed the increase of the earth, till thou come unto Gaza, and left no sustenance for Israel, neither sheep, nor ox, nor ass. (sheep: or goat) 5 For they came up with their cattle and their tents, and they came as grasshoppers for multitude; for both they and their camels were without number: and they entered into the land to destroy it. 6 And Israel was greatly impoverished because of the Midianites; and the children of Israel cried unto the LORD.
7 And it came to pass, when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD because of the Midianites, 8 That the LORD sent a prophet unto the children of Israel, which said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I brought you up from Egypt, and brought you forth out of the house of bondage; (a prophet: Heb. a man a prophet) 9 And I delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of all that oppressed you, and drave them out from before you, and gave you their land; 10 And I said unto you, I am the LORD your God; fear not the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but ye have not obeyed my voice.
11 And there came an angel of the LORD, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites. (Gideon: Gr. Gedeon) (to hide...: Heb. to cause it to flee) 12 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.

---------------------
3. Many of us assumed that Christian Zionism exists in fundamentalist and Evangelical churches only. Upon closer observation, we discovered that in reality Christian Zionism has permeated Christians within mainline churches as well among Catholics and the Orthodox in various level and forms. It is an unconscious and superficial response to any Bible reading by people who have not the benefit of theological education or have not studied the Bible carefully and so accept things uncritically simply because they are written in the Bible. This means that our problem is not only with extremist evangelicals; it is with good hearted but ignorant Christians who need to be informed and educated.

Ateek, Naim, et al editors. “Challenging Christian Zionism: Theology, Politics and the Israel-Palestinian Conflict” (London:2005) Page 16.

------------------

Jews are not alone in their high rates of exogamy. American hyphenated Greeks, Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Poles, Czechoslovakians, Italians are undergoing high levels of intermarriage. But there are differences. They have a higher birthrates than Jews;Jews are the oldest mean-aged ethnic group in America; the Jewish birthrate barely matches its mortality rate; all this within two generations of our having lost fully one-third of our numbers in Hitler's war against us. In Argentina , where anti-Semitism seems endemic, the number of practicing Jews has declined from 500,000 to 300,000 in the last generation. The decline, ironically, is not attributed to anti-Semitism per se as to assimilation-------itself the product of weakening Jewish educational institutions.

Nathan Perlmutter and Ruth Ann Perlmutter. “The Real Anti-Semitism In America” (New York: 1982) page 291.

ex·og·a·my Audio pronunciation of "exogamy" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (k-sg-m)
n.

1. The custom of marrying outside the tribe, family, clan, or other social unit.
2.Biology. The fusion of two gametes that are not closely related.

“And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God. And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it. And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:” Deuteronomy 28:62-65

“Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle.” Deuteronomy 7:14

“Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.” Matthew 27:25

”And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation. And the children of Israel were fruitful, and increased abundantly, and multiplied, and waxed exceeding mighty; and the land was filled with them. Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph. And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we: Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies, and fight against us, and so get them up out of the land.” Exodus 1:6-10

. . .and since you are so interested in what the jews teach here is what the jews say about the return of the jews. . . .

“In line with this idea of contract, the Jewish tradition attributes the exile of the Jews from the Land to their abandoning Torah commandments. The tradition does not view Jews as hapless victims, but rather as makers of their own fate. Maimonides and other classical sources indicate that the way back to the Land of Israel is Teshuvah, i.e. repentance and return to the commandments. Since the reason for exile is not attributed to the superior strength of the Roman legions, the redress for exile is not and should not be sought in developing a mightier army. In fact, the Talmud (BT Ketubot, 111a) refers to oaths that the Jews were to swear prior to their second exile, in which they are enjoined not to rebel against the nations and to re-occupy the Land of Israel by force. Given this tradition, some Judaic scholars see Israel's military exploits not as a sign of impending messianic redemption but rather as a blasphemous act of rebellion.”
A Glimmer of Hope, A State of All Its Citizens, by Yakov M. Rabkin
Source: http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/index.cfm/action/tikkun/issue/tik0207/article/020711f.html
Published in Tikkun: A Bimonthly Jewish Critique of Politics, Culture & Society
July/Aug 2002 || http://www.tikkun.org

A Glimmer of Hope, A State of All Its Citizens, by Yakov M. Rabkin

 

[GotZoom]

I would pay big money to back you in a "cut-and-paste" contest.

