Before Racing To National Healthcare: Listen

[wihosa]

Guess what, everyone stands in line to get health care. I had to wait 6 weeks to get an injection in my back to relieve extreme pain and I have Kaiser.

Trying to scare people about the availablity of healthcare with a single payer system isn't working anymore. I've met and talked to quite a few people from Canada and Europe (Britain and Sweden) who report no wait times for emergency care.

Was that 6 weeks for emergency care?
I call bullshit.

I had extreme pain shooting dowm my leg (sciatica). It was completly dibilitating. I would wake from a dead sleep in so much pain that it brought me to tears. After four weeks of taking endocet I was becoming addicted yet I had to wait for my back injection. I would call it an emergency, but I had to wait.

 

[wihosa]

Funny... a benefit of employment.... for the likes of the Military, Bush, Clinton, Cheney, Carter, etc

Not exactly the same of just giving it away

But nice try

Giving it away? Hey we will be paying taxes to pay for it. Nothing going to be given away. The difference is that there will not be a middle man (insurance companies) taking a cut for doing nothing. All the money will go to medical expenses instead of fat cat corporate CEOs.

Why is it that right wingers love to get screwed by big buisness?

"All the money will go to medical expenses" rather than "middle men taking a cut for doing nothing"? Which government are YOU talking about? And what color is the sky on your planet?

Why is it that left wingers love to get screwed by big government?

Facts are facts, Medicare costs 2% for administration, private insurance costs 25% for administration and profits. Don't forget the profits, ah yes, profitting off of someone's poor health, sicko indeed!

 

[Ame®icano]

How many of you ever lived in the country (countries) with government controlled healthcare?

Well, I did, and from my experience, thats a hole without the bottom where you keep pouring cash and never even partially fill it. Big NO NO on my list.

 

[alan1]

Guess what, everyone stands in line to get health care. I had to wait 6 weeks to get an injection in my back to relieve extreme pain and I have Kaiser.

Trying to scare people about the availablity of healthcare with a single payer system isn't working anymore. I've met and talked to quite a few people from Canada and Europe (Britain and Sweden) who report no wait times for emergency care.

Was that 6 weeks for emergency care?
I call bullshit.

I had extreme pain shooting dowm my leg (sciatica). It was completly dibilitating. I would wake from a dead sleep in so much pain that it brought me to tears. After four weeks of taking endocet I was becoming addicted yet I had to wait for my back injection. I would call it an emergency, but I had to wait.

Haha, sciatica.
A far cry from an emergency like a compound fracture or a bleeding eyeball. The fact that you want compare a sciatica to an actual emergency medical need is ridiculous.

 

[wihosa]

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG

Idiot leftist

#1 - Not all people pay income taxes.... this is an undisputed FACT
#2 - FICA goes to something SPECIFIC, does it not?
#3 - Property tax is not assessed by the federal government... but nice try
#4 - If you don't OWN property you don't PAY property tax
#5 - Any use of taxation for individual care of adults would have it that some are paying more for the same care, than others. I do not see anyone calling for the same AMOUNT of tax to be taken from every person to pay for the same PRODUCT or SERIES of PRODUCTS
#6 - By the nature of what is proposed, those who sit and earn nothing would be sapping off of the rest of the taxpaying citizenry

And once again.. as an adult in a country based on freedom and liberty... NOBODY FUCKING OWES YOU A GODDAMN THING TOWARDS YOUR PERSONAL CARE OR WELL BEING

Oh... and BTW... we have a little thing called a constitution in this republic that keeps us from inherently suffering the tyranny of pure democracy and the whim of the masses... and that is one thing the little extreme lefties such as yourself cannot seem to understand

1. All people who work legally pay a tax on their income, that's a fact. If you think that the name of a tax makes a difference, that's your poor ability critical thinking at work.
2. In theory, FICA goes to something specific, but the reality is that only 2/3 of the money collected for Social Security goes to pay for SS. The rest is 'borrowed' by the general fund so in reality every one is paying into the general fund.
3. I never said anything about federal or state taxes, only that everyone pays tax.
4. If you don't own property but only rent or lease property, let me assure you, you are paying the property tax through your rent payments. No property owner pays the property taxes out of his own pocket, they all charge enough rent to cover the property tax.
5. There are always inequities in tax payments, people with higher value homes pay more tax and thus pay more than others for their services be it public education, fire or police protection, etc.
6. There will always be some who will not work but the reality is that the vast majority of people want to be employed and therefore will pay tax. But to argue that therefore the rest of us should continue to be ripped off by the insurance companies is silly.

