Benedict Arnold...

[Missourian]

...that's what the pro-2nd amendment folks will be calling me by the end of this post...but I was extremely disturbed by something that took place last night...and I wanted to share it, and discuss it rationally.

As some of you know, I have expressed reservations in the past regarding the private sale exception. For those of you who don't, here is a link:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...laws-discussion-and-debate-7.html#post4001890

SO, here is my story, and forgive me if I get a little long winded...

My wife really, really wanted her own AR15.

We have one already, but I bought it 20 years ago, long before she was into guns and shooting, and I set it up for what I intended to use it for...long rang target shooting and coyote control.

That made it extremely heavy and my Angel is a little girl...it is uncomfortable for her to shoot in any position but prone.

She was afraid that with all the idiot gun grabbers clamoring for another ridiculous weapons ban, that she wasn't going to be able to get one of her own.

As you know, when momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy...I started the hunt.

Of course, every store, pawn shop and internet source is out of stock of everything AR related, and I knew this going in...so I started calling friends, and they called their friends, and by six pm, I had a hit...a friend of a friend had just bought an AR from a guy who had two more for sale...here's his number.

I call the fella...yes, he has one; Sure, he can meet me.

We meet at Wal-mart...and here is the disturbing part...

The Seller doesn't ask me a single question.

No inquiry of whether I can legally purchase a firearm, of if I am a felon, or even if I am a resident of the state.

I know what you are thinking, I could have just lied...and that's true, I could, and that's a huge problem too...but on this subject, for the private sale exception to work, we as gun owners must police ourselves.

We have to find a way to screen private sale purchasers WITHOUT creating a de facto firearm registry.

I have a few proposals, but I'd like to here your thoughts first...

 

[The Infidel]

 

[Ravi]

Did you buy it?

 

[Missourian]

Did you buy it?

Yes, I did, after a discussion like the one we're having now.

 

[asterism]

...that's what the pro-2nd amendment folks will be calling me by the end of this post...but I was extremely disturbed by something that took place last night...and I wanted to share it, and discuss it rationally.

As some of you know, I have expressed reservations in the past regarding the private sale exception. For those of you who don't, here is a link:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...laws-discussion-and-debate-7.html#post4001890

SO, here is my story, and forgive me if I get a little long winded...

My wife really, really wanted her own AR15.

We have one already, but I bought it 20 years ago, long before she was into guns and shooting, and I set it up for what I intended to use it for...long rang target shooting and coyote control.

That made it extremely heavy and my Angel is a little girl...it is uncomfortable for her to shoot in any position but prone.

She was afraid that with all the idiot gun grabbers clamoring for another ridiculous weapons ban, that she wasn't going to be able to get one of her own.

As you know, when momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy...I started the hunt.

Of course, every store, pawn shop and internet source is out of stock of everything AR related, and I knew this going in...so I started calling friends, and they called their friends, and by six pm, I had a hit...a friend of a friend had just bought an AR from a guy who had two more for sale...here's his number.

I call the fella...yes, he has one; Sure, he can meet me.

We meet at Wal-mart...and here is the disturbing part...

The Seller doesn't ask me a single question.

No inquiry of whether I can legally purchase a firearm, of if I am a felon, or even if I am a resident of the state.

I know what you are thinking, I could have just lied...and that's true, I could, and that's a huge problem too...but on this subject, for the private sale exception to work, we as gun owners must police ourselves.

We have to find a way to screen private sale purchasers WITHOUT creating a de facto firearm registry.

I have a few proposals, but I'd like to here your thoughts first...

The seller was introduced to you through friends though, correct? Or would he have sold it to anyone who came up to him in the parking lot?

 

[mjollnir]

...that's what the pro-2nd amendment folks will be calling me by the end of this post...but I was extremely disturbed by something that took place last night...and I wanted to share it, and discuss it rationally.