Do you have any thoughts of your own? Everything you say is from someone else.

I would love to hear YOUR thoughts Shammy.

Can you even make a post without quoting someone else?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

If I said I thought that humans were better than God I would offend people. If I said I thought God was dumb I would offend people. I have a friend who says I'm too soft because I don't take on believers head-on (the religion doesn't matter, he's an equal opportunity atheist and puts all deists under one heading). But regardless of what he thinks I don't insult people because of their religious beliefs and I don't insult the objects of their veneration. That goes for all religions.

Since I don't believe in a god your questions aren't relevant to me, but I'm sure you'll make something of my response that suits you, so go ahead. Just don't mistake my being reasonable for anything other than what it is - me being reasonable.

In the meantime let me explain my response to your post.

You posted that "God allows all kinds of diseases and plagues." You might have also added that God allows wars, famines, tsunamis, earthquakes - see where this is going? It's God's will. Or it's the will of Allah. Either way it's from the same school of thought.

So to examine your position I pointed out that humans find the cures and antidotes to diseases and plagues.

Now let me ask you a question. Do you believe that we are opposing God's will by finding cures and antidotes? Or do you believe that we are in fact living up to what God expects of us, that we, when tested by diseases and plagues, find the knowledge to overcome these things?

Your friends right, you're a wimp.

And I basically agree with you; just because god allows something, doesn't mean we have to support it.

 

[Shamgar]

I would pay big money to back you in a "cut-and-paste" contest. Do you have any thoughts of your own? Everything you say is from someone else. I would love to hear YOUR thoughts Shammy. Can you even make a post without quoting someone else?

Yawn. . . . so you have "original thoughts"? So they are completely devoid of influence from gurus, political action groups, books, television. . .etc. . . .so when did they let you out of the bubble or are you still encased? Btw thanks for your unsubstantiated opinion. . . .

unsubstantiated adj: not supported or proven by evidence.

Unsubstantiated adj: unverified: not proven factually

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Ecc 1:9

Yet despite their individual and psychological issues, dispensationalists who used the Protocols [Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion] believed that the document matched their understanding of prophesy.
Timothy P. Weber, “On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend” (Grand Rapids: 2004) Page 152.

Rank-and-file dispensationalists were forgiving and forgetful during the decades between the wars. They stuck by their leaders even when they misread the signs of the times. The Bible teachers did not seem especially bothered by their failures either. Events were changing fast so there was little time for apologies.

Timothy P. Weber, “On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend” (Grand Rapids: 2004) Page 93.

Those who had see the nonaggression pact as the beginning of the northern confederacy were stunned. In response to this reversal of fortunes, there was “just one big awkward silence” from the prophetic experts.(88) One exception was the Weekly Evangel: “There are some prophets who are suffering no casualties. They are inspired writers of Bible prophesy. Their words shall be fulfilled. We may err when wee forecast just how and when they will be fulfilled, but God's own time the entire prophetic plan shall be complete.

Timothy P. Weber, “On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend” (Grand Rapids: 2004) Page 92-93.

 

[Diuretic]

Your friends right, you're a wimp.

And I basically agree with you; just because god allows something, doesn't mean we have to support it.

Adolescence must be painful still. Your inability to respond without personal remarks is a mark of adolescence. But not to worry, you'll grow out of it. If, however, it's been a long time since puberty then you have some problems and you really need to see a professional.

And while you're seeing that professional you may also ask about your inability to comprehend simple phrases constructed so that a child of average intelligence can understand the ideas contained therein and respond appropriately. You appear to have a major problem with understanding very straightforward ideas.

Your avatar, a comic figure, appears to have more rationality than you, the poster, perhaps you, the poseur, is more appropriate.

I think, on reflection, that you are an adolescent, not too many adults I know are capable of representing themselves consistently in such a foolish manner.

Given you are an adolescent then, I shall grant you a dispensation.

I've pointed out your foolishness, now do something about it.

Either that or find a forum where you can practise Leet with the others and leave adults to discuss things among themselves.

Now run along.