We as citizens can decide to pool our resources through taxations to provide for ourselves quality healthcare for all. You can continue to hurl invectives at those of us who think it is a good idea but it doesn't hide the weakness of your arguments.

If legislation is passed, it will be entirely consistent with the Constitution, but that same Constitution will continue to protect your right to make your silly arguments.

Well lefty... the fed is not running on state tax income


This bullshit that everyone pays income taxes is about as much of a myth as the Clinton surplus

No... everyone does not pay income tax... there are a LARGE number of people who indeed get every cent and more back than what they paid into the system for witholding... but nice try


Hmmm. inequity in property tax BECAUSE YOU OWN MORE PROPERTY OR MORE VALUABLE PROPERTY... nice try again... just like you pay more in total sales tax when you buy a Porsche compared to a Kia... don't mean you are getting taxed at a higher rate... and no, if you do not own property, you do not pay the tax... your landlord may, and may pass costs off accordingly to you.... but hmmmm, kinda sounds like the argument with BUSINESS TAX INCREASES NOW DON'T IT??..

And I will argue that you should work to pay for your own needs.... including health care... you're a goddamn adult... pay for it and take care of it like an adult instead of a sniveling child throwing a tantrum for a Hershey bar in the check out line, screaming that "I need it".. and I will argue that the rest of us are not responsible for your personal care and your personal wants and needs.. YOU are

OK the fed does not collect state income tax, what's your point?

So when people pay tax on their income, but it is called FICA, it is not a tax? Nobody is getting a refund in excess of the total tax paid, maybe in excess of that portion of their tax called 'income tax' but certainly not in excess of their total tax. Are you really so easily fooled by the name of the tax?

The fact is if you live in a home with a higher value than someone else in the community you pay more in school tax than that person. You also pay more in taxes for fire protection and police protection, for street maintanence etc. Sorry, that's is just a fact.

I've been self employed for thiry years . I have raised three kids to adulthood and paid cash for all my medical bills since I could never affored health insurance, but never once used government assistance so don't try to lecture me about pulling one's self up by the boot straps.

This is not about "screaming that "I need it".. " this is about realizing that we are being ripped off to the tune of 25% of our health care dollars. If you think that is a good deal I can't help you but the majority of Americans now realize we can do better.

 

[HUGGY]

What a piece of propoganda.

If you guys were right about this, or the economy, or the war, why are you approaching this problem the same way you approach every problem? Deny there is a problem for as long as you can, do nothing about it when you are in charge, Have prices go up 101% after you get into office, and then lie and scare people into thinking the liberal approach will cause the exact problems your own status quo is guilty of?

Hightower Lowdown | The four Big Lies about universal health care

This debunks all your bullshit.

We want exactly what Senators get. SINGLE PAYER. Choices! No pre existing conditions! Inexpensive! Covers everyone!

We decided a long time ago that education was important. We made it MANDATORY for every kid. This is more important.

Yesterday this guy who sells insurance called the Ed Schultz show crying that this would put 15,000 agents out of work in Dallas alone, or something like that. HA! How's it feel bitches? You didn't mind sending manufacturing jobs overseas. You didn't mind putting truckers out of jobs. Now it is your turn. Go find another fucking job. Maybe you can work for the humain society euthenizing kittens.

The facts are clear. 50-60 MILLION americans have NO health care liver, kidney transplants 60 years old or anything.