As some of you know, I have expressed reservations in the past regarding the private sale exception. For those of you who don't, here is a link:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...laws-discussion-and-debate-7.html#post4001890

SO, here is my story, and forgive me if I get a little long winded...

My wife really, really wanted her own AR15.

We have one already, but I bought it 20 years ago, long before she was into guns and shooting, and I set it up for what I intended to use it for...long rang target shooting and coyote control.

That made it extremely heavy and my Angel is a little girl...it is uncomfortable for her to shoot in any position but prone.

She was afraid that with all the idiot gun grabbers clamoring for another ridiculous weapons ban, that she wasn't going to be able to get one of her own.

As you know, when momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy...I started the hunt.

Of course, every store, pawn shop and internet source is out of stock of everything AR related, and I knew this going in...so I started calling friends, and they called their friends, and by six pm, I had a hit...a friend of a friend had just bought an AR from a guy who had two more for sale...here's his number.

I call the fella...yes, he has one; Sure, he can meet me.

We meet at Wal-mart...and here is the disturbing part...

The Seller doesn't ask me a single question.

No inquiry of whether I can legally purchase a firearm, of if I am a felon, or even if I am a resident of the state.

I know what you are thinking, I could have just lied...and that's true, I could, and that's a huge problem too...but on this subject, for the private sale exception to work, we as gun owners must police ourselves.

We have to find a way to screen private sale purchasers WITHOUT creating a de facto firearm registry.

I have a few proposals, but I'd like to here your thoughts first...

Very interesting scenario and question, and a thorny one.

I don't have a fully thought-out answer yet, but I hope the usual emotionalism about this topic doesn't infest the thread before I do.

 

[Wry Catcher]

If the transaction was illegal, both of you are de facto criminals. And, if prosecuted and convicted, both of you risked prison and losing the ability to ever legally own a firearm again.

 

[Missourian]

...that's what the pro-2nd amendment folks will be calling me by the end of this post...but I was extremely disturbed by something that took place last night...and I wanted to share it, and discuss it rationally.

As some of you know, I have expressed reservations in the past regarding the private sale exception. For those of you who don't, here is a link:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...laws-discussion-and-debate-7.html#post4001890

SO, here is my story, and forgive me if I get a little long winded...

My wife really, really wanted her own AR15.

We have one already, but I bought it 20 years ago, long before she was into guns and shooting, and I set it up for what I intended to use it for...long rang target shooting and coyote control.

That made it extremely heavy and my Angel is a little girl...it is uncomfortable for her to shoot in any position but prone.

She was afraid that with all the idiot gun grabbers clamoring for another ridiculous weapons ban, that she wasn't going to be able to get one of her own.

As you know, when momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy...I started the hunt.

Of course, every store, pawn shop and internet source is out of stock of everything AR related, and I knew this going in...so I started calling friends, and they called their friends, and by six pm, I had a hit...a friend of a friend had just bought an AR from a guy who had two more for sale...here's his number.

I call the fella...yes, he has one; Sure, he can meet me.

We meet at Wal-mart...and here is the disturbing part...

The Seller doesn't ask me a single question.

No inquiry of whether I can legally purchase a firearm, of if I am a felon, or even if I am a resident of the state.

I know what you are thinking, I could have just lied...and that's true, I could, and that's a huge problem too...but on this subject, for the private sale exception to work, we as gun owners must police ourselves.

We have to find a way to screen private sale purchasers WITHOUT creating a de facto firearm registry.

I have a few proposals, but I'd like to here your thoughts first...

The seller was introduced to you through friends though, correct? Or would he have sold it to anyone who came up to him in the parking lot?

The sellers number was given to me from a friend of mine, who received it from a friend of his to whom I am neither acquainted nor known. Further, the seller was only known by any party through a firearm sale.

As I understand it, the seller mentioned to my friends friend that he had another AR to sell. That was the only relationship.

That's a long way of saying, he was trying to sell it to anyone.