 

[GotZoom]

Yawn. . . . so you have "original thoughts"? So they are completely devoid of influence from gurus, political action groups, books, television. . .etc. . . .so when did they let you out of the bubble or are you still encased? Btw thanks for your unsubstantiated opinion. . . .

unsubstantiated adj: not supported or proven by evidence.

Unsubstantiated adj: unverified: not proven factually

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Ecc 1:9

Yet despite their individual and psychological issues, dispensationalists who used the Protocols [Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion] believed that the document matched their understanding of prophesy.
Timothy P. Weber, “On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend” (Grand Rapids: 2004) Page 152.

Rank-and-file dispensationalists were forgiving and forgetful during the decades between the wars. They stuck by their leaders even when they misread the signs of the times. The Bible teachers did not seem especially bothered by their failures either. Events were changing fast so there was little time for apologies.

Timothy P. Weber, “On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend” (Grand Rapids: 2004) Page 93.

Those who had see the nonaggression pact as the beginning of the northern confederacy were stunned. In response to this reversal of fortunes, there was “just one big awkward silence” from the prophetic experts.(88) One exception was the Weekly Evangel: “There are some prophets who are suffering no casualties. They are inspired writers of Bible prophesy. Their words shall be fulfilled. We may err when wee forecast just how and when they will be fulfilled, but God's own time the entire prophetic plan shall be complete.

Timothy P. Weber, “On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend” (Grand Rapids: 2004) Page 92-93.

I can do it too.


I can't believe that out of 10,000 sperm, you were the quickest.

--Steven Pearl

The problem with the gene pool is that there's no lifeguard.

--David Gerrold

Ha! I got your hat! Take that, hatless! Now go back to the quad and resume your hackey sac tourney! I'm not gonna lay down for some frat boy bastard with his damn Teva sandals and his Skoal Bandits and his Abercrombie and Fitch long sleeved, open stitched, crew neck Henley smoking his sticky buds out of a soda can while watching his favorite downloaded Simpsons episodes every night! Yes, we all love "Mr. Plow"! Oh, you've got the song memorized, do you? SO DOES EVERYONE ELSE! That is exactly the kind of idiot you see at Taco Bell at 1 in the morning! The guy who just whiffed his way down the bar skank ladder!

--Stewie, Family Guy

Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.

--Homer Simpson

And just for you - from Tolstoy:

He never chooses an opinion; he just wears whatever happens to be in style.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Adolescence must be painful still. Your inability to respond without personal remarks is a mark of adolescence. But not to worry, you'll grow out of it. If, however, it's been a long time since puberty then you have some problems and you really need to see a professional.

And while you're seeing that professional you may also ask about your inability to comprehend simple phrases constructed so that a child of average intelligence can understand the ideas contained therein and respond appropriately. You appear to have a major problem with understanding very straightforward ideas.

Your avatar, a comic figure, appears to have more rationality than you, the poster, perhaps you, the poseur, is more appropriate.

I think, on reflection, that you are an adolescent, not too many adults I know are capable of representing themselves consistently in such a foolish manner.

Given you are an adolescent then, I shall grant you a dispensation.

I've pointed out your foolishness, now do something about it.

Either that or find a forum where you can practise Leet with the others and leave adults to discuss things among themselves.

Now run along.

Funny then, how you end up looking foolish in our every verbal transaction.

 

[5stringJeff]

Yawn. . . . so you have "original thoughts"? So they are completely devoid of influence from gurus, political action groups, books, television. . .etc. . . .so when did they let you out of the bubble or are you still encased? Btw thanks for your unsubstantiated opinion. . . .

unsubstantiated adj: not supported or proven by evidence.

Unsubstantiated adj: unverified: not proven factually

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Ecc 1:9

Yet despite their individual and psychological issues, dispensationalists who used the Protocols [Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion] believed that the document matched their understanding of prophesy.
Timothy P. Weber, “On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend” (Grand Rapids: 2004) Page 152.

Rank-and-file dispensationalists were forgiving and forgetful during the decades between the wars. They stuck by their leaders even when they misread the signs of the times. The Bible teachers did not seem especially bothered by their failures either. Events were changing fast so there was little time for apologies.

Timothy P. Weber, “On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend” (Grand Rapids: 2004) Page 93.

