Benedict Arnold...

[hazlnut]

...that's what the pro-2nd amendment folks will be calling me by the end of this post...but I was extremely disturbed by something that took place last night...and I wanted to share it, and discuss it rationally.

As some of you know, I have expressed reservations in the past regarding the private sale exception. For those of you who don't, here is a link:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...laws-discussion-and-debate-7.html#post4001890

SO, here is my story, and forgive me if I get a little long winded...

My wife really, really wanted her own AR15.

We have one already, but I bought it 20 years ago, long before she was into guns and shooting, and I set it up for what I intended to use it for...long rang target shooting and coyote control.

That made it extremely heavy and my Angel is a little girl...it is uncomfortable for her to shoot in any position but prone.

She was afraid that with all the idiot gun grabbers clamoring for another ridiculous weapons ban, that she wasn't going to be able to get one of her own.

As you know, when momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy...I started the hunt.

Of course, every store, pawn shop and internet source is out of stock of everything AR related, and I knew this going in...so I started calling friends, and they called their friends, and by six pm, I had a hit...a friend of a friend had just bought an AR from a guy who had two more for sale...here's his number.

I call the fella...yes, he has one; Sure, he can meet me.

We meet at Wal-mart...and here is the disturbing part...

The Seller doesn't ask me a single question.

No inquiry of whether I can legally purchase a firearm, of if I am a felon, or even if I am a resident of the state.

I know what you are thinking, I could have just lied...and that's true, I could, and that's a huge problem too...but on this subject, for the private sale exception to work, we as gun owners must police ourselves.

We have to find a way to screen private sale purchasers WITHOUT creating a de facto firearm registry.

I have a few proposals, but I'd like to here your thoughts first...

The seller was introduced to you through friends though, correct? Or would he have sold it to anyone who came up to him in the parking lot?

Trying to justify insanity.

That type of gun should not exist for consumer. Or they should be registered with the FBI.

Period.

 

[Ravi]

The GOP will prevent the Feds from banning guns and giving Democraps the chance to come get your guns.

Registering the guns puts the anti-gun Democraps in their place because anymore demands from them shows they really want to violate the Second Amendment.

The police will be helped by forcing criminals to register their guns, of course felons won't do it because they aren't supposed to have a weapon but the less violent criminals get into a gun database for reference.

If your registered gun is found on a felon, then the police will ask you about selling it to the felon, etc. Registering guns helps law and order that conservatives demand.

I don't trust the government with a list of what everyone owns.

The Germans had an innocent firearm registry, for the common good and all, long before Hitler came to power...and he used it to disarm his enemies and the Jews to pave the way for the Holocaust.

I edited that post a little, but I'll restate it here...the illegal seizure of firearms post Katrina was the final nail in the gun registry coffin for me and many other lawful gun owners.

That was wrong and unconstitutional and I believe the New Orleans Police Department figured that out and gave the guns back.

What you are saying is basically the potential deaths of innocent children isn't worth the way out there chance that the US is going to become a dictatorship and take away your guns.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Thanks to all of you for the rationality of your discussion.

I agree with GoneBezerk.

I do not fear the government because It is Us.

I do fear the corruption of Our civic virtue.

 

[Plasmaball]

...that's what the pro-2nd amendment folks will be calling me by the end of this post...but I was extremely disturbed by something that took place last night...and I wanted to share it, and discuss it rationally.

As some of you know, I have expressed reservations in the past regarding the private sale exception. For those of you who don't, here is a link:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...laws-discussion-and-debate-7.html#post4001890

SO, here is my story, and forgive me if I get a little long winded...

My wife really, really wanted her own AR15.

We have one already, but I bought it 20 years ago, long before she was into guns and shooting, and I set it up for what I intended to use it for...long rang target shooting and coyote control.

That made it extremely heavy and my Angel is a little girl...it is uncomfortable for her to shoot in any position but prone.

She was afraid that with all the idiot gun grabbers clamoring for another ridiculous weapons ban, that she wasn't going to be able to get one of her own.

As you know, when momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy...I started the hunt.

Of course, every store, pawn shop and internet source is out of stock of everything AR related, and I knew this going in...so I started calling friends, and they called their friends, and by six pm, I had a hit...a friend of a friend had just bought an AR from a guy who had two more for sale...here's his number.