 

[MaggieMae]

Dick Cheney, George Bush, John Boehner, your parents, my parents, and retired military vets are all on taxpayer funded public healthcare. And I haven't heard them complaining about it.


why don't we ask them how they like it, rather than rely on the opinons of a rightwing blog author?

aparently RD you have never met an elderly person that has the "GOVT. FUNDED HEALTHCARE"......my parents had it and when both needed care beyond what MEDICARE would cover,in order to get the needed care we were going to have to sell ALL their assets and turn their house over to the Govt.....and then they would cover what they needed.....yea great system....i am sure the elderly are eagerly waiting to turn their assets over to the govt.in return for needed care....

What's the alternative? Your house? What if one parent has advanced Alzheimers? Ever seen anyone suffering from that? They stare blankly into space, and if lying down, arms and legs flail just as if they were just born. There was a time families took care of their elders, but those days are long gone.

There are ways to get around the question of assets BEFORE someone is placed in a nursing home. Real simple ways, like transferring wealth to trusts or selling real property to family members beforehand. If an elderly person is all alone anyway and has a serious illness, I doubt s/he would care whether the government takes the assets or not. I sure wouldn't. I can't spend it immobilized or dead.

 

[wihosa]

Was that 6 weeks for emergency care?
I call bullshit.

I had extreme pain shooting dowm my leg (sciatica). It was completly dibilitating. I would wake from a dead sleep in so much pain that it brought me to tears. After four weeks of taking endocet I was becoming addicted yet I had to wait for my back injection. I would call it an emergency, but I had to wait.

Haha, sciatica.
A far cry from an emergency like a compound fracture or a bleeding eyeball. The fact that you want compare a sciatica to an actual emergency medical need is ridiculous.

Well you certainly are not a compassionate conservative are you? Even so I hope you never have to go through what I did. Ask around, many have had sciatica, if you ever do, try to remember what you said here.

 

[MaggieMae]

And once again.. as an adult in a country based on freedom and liberty... NOBODY FUCKING OWES YOU A GODDAMN THING TOWARDS YOUR PERSONAL CARE OR WELL BEING

Tell that to returning Iraqi vets and their families.

you mean the ones Obama suggested should pay for their own Ins.?

As is the customary misinterpretation by pubbies, that wasn't what it was all about. The intent (which never got off the ground, by the way) was so that the veterans didn't have to wait forever for the VA to get through its own red tape. But the whole thing got twisted by the Foxhounds who, of course, take everything they say as gospel.

 

[MaggieMae]

Ah yes, the 'rugged individual' argument. Everybody in this country pays tax. The idea that some don't pay tax is a lie.

I love how the righties are always saying that people who don't pay tax are getting a refund. This is a lie. It's true that some don't pay 'income tax' but those people do pay a tax on their income, it's just not called income tax. It's called FICA and it's paid by most people on the first dollar they make and they pay it on every dollar they make. Everyone pays sales tax. Everyone pays property tax, either directly or indirectly.

The government exists to be what the people decide it should be. If we want to pool our resources to provide health insurance for everyone we can do that.

This is why right wingers just don't get it.

Pool WHO's resources ???????????

Yours.

Yeah, Heaven Forbid you should be asked to contribute to the health and welfare of the citizens of your country. Since you got yours, fuck no.

 

[Iriemon]

which means those that pay taxes will be providing it for everyone, whether they pay taxes or not...

it's true that some don't pay 'income tax' but those people do pay a tax on their income, it's just not called income tax. it's called fica and it's paid by most people on the first dollar they make and they pay it on every dollar they make. Everyone pays sales tax. Everyone pays property tax, either directly or indirectly.

wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong

idiot leftist

#1 - not all people pay income taxes.... This is an undisputed fact

1. All people who work legally pay a tax on their income, that's a fact. If you think that the name of a tax makes a difference, that's your poor ability critical thinking at work.

Well lefty... the fed is not running on state tax income

This bullshit that everyone pays income taxes is about as much of a myth as the Clinton surplus

lmfao!