 

[LadyGunSlinger]

...that's what the pro-2nd amendment folks will be calling me by the end of this post...but I was extremely disturbed by something that took place last night...and I wanted to share it, and discuss it rationally.

As some of you know, I have expressed reservations in the past regarding the private sale exception. For those of you who don't, here is a link:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...laws-discussion-and-debate-7.html#post4001890

SO, here is my story, and forgive me if I get a little long winded...

My wife really, really wanted her own AR15.

We have one already, but I bought it 20 years ago, long before she was into guns and shooting, and I set it up for what I intended to use it for...long rang target shooting and coyote control.

That made it extremely heavy and my Angel is a little girl...it is uncomfortable for her to shoot in any position but prone.

She was afraid that with all the idiot gun grabbers clamoring for another ridiculous weapons ban, that she wasn't going to be able to get one of her own.

As you know, when momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy...I started the hunt.

Of course, every store, pawn shop and internet source is out of stock of everything AR related, and I knew this going in...so I started calling friends, and they called their friends, and by six pm, I had a hit...a friend of a friend had just bought an AR from a guy who had two more for sale...here's his number.

I call the fella...yes, he has one; Sure, he can meet me.

We meet at Wal-mart...and here is the disturbing part...

The Seller doesn't ask me a single question.

No inquiry of whether I can legally purchase a firearm, of if I am a felon, or even if I am a resident of the state.

I know what you are thinking, I could have just lied...and that's true, I could, and that's a huge problem too...but on this subject, for the private sale exception to work, we as gun owners must police ourselves.

We have to find a way to screen private sale purchasers WITHOUT creating a de facto firearm registry.

I have a few proposals, but I'd like to here your thoughts first...

The seller was introduced to you through friends though, correct? Or would he have sold it to anyone who came up to him in the parking lot?

The sellers number was given to me from a friend of mine, who received it from a friend of his to whom I am neither acquainted nor known. Further, the seller was only known by any party through a firearm sale.

As I understand it, the seller mentioned to my friends friend that he had another AR to sell. That was the only relationship.

That's a long way of saying, he was trying to sell it to anyone.

Which proves the point that if a criminal is looking to purchase a weapon, NO NEW LAWS will stop him as there are numerous individuals out there like the one you're describing willing to sell to anyone!

 

[Missourian]

If the transaction was illegal, both of you are de facto criminals. And, if prosecuted and convicted, both of you risked prison and losing the ability to ever legally own a firearm again.

The transaction was legal.

It was legal because I am a resident of the state and so is he (I inquired).

It is legal because I can legally own the firearm.

It is legal because I can pass a federal firearm background check...I just bought a single shot 30/30 NEF HandiRifle two weeks ago from an FFL (Federal Firearm License holder)

I knew all this...the point of this thread is that the seller never asked me a single question.

He, as a private seller has a responsibility to perform his due diligence to complete this kind of transaction.

I volunteered the information he needed unelicited, and then explained it's importance in a way he would understand it...that he could go to federal prison for failure to ask some simple questions.

 

[GoneBezerk]

The easiest fix to this mess is that every gun must be registered with the Feds or state it resides in.

If two private citizens want to exchange guns like this then they should need to go to the local police to register the transaction and pay a fee for the background check.

If someone is caught with an unregistered gun, then they get arrested. Criminals will either be forced to register their guns, thus connecting a specific weapon to their ass for tracking purposes or they will hide their gun taking a chance when they get caught.

Law abiding citizens have nothing to fear from registering their guns. I tell the government I have this gun and that gun, that's it. Now, if there's a shooting with my rare gun....then I might have to explain something.

 

[Missourian]

The easiest fix to this mess is that every gun must be registered with the Feds or state it resides in.

If two private citizens want to exchange guns like this then they should need to go to the local police to register the transaction and pay a fee for the background check.

If someone is caught with an unregistered gun, then they get arrested. Criminals will either be forced to register their guns, thus connecting a specific weapon to their ass for tracking purposes or they will hide their gun taking a chance when they get caught.

