Best Peace Plan I have heard - From a Palestinian American

"The two situations are nothing alike." -Mother Theresa.

Perhaps it looked that way from Calcutta.

I purposefully quoted individuals and organizations prominent in South Africa or Israel, many of whom experienced apartheid directly. When the architect of the system himself makes his diagnosis, there's simply no denying it. Israel is an apartheid state.

You quoted a bunch of politically interested persons who have a stake in making that connection. That is not proof of anything, other than that people can twist what they want to achieve their ends.
I could go on and on showing the differences but that would be superfluous here. Anyone who is convinced that the two are identical is already too far removed from reality.

What is Apartheid? The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (1998) defines apartheid as inhumane acts “committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.”

Some examples:

The water situation - in a desert country water is a resource rivaling gold. Israel gets 4/5 of the West Bank's aquifer water. Israelis use 240 cubic metres of water a person each year, against 75 cubic metres for West Bank Palestinians and 125 for Gazans. That is quite a discrepency. In a desert - would controling water, even to the point of destroying wells (as was discussed in another thread) be "inhumane" and "supression"?

Education - This also was brought up in another thread. There is a gross inequality in funding for Arab and Jewish education. Schools are for the most part seperate (to the point where one Arab child had to go to court to attend a Jewish school that was much closer to her). Arab schools often lack of basic learning facilities like libraries, computers, science laboratories, recreation space. Palestinian teachers have lower qualifications and lower salaries then Jewish teachers and surprisingly than non-Palistinian Arab teachers.

The Wall along with the system of roads and checkpoints - it is well known the wall creates de-facto seperation of Palestinians from Jews and even from portions of their own lands forcing them to travel miles out of the way to reach farmlands. Roads exist that are for Jews only which are denied to Palestinians.

Right of return: Right of return is for Jews only - a person with one Jewish grandparent anywhere in the world can settle on land that has been taken from Arabs inside Israel or on Palestinian land in the occupied territories. Palestinians are denied the right to return to homes and lands that have been taken from them in Israel.

Limits on growth of Arab communities: Since Israel's founding, many new communities have been founded for Jews, but almost none for Palestinians resulting in severe residential overcrowding. In addition many Palestinian villages remain unrecognized by the government, and receive no running water, electricity, or access roads and are subject to demolition. Hand in hand with this is the fact that all land in Israel must be leased - it is not privately owned. The Israeli Land Administration controls 93% of the arable land in Israel which is either either state-owned (80%) or owned by the Jewish National Fund (13%).

In addition you have the very real discrimmination that occurs in everyday life in jobs and social arenas....unequal protection in time of war (many Arab villages don't even have a bomb shelter), inequal compensation in deaths from military conflicts and more but it would take too much space to discuss.

There are some valid comparisons to apartheid. Yes, there are differences but in the end - which are greater - the differences or similarities?

What matters is what happens in the end - is aparthied created through deliberate design or unintended consequences of political policies?

When asking the question of whether it is occuring as a result of deliberate design it might be helpful to look at the words of some of the major actors in Israel's creation and history. Expressed, many times was the intention of "cleansing" the land of Arabs - not co-existence. Records of more private conversations show that contrary to public statements many leading Israeli political figures were very aware that they were not taking over an unpopulated land but one populated by Arabs. Ben-Gurion expressed an interesting sympathy with their resistance and an undestanding of the motivations though that of course did not change his views concerning destiny.

For example: "What Israeli Historians Say About 1948 Ethnic Cleansing" in Washington Report on Middle East Affairs (September 1999)

Regarding the Galilee, Mr. Sharett already told you that about 100,000 Arabs still now live in the pocket of Galilee. Let us assume that a war breaks out. Then we will be able to cleanse the entire area of Central Galilee, including all its refugees, in one stroke. In this context let me mention some mediators who offered to give us the Galilee without war. What they meant was the populated Galilee. They didn’t offer us the empty Galilee, which we could have only by means of a war. Therefore if a war is extended to cover the whole of Palestine, our greatest gain will be the Galilee. It is because without any special military effort which might imperil other fronts, only by using the troops already assigned for the task, we could accomplish our aim of cleansing the Galilee.​

It is pretty clear that from the beginning there was little intent to co-exist with the Arab population and an intent to grab as much land as they could and hold on to it. You could argue that meant intent to create apartheid conditions but I'm not sure - I think in that time it was anticipated that the native population would be absorbed by other Arab countries thus neatly taking care of the "problem". This rather resembles the rationale to send freed slaves back to Africa (Liberia) or even, early in Hitlers campaign, when he planned on exporting Jews to Israel as the solution.

There are many more recent quotes indicating a disdain and out right dislike of Arab and Palestinian populations that seem to indicate that while "apartheid" was not the original intention, it is the current intention of some.
 
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Perhaps it looked that way from Calcutta.

I purposefully quoted individuals and organizations prominent in South Africa or Israel, many of whom experienced apartheid directly. When the architect of the system himself makes his diagnosis, there's simply no denying it. Israel is an apartheid state.