This exchange is too funny.

Wihosa points out that while many don't pay income taxes they pay FICA. Meanwhile DD calls him an idiot, argues that some don't pay income taxes (which Wihosa admitted) and then talks about state taxes! LOL!

This deserves a spot on the liberal v. conservative thread.

BTW, there was a surplus under Clinton, proved here if anyone is interested.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/econo...ng-the-clinton-administration-was-a-myth.html

 

[MaggieMae]

Funny... a benefit of employment.... for the likes of the Military, Bush, Clinton, Cheney, Carter, etc

Not exactly the same of just giving it away

But nice try

Giving it away? Hey we will be paying taxes to pay for it. Nothing going to be given away. The difference is that there will not be a middle man (insurance companies) taking a cut for doing nothing. All the money will go to medical expenses instead of fat cat corporate CEOs.

Why is it that right wingers love to get screwed by big buisness?

"All the money will go to medical expenses" rather than "middle men taking a cut for doing nothing"? Which government are YOU talking about? And what color is the sky on your planet?

Why is it that left wingers love to get screwed by big government?

Where does it go now? Why do insurance premiums continue to rise on average of 7% annually to the point they are prohibitive just for basics and then with a huge deductible at the outset? Do you people EVER actually look into facts?

 

[MaggieMae]

Guess what, everyone stands in line to get health care. I had to wait 6 weeks to get an injection in my back to relieve extreme pain and I have Kaiser.

Trying to scare people about the availablity of healthcare with a single payer system isn't working anymore. I've met and talked to quite a few people from Canada and Europe (Britain and Sweden) who report no wait times for emergency care.

Was that 6 weeks for emergency care?
I call bullshit.

I had extreme pain shooting dowm my leg (sciatica). It was completly dibilitating. I would wake from a dead sleep in so much pain that it brought me to tears. After four weeks of taking endocet I was becoming addicted yet I had to wait for my back injection. I would call it an emergency, but I had to wait.

Poor people have been known to die in emergency rooms in the United States waiting to be seen. There are horror stories anywhere you look.

Personally, I wouldn't go to a hospital unless I was dragged in unconscious. Now THAT'S where the horror stories abound.

 

[auditor0007]

whats good enough for the government leaders should be good enough for the voters...if they get "free" (its paid for by the taxpayers) why shouldnt the taxpayers?

well,, if you had listened to the posted video you would know that what you get for "free" is a chance to stand in line and wait for healthcare,,,sometimes til you no longer need it. now you don't really think they are gonna make the obamalama wiat? doya? or any of the congresscritters? even the tax evading congresscritters...

Here is the problem. In the US, we pay twice as much for healthcare as most countries with universal healthcare. We are not receiving value for our money. At the same time, these countries with universal healthcare are not paying enough, and therefore they suffer by not receiving adequate and timely care.

The answer lies somewhere between their system and ours, where costs should play a factor in healthcare, but it should not be the determining factor. People in countries such as Canada and most of Europe, are not going to receive better care without paying more. We, on the other hand, should be able to find a way to reduce costs somewhat, while still maintaining excellent care.

To date, the best system I have seen is that of Switzerland. They have universal healthcare, but it is private in nature. The key to their system is that health insurance in purchased by the individual; it is not a benefit provided by the employer. So everyone must purchase a private policy. For those who cannot afford one, the government subsidizes them, but they still pay something towards their own healthcare.

Because of the way the system is set up, most people purchase what we would consider major medical policies, which are not nearly as expensive as the A to Z policies most people in the US prefer. However, that means that the basics are paid for out of pocket. The good thing is that nobody can be denied or given higher premiums due to pre-existing conditions. But then again, every adult pays for insurance. Compliance is 99.5%.

Here is the kicker. With 99.5% of the population having coverage, the government share of healthcare spending is only around 24% compared to 45% in the US, and they pay substantially less overall.