I call the fella...yes, he has one; Sure, he can meet me.

We meet at Wal-mart...and here is the disturbing part...

The Seller doesn't ask me a single question.

No inquiry of whether I can legally purchase a firearm, of if I am a felon, or even if I am a resident of the state.

I know what you are thinking, I could have just lied...and that's true, I could, and that's a huge problem too...but on this subject, for the private sale exception to work, we as gun owners must police ourselves.

We have to find a way to screen private sale purchasers WITHOUT creating a de facto firearm registry.

I have a few proposals, but I'd like to here your thoughts first...

The seller was introduced to you through friends though, correct? Or would he have sold it to anyone who came up to him in the parking lot?

Trying to justify insanity.

That type of gun should not exist for consumer. Or they should be registered with the FBI.

Period.

stop it, you are not helping things with how you are posting.

 

[Plasmaball]

i have to agree with Gone as well.
I see no reason as to why you can't buy it, but you should register it. Id give you like a week window to get down to where ever you are. Id go so far in even having a title ( like a car) with the gun. Keep it legal, keep it safe, and we wont have these questions.

 

[Dick Tuck]

I see your point and understand your concerns but in free society I'm not sure what you can do about private sales for myself I wouldn't sell to a person I didn't know well but not everyone will do that.

I'd like to see ALL background checks handled differently...and in exchange for that compromise, ALL weapons transfers would need to be handle thru an FFL.

The compromise would be that all background check simply determine the legal illegibility of the purchaser...no firearm data is recorded in conjunction with a persons name.

And for that small concession, private sales would be subject to the same federal background checks that are required of FFL transactions.

Keep in mind, when Obama and the gun grabber talk about ending the "gun show loophole"...what they really mean is ending the private sales exception.

But what would be the mechanics of this?

Would the buyer/seller go to a local FFL to have the buyer complete a 4473, much like an interstate or online sale?

The mechanics aren't that complex. It's already done in the more civilized states. Go to your State Police and file for an FFL, when you get one, present it to the seller, and you get to buy a gun.

 

[Missourian]

I see your point and understand your concerns but in free society I'm not sure what you can do about private sales for myself I wouldn't sell to a person I didn't know well but not everyone will do that.

I'd like to see ALL background checks handled differently...and in exchange for that compromise, ALL weapons transfers would need to be handle thru an FFL.

The compromise would be that all background check simply determine the legal illegibility of the purchaser...no firearm data is recorded in conjunction with a persons name.

And for that small concession, private sales would be subject to the same federal background checks that are required of FFL transactions.

Keep in mind, when Obama and the gun grabber talk about ending the "gun show loophole"...what they really mean is ending the private sales exception.

But what would be the mechanics of this?

Would the buyer/seller go to a local FFL to have the buyer complete a 4473, much like an interstate or online sale?

Exacty.

This also eliminates another potential pitfall for the prospective private seller.

Let's image I am the seller...I agree to meet the prospective buyer at Wal-mart.

I perform my due diligence, ask for his drivers license to establish his Missouri citizenship, and inquire if they are a convicted felon...and they say "Why yes I am...armed robbery...why do you ask?"

So now I am in a position where I must, by law, inform this fellow that I in fact cannot allow him to purchase my firearm."

Probably should have handled this over the phone, right?

But then I relinquish the opportunity to gauge the prospective buyers honesty while responding to my inquiries.

What a situation we have here...I'm wondering if this is the reason the seller was reluctant to question me.

The way the law is written, as Dick Tuck pointed out, under Missouri law, the seller must neither "know nor suspect" that the seller is ineligible to purchase a firearm.

If a person doesn't ask, he is in the clear legally and does not have to face the aforementioned scenario.

The short answer to your question is...yes...both buyer and seller would present themselves to a FFL and for a small fee (like $20...ten for the FFL and ten for the government), a background check is performed and everyone is happy.

But no one is going to go for this if it becomes a de facto registry...no weapon types or serial numbers are recorded...the weapon would not even have to be present. Just a go/no-go yes or no decision.

 

[Missourian]

The GOP will prevent the Feds from banning guns and giving Democraps the chance to come get your guns.