Law abiding citizens have nothing to fear from registering their guns. I tell the government I have this gun and that gun, that's it. Now, if there's a shooting with my rare gun....then I might have to explain something.

I don't trust the government with a list of what everyone owns.

The Germans had an innocent firearm registry, for the common good and all, long before Hitler came to power...and he used it to disarm his enemies and the Jews to pave the way for the Holocaust.

Now that's an extreme example...but at a minimum, it is a blueprint for firearm seizure like we saw here in the United States just eight short years ago in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

 

[blackhawk]

...that's what the pro-2nd amendment folks will be calling me by the end of this post...but I was extremely disturbed by something that took place last night...and I wanted to share it, and discuss it rationally.

As some of you know, I have expressed reservations in the past regarding the private sale exception. For those of you who don't, here is a link:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...laws-discussion-and-debate-7.html#post4001890

SO, here is my story, and forgive me if I get a little long winded...

My wife really, really wanted her own AR15.

We have one already, but I bought it 20 years ago, long before she was into guns and shooting, and I set it up for what I intended to use it for...long rang target shooting and coyote control.

That made it extremely heavy and my Angel is a little girl...it is uncomfortable for her to shoot in any position but prone.

She was afraid that with all the idiot gun grabbers clamoring for another ridiculous weapons ban, that she wasn't going to be able to get one of her own.

As you know, when momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy...I started the hunt.

Of course, every store, pawn shop and internet source is out of stock of everything AR related, and I knew this going in...so I started calling friends, and they called their friends, and by six pm, I had a hit...a friend of a friend had just bought an AR from a guy who had two more for sale...here's his number.

I call the fella...yes, he has one; Sure, he can meet me.

We meet at Wal-mart...and here is the disturbing part...

The Seller doesn't ask me a single question.

No inquiry of whether I can legally purchase a firearm, of if I am a felon, or even if I am a resident of the state.

I know what you are thinking, I could have just lied...and that's true, I could, and that's a huge problem too...but on this subject, for the private sale exception to work, we as gun owners must police ourselves.

We have to find a way to screen private sale purchasers WITHOUT creating a de facto firearm registry.

I have a few proposals, but I'd like to here your thoughts first...

I see your point and understand your concerns but in free society I'm not sure what you can do about private sales for myself I wouldn't sell to a person I didn't know well but not everyone will do that.

 

[GoneBezerk]

The GOP will prevent the Feds from banning guns and giving Democraps the chance to come get your guns.

Registering the guns puts the anti-gun Democraps in their place because anymore demands from them shows they really want to violate the Second Amendment.

The police will be helped by forcing criminals to register their guns, of course felons won't do it because they aren't supposed to have a weapon but the less violent criminals get into a gun database for reference.

If your registered gun is found on a felon, then the police will ask you about selling it to the felon, etc. Registering guns helps law and order that conservatives demand.

The easiest fix to this mess is that every gun must be registered with the Feds or state it resides in.

If two private citizens want to exchange guns like this then they should need to go to the local police to register the transaction and pay a fee for the background check.

If someone is caught with an unregistered gun, then they get arrested. Criminals will either be forced to register their guns, thus connecting a specific weapon to their ass for tracking purposes or they will hide their gun taking a chance when they get caught.

Law abiding citizens have nothing to fear from registering their guns. I tell the government I have this gun and that gun, that's it. Now, if there's a shooting with my rare gun....then I might have to explain something.

I don't trust the government with a list of what everyone owns.

The Germans had an innocent firearm registry, for the common good and all, long before Hitler came to power...and he used it to disarm his enemies and the Jews to pave the way for the Holocaust.

 

[Missourian]

The GOP will prevent the Feds from banning guns and giving Democraps the chance to come get your guns.

Registering the guns puts the anti-gun Democraps in their place because anymore demands from them shows they really want to violate the Second Amendment.