What I find disheartening, is that the argument on healthcare here in the US always boils down to one or the other; either leave it exactly as it is, which fails to address the staggering cost, or move toward a national one payer system. Neither of these two seem to be the answer, yet we can't find anyone willing to discuss other options. To me, that is sad that the intellect among those interested in this issue is so narrow minded.

Universal Health Care - Change.org: Swiping Ideas from the Swiss

 

[alan1]

I had extreme pain shooting dowm my leg (sciatica). It was completly dibilitating. I would wake from a dead sleep in so much pain that it brought me to tears. After four weeks of taking endocet I was becoming addicted yet I had to wait for my back injection. I would call it an emergency, but I had to wait.

Haha, sciatica.
A far cry from an emergency like a compound fracture or a bleeding eyeball. The fact that you want compare a sciatica to an actual emergency medical need is ridiculous.

Well you certainly are not a compassionate conservative are you? Even so I hope you never have to go through what I did. Ask around, many have had sciatica, if you ever do, try to remember what you said here.

Pain isn't an emergency darling.
I hope you never have to go through the potential loss of an eye like I did. For some odd reason the hospital emergency room put my damaged eye at a higher priority than sciatica. Gee, maybe it was a more critical situation than just pain.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

What a piece of propoganda.

If you guys were right about this, or the economy, or the war, why are you approaching this problem the same way you approach every problem? Deny there is a problem for as long as you can, do nothing about it when you are in charge, Have prices go up 101% after you get into office, and then lie and scare people into thinking the liberal approach will cause the exact problems your own status quo is guilty of?

Hightower Lowdown | The four Big Lies about universal health care

This debunks all your bullshit.

We want exactly what Senators get. SINGLE PAYER. Choices! No pre existing conditions! Inexpensive! Covers everyone!

We decided a long time ago that education was important. We made it MANDATORY for every kid. This is more important.

Yesterday this guy who sells insurance called the Ed Schultz show crying that this would put 15,000 agents out of work in Dallas alone, or something like that. HA! How's it feel bitches? You didn't mind sending manufacturing jobs overseas. You didn't mind putting truckers out of jobs. Now it is your turn. Go find another fucking job. Maybe you can work for the humain society euthenizing kittens.

The facts are clear. 50-60 MILLION americans have NO health care liver, kidney transplants 60 years old or anything.

What facts?....more than half of those millions you whine about are ILLEGAL ALIENS....if we got rid of them our medical costs would plummet.....and we'd go back to having good, reasonably priced, top-of-the-line American health care...

 

[HUGGY]

What a piece of propoganda.

If you guys were right about this, or the economy, or the war, why are you approaching this problem the same way you approach every problem? Deny there is a problem for as long as you can, do nothing about it when you are in charge, Have prices go up 101% after you get into office, and then lie and scare people into thinking the liberal approach will cause the exact problems your own status quo is guilty of?

Hightower Lowdown | The four Big Lies about universal health care

This debunks all your bullshit.

We want exactly what Senators get. SINGLE PAYER. Choices! No pre existing conditions! Inexpensive! Covers everyone!

We decided a long time ago that education was important. We made it MANDATORY for every kid. This is more important.

Yesterday this guy who sells insurance called the Ed Schultz show crying that this would put 15,000 agents out of work in Dallas alone, or something like that. HA! How's it feel bitches? You didn't mind sending manufacturing jobs overseas. You didn't mind putting truckers out of jobs. Now it is your turn. Go find another fucking job. Maybe you can work for the humain society euthenizing kittens.

The facts are clear. 50-60 MILLION americans have NO health care liver, kidney transplants 60 years old or anything.

What facts?....more than half of those millions you whine about are ILLEGAL ALIENS....if we got rid of them our medical costs would plummet.....and we'd go back to having good, reasonably priced, top-of-the-line American health care...

Excuse me...I was clear ...AMERICANS now go fuck yourself sparky.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

What a piece of propoganda.

If you guys were right about this, or the economy, or the war, why are you approaching this problem the same way you approach every problem? Deny there is a problem for as long as you can, do nothing about it when you are in charge, Have prices go up 101% after you get into office, and then lie and scare people into thinking the liberal approach will cause the exact problems your own status quo is guilty of?