Registering the guns puts the anti-gun Democraps in their place because anymore demands from them shows they really want to violate the Second Amendment.

The police will be helped by forcing criminals to register their guns, of course felons won't do it because they aren't supposed to have a weapon but the less violent criminals get into a gun database for reference.

If your registered gun is found on a felon, then the police will ask you about selling it to the felon, etc. Registering guns helps law and order that conservatives demand.

I edited that post a little, but I'll restate it here...the illegal seizure of firearms post Katrina was the final nail in the gun registry coffin for me and many other lawful gun owners.

That was wrong and unconstitutional and I believe the New Orleans Police Department figured that out and gave the guns back.

What you are saying is basically the potential deaths of innocent children isn't worth the way out there chance that the US is going to become a dictatorship and take away your guns.

Nope...I'm saying there is a way to make the sales safer by making them all subject to federal background checks while simultaneously protecting against tyranny.

 

[Missourian]

Thanks to all of you for the rationality of your discussion.

I too extend my thanks to everyone who has contributed.

 

[Jarlaxle]

...that's what the pro-2nd amendment folks will be calling me by the end of this post...but I was extremely disturbed by something that took place last night...and I wanted to share it, and discuss it rationally.

As some of you know, I have expressed reservations in the past regarding the private sale exception. For those of you who don't, here is a link:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...laws-discussion-and-debate-7.html#post4001890

SO, here is my story, and forgive me if I get a little long winded...

My wife really, really wanted her own AR15.

We have one already, but I bought it 20 years ago, long before she was into guns and shooting, and I set it up for what I intended to use it for...long rang target shooting and coyote control.

That made it extremely heavy and my Angel is a little girl...it is uncomfortable for her to shoot in any position but prone.

She was afraid that with all the idiot gun grabbers clamoring for another ridiculous weapons ban, that she wasn't going to be able to get one of her own.

As you know, when momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy...I started the hunt.

Of course, every store, pawn shop and internet source is out of stock of everything AR related, and I knew this going in...so I started calling friends, and they called their friends, and by six pm, I had a hit...a friend of a friend had just bought an AR from a guy who had two more for sale...here's his number.

I call the fella...yes, he has one; Sure, he can meet me.

We meet at Wal-mart...and here is the disturbing part...

The Seller doesn't ask me a single question.

No inquiry of whether I can legally purchase a firearm, of if I am a felon, or even if I am a resident of the state.

I know what you are thinking, I could have just lied...and that's true, I could, and that's a huge problem too...but on this subject, for the private sale exception to work, we as gun owners must police ourselves.

We have to find a way to screen private sale purchasers WITHOUT creating a de facto firearm registry.

I have a few proposals, but I'd like to here your thoughts first...

The seller was introduced to you through friends though, correct? Or would he have sold it to anyone who came up to him in the parking lot?

Trying to justify insanity.

That type of gun should not exist for consumer. Or they should be registered with the FBI.

Period.

Please explain, in detail, EXACTLY how an AR-15 clone is significantly different (other than the obvious of firing a different caliber round) from an M-1 Garand rifle. Be specific.

 

[Jarlaxle]

I'd like to see ALL background checks handled differently...and in exchange for that compromise, ALL weapons transfers would need to be handle thru an FFL.

The compromise would be that all background check simply determine the legal illegibility of the purchaser...no firearm data is recorded in conjunction with a persons name.

And for that small concession, private sales would be subject to the same federal background checks that are required of FFL transactions.

Keep in mind, when Obama and the gun grabber talk about ending the "gun show loophole"...what they really mean is ending the private sales exception.

But what would be the mechanics of this?

Would the buyer/seller go to a local FFL to have the buyer complete a 4473, much like an interstate or online sale?

Exacty.

This also eliminates another potential pitfall for the prospective private seller.

Let's image I am the seller...I agree to meet the prospective buyer at Wal-mart.

I perform my due diligence, ask for his drivers license to establish his Missouri citizenship, and inquire if they are a convicted felon...and they say "Why yes I am...armed robbery...why do you ask?"

So now I am in a position where I must, by law, inform this fellow that I in fact cannot allow him to purchase my firearm."

Probably should have handled this over the phone, right?

But then I relinquish the opportunity to gauge the prospective buyers honesty while when responding to my inquiries.