You quoted a bunch of politically interested persons who have a stake in making that connection. That is not proof of anything, other than that people can twist what they want to achieve their ends.
I could go on and on showing the differences but that would be superfluous here. Anyone who is convinced that the two are identical is already too far removed from reality.

What is Apartheid? The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (1998) defines apartheid as inhumane acts “committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.”

.

Question: What race are the Palestinians?

Major FAIL.
 
You quoted a bunch of politically interested persons who have a stake in making that connection. That is not proof of anything, other than that people can twist what they want to achieve their ends.
I could go on and on showing the differences but that would be superfluous here. Anyone who is convinced that the two are identical is already too far removed from reality.

What is Apartheid? The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (1998) defines apartheid as inhumane acts “committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.”

.

Question: What race are the Palestinians?

Major FAIL.

More semantical games. Major DISHONESTY.

If you insist on dishonest games, I'll play.

Does "racial group" mean the same as "race" when it comes to international human rights law such as we are talking about?

Race is defined as "a group of people of common ancestry, distinguished from others by physical characteristics such as hair type, colour of eyes and skin, stature etc". (Collins English Dictionary) Ethnic is defined as "relating to or characteristic of a human group having racial, religious, linguistic and certain other traits in common". (Collins English dictionary)

In international human rights law the term race is generally used in a broader sense and often blurs with other distinctions between groups of people based on religion, ethnicity, social groupings, language and culture. The term "race" in human rights law is sometimes used to encompass groups which may not fall into distinctive biological racial groupings, for example caste systems in India and Japan.


Now, are you capable of arguing the points being made or are you going to continue to obfuscate on minutiae?
 
Question was answered.


I'm so sorry you are incapable of comprehending the answer.

Please show where you answered the question.

I repeat: What race are the Palestinians?

Xanthochroi


Now. What has that to do with similarities to apartheid or are you going to continue to duck and weave?

OK, so you didn't answer the question, despite maintaining you did.
But now you have answered the question.
Let's try another:
What race are the Israelis?
 
Please show where you answered the question.

I repeat: What race are the Palestinians?

Xanthochroi


Now. What has that to do with similarities to apartheid or are you going to continue to duck and weave?

OK, so you didn't answer the question, despite maintaining you did.
But now you have answered the question.
Let's try another:
What race are the Israelis?

I did answer it.

Now, I think, it's your turn to address my questions.
 
Xanthochroi


Now. What has that to do with similarities to apartheid or are you going to continue to duck and weave?

OK, so you didn't answer the question, despite maintaining you did.
But now you have answered the question.
Let's try another:
What race are the Israelis?

I did answer it.

Now, I think, it's your turn to address my questions.

We're getting to it. I would ask where you had answered it previously but there's no point going there.
So let's try again: What race are the Israelis?
 
OK, so you didn't answer the question, despite maintaining you did.
But now you have answered the question.
Let's try another:
What race are the Israelis?

I did answer it.

Now, I think, it's your turn to address my questions.

We're getting to it. I would ask where you had answered it previously but there's no point going there.
So let's try again: What race are the Israelis?

That's two questions.

Please refer back to my post of what "race" means in terms of international law and human rights and provide a suitable response.

No more freebies.
 
I did answer it.

Now, I think, it's your turn to address my questions.

We're getting to it. I would ask where you had answered it previously but there's no point going there.
So let's try again: What race are the Israelis?

That's two questions.

Please refer back to my post of what "race" means in terms of international law and human rights and provide a suitable response.

No more freebies.

Can't answer that one, eh?

Because you know the answer. The answer is the Israelis and the Palestinians are the same race. Ergo it cannot be apartheid.
What it is is the self-preservation of a country inhabited by people who have not enjoyed their own political existence for 2k years and are now under siege by a murderous tribe that thinks nothing of blowing up their own women and children, much less their enemy's. As such it is not comparable to any other conflict.
Thanks for playing. On to the next subject.
 
We're getting to it. I would ask where you had answered it previously but there's no point going there.
So let's try again: What race are the Israelis?

That's two questions.

Please refer back to my post of what "race" means in terms of international law and human rights and provide a suitable response.

No more freebies.

Can't answer that one, eh?

Nope. I simply expect answers in return. Can't give them eh?

Because you know the answer. The answer is the Israelis and the Palestinians are the same race. Ergo it cannot be apartheid.

Answer the question. What is race? In international human rights law the term race is generally used in a broader sense and often blurs with other distinctions between groups of people based on religion, ethnicity, social groupings, language and culture. The term "race" in human rights law is sometimes used to encompass groups which may not fall into distinctive biological racial groupings, for example caste systems in India and Japan.

Now, maybe you will use some other more narrow and selfserving definition of "race" to make your point, but that begs the question doesn't it? It means you are willing to dance around (or excuse) the actual issues rather than address them.