The police will be helped by forcing criminals to register their guns, of course felons won't do it because they aren't supposed to have a weapon but the less violent criminals get into a gun database for reference.

If your registered gun is found on a felon, then the police will ask you about selling it to the felon, etc. Registering guns helps law and order that conservatives demand.

The easiest fix to this mess is that every gun must be registered with the Feds or state it resides in.

If two private citizens want to exchange guns like this then they should need to go to the local police to register the transaction and pay a fee for the background check.

If someone is caught with an unregistered gun, then they get arrested. Criminals will either be forced to register their guns, thus connecting a specific weapon to their ass for tracking purposes or they will hide their gun taking a chance when they get caught.

Law abiding citizens have nothing to fear from registering their guns. I tell the government I have this gun and that gun, that's it. Now, if there's a shooting with my rare gun....then I might have to explain something.

I don't trust the government with a list of what everyone owns.

The Germans had an innocent firearm registry, for the common good and all, long before Hitler came to power...and he used it to disarm his enemies and the Jews to pave the way for the Holocaust.

I edited that post a little, but I'll restate it here...the illegal seizure of firearms post Katrina was the final nail in the gun registry coffin for me and many other lawful gun owners.

 

[GoneBezerk]

Government officials and police might overreach during a crisis because they don't know you from the scum that were robbing stores in New Orleans, so if you have a gun...they're taking it.

If that gun was registered and you had a license to carry, they can't seize it unless they want to be in trouble with the Feds in the end for violation of Civil Rights. If the police know you have a legal gun and are approved to own it, they don't have a legal authority to take it from you unless they want to violate your Federal rights.

The GOP will prevent the Feds from banning guns and giving Democraps the chance to come get your guns.

Registering the guns puts the anti-gun Democraps in their place because anymore demands from them shows they really want to violate the Second Amendment.

The police will be helped by forcing criminals to register their guns, of course felons won't do it because they aren't supposed to have a weapon but the less violent criminals get into a gun database for reference.

If your registered gun is found on a felon, then the police will ask you about selling it to the felon, etc. Registering guns helps law and order that conservatives demand.

I don't trust the government with a list of what everyone owns.

The Germans had an innocent firearm registry, for the common good and all, long before Hitler came to power...and he used it to disarm his enemies and the Jews to pave the way for the Holocaust.

I edited that post a little, but I'll restate it here...the illegal seizure of firearms post Katrina was the final nail in the gun registry coffin for me and many other lawful gun owners.

 

[Missourian]

...that's what the pro-2nd amendment folks will be calling me by the end of this post...but I was extremely disturbed by something that took place last night...and I wanted to share it, and discuss it rationally.

As some of you know, I have expressed reservations in the past regarding the private sale exception. For those of you who don't, here is a link:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...laws-discussion-and-debate-7.html#post4001890

SO, here is my story, and forgive me if I get a little long winded...

My wife really, really wanted her own AR15.

We have one already, but I bought it 20 years ago, long before she was into guns and shooting, and I set it up for what I intended to use it for...long rang target shooting and coyote control.

That made it extremely heavy and my Angel is a little girl...it is uncomfortable for her to shoot in any position but prone.

She was afraid that with all the idiot gun grabbers clamoring for another ridiculous weapons ban, that she wasn't going to be able to get one of her own.

As you know, when momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy...I started the hunt.

Of course, every store, pawn shop and internet source is out of stock of everything AR related, and I knew this going in...so I started calling friends, and they called their friends, and by six pm, I had a hit...a friend of a friend had just bought an AR from a guy who had two more for sale...here's his number.

I call the fella...yes, he has one; Sure, he can meet me.

We meet at Wal-mart...and here is the disturbing part...

The Seller doesn't ask me a single question.

No inquiry of whether I can legally purchase a firearm, of if I am a felon, or even if I am a resident of the state.

I know what you are thinking, I could have just lied...and that's true, I could, and that's a huge problem too...but on this subject, for the private sale exception to work, we as gun owners must police ourselves.