What a situation we have here...I'm wondering if this is the reason the seller was reluctant to question me.

The way the law is written, as Dick Tuck pointed out, under Missouri law, the seller must neither "know nor suspect" that the seller is ineligible to purchase a firearm.

If a person doesn't ask, he is in the clear legally and does not have to face the aforementioned scenario.

The short answer to your question is...yes...both buyer and seller would present themselves to a FFL and for a small fee (like $20...ten for the FFL and ten for the government), a background check is performed and everyone is happy.

But no one is going to go for this if it becomes a de facto registry...no weapon types or serial numbers are recorded...the weapon would not even have to be present. Just a go/no-go yes or no decision.

I'm about as hard-line against a gun registry as you can get...but with some minor tinkering, I think I could support this.

 

[JakeStarkey]

No need for an answer to you, Jaraxle, because your ? is not pertinent to the discussion.

The seller was introduced to you through friends though, correct? Or would he have sold it to anyone who came up to him in the parking lot?

Trying to justify insanity.

That type of gun should not exist for consumer. Or they should be registered with the FBI.

Period.

Please explain, in detail, EXACTLY how an AR-15 clone is significantly different (other than the obvious of firing a different caliber round) from an M-1 Garand rifle. Be specific.

 

[Jarlaxle]

I wasn't asking you, jackass. If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You will be told what you need: what you need is not what you asked.

Ask the correct question, toad.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Was that word salad supposed to make sense, or are you just drunk again?

 

[BreezeWood]

I'm just guessing, the top one is the Garand ... so little difference it is hard to tell.

Connecticut has had an assault weapons ban continuously since 1994.

if that were true why was it in the home of the assailant and used at target ranges ?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

...that's what the pro-2nd amendment folks will be calling me by the end of this post...but I was extremely disturbed by something that took place last night...and I wanted to share it, and discuss it rationally.

As some of you know, I have expressed reservations in the past regarding the private sale exception. For those of you who don't, here is a link:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...laws-discussion-and-debate-7.html#post4001890

SO, here is my story, and forgive me if I get a little long winded...

My wife really, really wanted her own AR15.

We have one already, but I bought it 20 years ago, long before she was into guns and shooting, and I set it up for what I intended to use it for...long rang target shooting and coyote control.

That made it extremely heavy and my Angel is a little girl...it is uncomfortable for her to shoot in any position but prone.

She was afraid that with all the idiot gun grabbers clamoring for another ridiculous weapons ban, that she wasn't going to be able to get one of her own.

As you know, when momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy...I started the hunt.

Of course, every store, pawn shop and internet source is out of stock of everything AR related, and I knew this going in...so I started calling friends, and they called their friends, and by six pm, I had a hit...a friend of a friend had just bought an AR from a guy who had two more for sale...here's his number.

I call the fella...yes, he has one; Sure, he can meet me.

We meet at Wal-mart...and here is the disturbing part...

The Seller doesn't ask me a single question.

No inquiry of whether I can legally purchase a firearm, of if I am a felon, or even if I am a resident of the state.

I know what you are thinking, I could have just lied...and that's true, I could, and that's a huge problem too...but on this subject, for the private sale exception to work, we as gun owners must police ourselves.

We have to find a way to screen private sale purchasers WITHOUT creating a de facto firearm registry.

I have a few proposals, but I'd like to here your thoughts first...

Homeschool?

 

[uscitizen]

Have you checked to see if the gun is stolen?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

[

I don't trust the government with a list of..

not exactly a constitutional argument

 

[Old Rocks]

OK. I personally think that the assault weapons are an abomination. Created solely for the purpose of killing large numbers of people rapidly. However, there are millions of them in public hands. And most of the owners are resposible citizens. So, how do we keep them out of the hands of crazies.

1. A law that in order to have one of them outside your home, you have to have the same license as for a fully automatic weapon. If caught with the weopon and no license, the weopon is confiscated and destroyed, and you go to jail, and have a felony count on your record.

If you sell or give the weopon to someone that does not have that license, you have both committed a felony.

2. If you store your guns, of any type, irresponsibly, and they are taken and used in a cirme, you own that crime.

Under those rules, if you and the seller had said license, no problem. If not, both you and he lose the right to ever own a firearm again.