Those who had see the nonaggression pact as the beginning of the northern confederacy were stunned. In response to this reversal of fortunes, there was “just one big awkward silence” from the prophetic experts.(88) One exception was the Weekly Evangel: “There are some prophets who are suffering no casualties. They are inspired writers of Bible prophesy. Their words shall be fulfilled. We may err when wee forecast just how and when they will be fulfilled, but God's own time the entire prophetic plan shall be complete.

Timothy P. Weber, “On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend” (Grand Rapids: 2004) Page 92-93.

Interesting how you can quote Timothy Weber over and over and over, but you can't reply to one simple post regarding Biblical passages.

 

[Shamgar]

Interesting how you can quote Timothy Weber over and over and over, but you can't reply to one simple post regarding Biblical passages.

Interesting that I don't typically waste my time responding to drones whose only response boils down to "Is not!". . . ."Is not!". .. . "Is not!". .. . . :baby:

A second key used by Christian Zionists is that Biblical interpretation and Israel are closely interrelated. The idea is that if people read the Bible without giving Israel its right position, they will lost and talk nonsense. And, of course, this has been increasingly accentuated after the establishment of the State of Israel. The finger of God is viewed as directly related to the special privileges of Israel. At the same time, Israel is the center of destiny for all humanity.

Ateek, Naim, et al editors. “Challenging Christian Zionism: Theology, Politics and the Israel-Palestinian Conflict” (London:2005) Page 76.

 

[5stringJeff]

So I see that you have no real answer to a Biblical rebuttal, and can only form one-sentence replies before reverting back to quoting those who follow a warped form of Christianity.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

So I see that you have no real answer to a Biblical rebuttal, and can only form one-sentence replies before reverting back to quoting those who follow a warped form of Christianity.

I wasn't really paying attention to that part of the discussion. if you'd like to make a valid point anew, I'll listen.

 

[jillian]

Interesting that I don't typically waste my time responding to drones whose only response boils down to "Is not!". . . ."Is not!". .. . "Is not!". .. . . :baby:

As opposed to pseudo-intellectual drones who nurse conspiracy theories and whose only arguments are the arguments of others which boil down to "is to!...is too!! is too!!!?????"

 

[Shamgar]

So I see that you have no real answer to a Biblical rebuttal, and can only form one-sentence replies before reverting back to quoting those who follow a warped form of Christianity.

It appears you see very little since your :baby: "Is Not!". . . . ."Is Not!". . . . ."Is Not!". . . . .is hardly a "rebuttal". . . .as I have yet to find "Is Not!". . . . ."Is Not!". . . . ."Is Not!". . . . .found in the Scriptures. . . maybe you scrawled them in your copy but that doesn't count . . . . .

As the coming of a Jewish state looked inevitable, most dispensationalists were willing to make the needed adjustment in their interpretation. The Sunday School Times early concluded that the Jewish restoration included an initial return in unbelief.(37) Even Arno C. Gaebelein, who for years had insisted that Zionism was not the fulfillment of biblical prophecy, was willing to endorse a Zionist stat3e as a first step toward the authentic fulfillment: “That the Jewish people will be restored to the land in the end is inevitable, since God has so decreed in His Word (Jer 23:7-8). That restoration will be a restoration in faith. Now the Jews are seeking to go to Palestine in unbelief. Is there Scripture that leads us to suppose that their efforts will succeed? Yes, although we do not know when it will be.”(38)
Timothy P. Weber, “On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend” (Grand Rapids: 2004) Page 169.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

As opposed to pseudo-intellectual drones who nurse conspiracy theories and whose only arguments are the arguments of others which boil down to "is to!...is too!! is too!!!?????"

What part is not clear to you? Jews support for israel, or jew influence in our national policy?

 

[5stringJeff]

It appears you see very little since your :baby: "Is Not!". . . . ."Is Not!". . . . ."Is Not!". . . . .is hardly a "rebuttal". . . .as I have yet to find "Is Not!". . . . ."Is Not!". . . . ."Is Not!". . . . .found in the Scriptures. . . maybe you scrawled them in your copy but that doesn't count . . . . .

I likewise cannot find the verses in my Bible which direct me to hate the Jews, as you apparently do. Are they in your Timothy "KKK" Weber Translation?