We have to find a way to screen private sale purchasers WITHOUT creating a de facto firearm registry.

I have a few proposals, but I'd like to here your thoughts first...

I see your point and understand your concerns but in free society I'm not sure what you can do about private sales for myself I wouldn't sell to a person I didn't know well but not everyone will do that.

I'd like to see ALL background checks handled differently...and in exchange for that compromise, ALL weapons transfers would need to be handle thru an FFL.

The compromise would be that all background check simply determine the legal illegibility of the purchaser...no firearm data is recorded in conjunction with a persons name.

And for that small concession, private sales would be subject to the same federal background checks that are required of FFL transactions.

Keep in mind, when Obama and the gun grabber talk about ending the "gun show loophole"...what they really mean is ending the private sales exception.

 

[Dick Tuck]

If the transaction was illegal, both of you are de facto criminals. And, if prosecuted and convicted, both of you risked prison and losing the ability to ever legally own a firearm again.

That depends on the state. Not sure about Missouri, but South Carolina allows the transaction with no questions asked. Virginia law just makes it illegal if you know you're selling to a convicted felon.

Most Northeast states require the buyer to produce a FFL, which just states the individual is able to purchase a firearm. In Maryland, there's no registration, but an FFL license is necessary for the transaction.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Word of mouth.

Frankly, I have bought a couple of my own guns in similar circumstances.

We just need to know and accept that this is very much like terrorists, illegals, criminals get their guns. You obviously knew that as this was unfolding and you went ahead with the transaction anyway.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

...that's what the pro-2nd amendment folks will be calling me by the end of this post...but I was extremely disturbed by something that took place last night...and I wanted to share it, and discuss it rationally.

As some of you know, I have expressed reservations in the past regarding the private sale exception. For those of you who don't, here is a link:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...laws-discussion-and-debate-7.html#post4001890

SO, here is my story, and forgive me if I get a little long winded...

My wife really, really wanted her own AR15.

We have one already, but I bought it 20 years ago, long before she was into guns and shooting, and I set it up for what I intended to use it for...long rang target shooting and coyote control.

That made it extremely heavy and my Angel is a little girl...it is uncomfortable for her to shoot in any position but prone.

She was afraid that with all the idiot gun grabbers clamoring for another ridiculous weapons ban, that she wasn't going to be able to get one of her own.

As you know, when momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy...I started the hunt.

Of course, every store, pawn shop and internet source is out of stock of everything AR related, and I knew this going in...so I started calling friends, and they called their friends, and by six pm, I had a hit...a friend of a friend had just bought an AR from a guy who had two more for sale...here's his number.

I call the fella...yes, he has one; Sure, he can meet me.

We meet at Wal-mart...and here is the disturbing part...

The Seller doesn't ask me a single question.

No inquiry of whether I can legally purchase a firearm, of if I am a felon, or even if I am a resident of the state.

I know what you are thinking, I could have just lied...and that's true, I could, and that's a huge problem too...but on this subject, for the private sale exception to work, we as gun owners must police ourselves.

We have to find a way to screen private sale purchasers WITHOUT creating a de facto firearm registry.

I have a few proposals, but I'd like to here your thoughts first...

I see your point and understand your concerns but in free society I'm not sure what you can do about private sales for myself I wouldn't sell to a person I didn't know well but not everyone will do that.

I'd like to see ALL background checks handled differently...and in exchange for that compromise, ALL weapons transfers would need to be handle thru an FFL.

The compromise would be that all background check simply determine the legal illegibility of the purchaser...no firearm data is recorded in conjunction with a persons name.

And for that small concession, private sales would be subject to the same federal background checks that are required of FFL transactions.

Keep in mind, when Obama and the gun grabber talk about ending the "gun show loophole"...what they really mean is ending the private sales exception.

But what would be the mechanics of this?

Would the buyer/seller go to a local FFL to have the buyer complete a 4473, much like an interstate or online sale?