Hightower Lowdown | The four Big Lies about universal health care

This debunks all your bullshit.

We want exactly what Senators get. SINGLE PAYER. Choices! No pre existing conditions! Inexpensive! Covers everyone!

We decided a long time ago that education was important. We made it MANDATORY for every kid. This is more important.

Yesterday this guy who sells insurance called the Ed Schultz show crying that this would put 15,000 agents out of work in Dallas alone, or something like that. HA! How's it feel bitches? You didn't mind sending manufacturing jobs overseas. You didn't mind putting truckers out of jobs. Now it is your turn. Go find another fucking job. Maybe you can work for the humain society euthenizing kittens.

Hightower? The 70s called and they said they want their thoroughly played out leftist hack back...

And forget about Ed Schultze... I have PERSONALLY laid that idiot OPEN on his own show... he's an imbecile... he just seems bright when idiots like you are close enough to force the comparison.

Nationalized, or socialised or Single payer healthcare is not mathematically tenable... and that is because the human system is in a constant state of deterioration from shortly after birth; and where a system is designed around an insurance paradigm, it violates the singular essence of insurance, which is to offset losses from unforeseen liabilities...

Where it is designed around an entitlement, the scope of the system is forced to provide care for volumes which it cannot hope to sustain... as it requires that what the sum of individuals could not sustain should by sustained by the collective. << that's too deep for you Bobo... just let it go.

Socialized medicine is healthcare by the lowest common denominator... it is all promise and no pay... and will result in what will provide you to look back upon the glory days of healthcare, when one belonged to an HMO.

Let the record reflect that the same idiots that are now pushing killing off the American Healthcare system, and replacing it with Nationalized Healthcare... are the SAME PEOPLE that gave you that HMO YOU HATE!

 

[driveby]

Dick Cheney, George Bush, John Boehner, your parents, my parents, and retired military vets are all on taxpayer funded public healthcare. And I haven't heard them complaining about it.


why don't we ask them how they like it, rather than rely on the opinons of a rightwing blog author?

Funny... a benefit of employment.... for the likes of the Military, Bush, Clinton, Cheney, Carter, etc

Not exactly the same of just giving it away

But nice try

Giving it away? Hey we will be paying taxes to pay for it. Nothing going to be given away. The difference is that there will not be a middle man (insurance companies) taking a cut for doing nothing. All the money will go to medical expenses instead of fat cat corporate CEOs.

Why is it that right wingers love to get screwed by big buisness?

CEO's or Government Bureaucrat's ? You're trading the measles for the mumps .........

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Dick Cheney, George Bush, John Boehner, your parents, my parents, and retired military vets are all on taxpayer funded public healthcare. And I haven't heard them complaining about it.


why don't we ask them how they like it, rather than rely on the opinons of a rightwing blog author?

Funny... a benefit of employment.... for the likes of the Military, Bush, Clinton, Cheney, Carter, etc

Not exactly the same of just giving it away

But nice try

Giving it away? Hey we will be paying taxes to pay for it. Nothing going to be given away. The difference is that there will not be a middle man (insurance companies) taking a cut for doing nothing. All the money will go to medical expenses instead of fat cat corporate CEOs.

Why is it that right wingers love to get screwed by big buisness?

ROFLMNAO... Oh GOD! Now THAT's PRECIOUS and what makes it so precious is she actually believes that drivel.

There is NOTHING less efficient than a Government project... NOTHING! And you're desperate to apply that trainwreck to the healthcare system. ARE YOU NUTS?

Have you NEVER experienced the independent attitude of a government bureaucracy, ANYWHERE? Sis... if you think that a CORPORATION doesn't give a crap about you and your problems you haven't SEEN the absence of concern until you're looking into the eyes of some clerk who is being paid by the government... and just IMAGINE the skill sets of a doctor whose ambition is to work for the GOVERNMENT!

You're an ignoramous... of the first order.