So tell me Rabbi....do you have the balls to address the issues or are you stuck on semantic games?

What it is is the self-preservation of a country inhabited by people who have not enjoyed their own political existence for 2k years and are now under siege by a murderous tribe that thinks nothing of blowing up their own women and children, much less their enemy's. As such it is not comparable to any other conflict.
Thanks for playing. On to the next subject.

Oh yes...the old "Israel is a victim" ploy.

Tell me Rabbi....does that grant a free license for Israel to victinize another group of people in turn then?
 
International human rights law? You're joking, right? These are the same jokers that consistently get together to condemn Israel while ignoring real human rights violations.
Don't even go there.

Anyway, you can define a dog as a cat, but it doesnt make it so. You can define Palestinians as a race separate from teh Israelis, but it doesn't make it so either. Who is playing semantic games now?

What were teh aims of apartheid? What are the aims of Zionism? WHat rigths did blacks enjoy under Apartheid? What rights do Palestinians enjoy in Israel?
Hmm, not looking too good for your argument now, is it? I think you might want to reconsider. In fact, I think you might want to go commit suicide out of shame for being a tool of the Israel-haters on this board and aiding and abetting terrorism.
 
International human rights law? You're joking, right? These are the same jokers that consistently get together to condemn Israel while ignoring real human rights violations.
Don't even go there.

You're right...I keep forgetting that Israel is above condemnation by international law...

Anyway, you can define a dog as a cat, but it doesnt make it so. You can define Palestinians as a race separate from teh Israelis, but it doesn't make it so either. Who is playing semantic games now?

I laid out particular areas in which the Israeli/Palestinian situation resembles Aparthied. You consistently ignore it in an attempt to deflect this discussion into an issue of semantics.

Is this because you are incapable of addressing the issue directly?

What were teh aims of apartheid?

You tell me.

What are the aims of Zionism?

I laid that out in my initial argument. Going by the words of some of Zionism's founders, the aims are to remove Arabs from lands that the Jews consider to be theirs by divine right.

WHat rigths did blacks enjoy under Apartheid?
You tell me.

What rights do Palestinians enjoy in Israel?

Again, I laid out the ways in which Palestinians have distinctly fewer rights then Jews in Israel.

Do you dispute the claims I made?

Hmm, not looking too good for your argument now, is it? I think you might want to reconsider.

No. I see no need to reconsider as you have yet to provide any sort of argument refuting the points I made.

In fact, I think you might want to go commit suicide out of shame for being a tool of the Israel-haters on this board and aiding and abetting terrorism.

Now you simply sound like a child.
 
What fairytale world does this asshole live in? Really, I'd love to take a hit off of the crackpipe he just smoked. Must be some good shit.

Jerusalem, ALL of Jerusalem, belongs to Israel.

There is no such thing as a Palestinian. I would support a joint fund of all nations to pay for the peaceful relocation of the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza. Give them enough to survive on for a few years. I see a lot of empty condos in Dubai.

Hamas will never lay down its arms - therefore, I support a joint task force of Israeli, European and American soldiers, numbering in the hundreds of thousands, to eradicate Hamas from Gaza. There would be a 14-day period not only guaranteeing the safe passage of Arab civilians living there into Egypt, but also for Hamas to lay down its arms. After 14 days, flatten the place. That's how you deal with your enemy in war - you don't just barely beat them, you fucking anihilate them.

I would then remove the West Bank and Gaza as occupied territory status and incorporate them into Israel. Any remaining Arabs in any of the lands must apply for Israeli citizenship or risk deportation.

I would also investigate the link between Iran and Hamas.

Would it be fair to qualify your plan as ethnic cleansing?

Not at all - I just support the removal of the intruders from our home.

How many Americans support the removal of the tens of millions of illegal immigrants in the US?

It's the same thing!

Not me, dickhead.
 
The guy's plan has some points of merit.

But Israel and it's government is full of DavidS type of people.

The hawks in govt., yes, but there are also plenty (if not a majority) of doves in the gen, pop. who desire peace, and more importantly, equity. Would you have wanted the world to think all American's were represented by President Bush and Vice President Cheney?
 
You agree with that? Even with point 6? Wow!

Wholeheartedly! Actually I agree with EVERY point!

Really? Jerusalem?

Why? Because they want it? And East Jerusalem? I wonder if they'd be willing to give up their Israeli citizenship in exchange? oh wait... they were offered that... they said no. (Can't blame them, they have more rights in Israel than in any Arab country).

As for an apology?

Sorry, in case no one told you, Jews no longer have to apologize for not dying...

Yes, Jerusalem. Not because they "want" it, because it is a holy (the most holiest of cities) city to BOTH. Actually, to all three. And letting others live (Palestine has been a ghetto for generations, you know) is not the same as "dying." Security would be improved by better relations and simple justice. The Arabs did not conduct the Holocaust; and the Palestinians shouldn't have to have been paying reparations for it all these years.
 
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