Before Racing To National Healthcare: Listen

[Harry Dresden]

Faces of government healthcare:

Faces of Government Healthcare

Except that nobody is presently talking about installing "government" universal health care. Try to pay attention.

But even if they were, why is there the erroneous perception that we would follow the models of Canada or Great Britain? If universal health care were being proposed, a plan would be developed which does not include what does not work well elsewhere, and injecting what does work, then designing it after our own health profiles.

well we can hope.....

 

[alan1]

Guess what, everyone stands in line to get health care. I had to wait 6 weeks to get an injection in my back to relieve extreme pain and I have Kaiser.

Trying to scare people about the availablity of healthcare with a single payer system isn't working anymore. I've met and talked to quite a few people from Canada and Europe (Britain and Sweden) who report no wait times for emergency care.

Was that 6 weeks for emergency care?
I call bullshit.

 

[Harry Dresden]

I have relatives in Toronto, and although I haven't talked with them in recent years, the last time they visited the States, we had a kitchen table discussion over this, and they both said that, just as in the United States, the "horror stories" we hear have been plucked from isolated incidents and blown out of proportion to become all-inclusive "examples" of Canadian health care. Although these relatives could well afford their own health coverage, and do have secondary coverage, for day-to-day health needs at a PREVENTIVE level, they say that it is well worth the taxes even if they, personally, don't avail themselves too often. But others do, and without such free preventive care, would be subject to more serious and expensive protracted illness, which would cost the government more in the long run. Sound familiar?

my son has some good friends in Canada....one of them has MS....he is not to happy with his waiting around for needed treatment....the other 2 say different then what your friends say...one of them is a nurse....

 

[Harry Dresden]

And once again.. as an adult in a country based on freedom and liberty... NOBODY FUCKING OWES YOU A GODDAMN THING TOWARDS YOUR PERSONAL CARE OR WELL BEING

Tell that to returning Iraqi vets and their families.

you mean the ones Obama suggested should pay for their own Ins.?

 

[dilloduck]

Giving it away? Hey we will be paying taxes to pay for it. Nothing going to be given away. The difference is that there will not be a middle man (insurance companies) taking a cut for doing nothing. All the money will go to medical expenses instead of fat cat corporate CEOs.

Why is it that right wingers love to get screwed by big buisness?

Which means those that pay taxes will be providing it for everyone, whether they pay taxes or not...

Sorry... but you are not OWED a damn thing for your personal care, health, and well being from anyone else on this fucking earth

You're an adult... earn it and pay for it yourself

The government does not exist to be your insurance company.. what next? Government single payer auto insurance?

This is why left wingers just don't get it...

Ah yes, the 'rugged individual' argument. Everybody in this country pays tax. The idea that some don't pay tax is a lie.

I love how the righties are always saying that people who don't pay tax are getting a refund. This is a lie. It's true that some don't pay 'income tax' but those people do pay a tax on their income, it's just not called income tax. It's called FICA and it's paid by most people on the first dollar they make and they pay it on every dollar they make. Everyone pays sales tax. Everyone pays property tax, either directly or indirectly.

The government exists to be what the people decide it should be. If we want to pool our resources to provide health insurance for everyone we can do that.

This is why right wingers just don't get it.

Pool WHO's resources ???????????

 

[alan1]

Which means those that pay taxes will be providing it for everyone, whether they pay taxes or not...

Sorry... but you are not OWED a damn thing for your personal care, health, and well being from anyone else on this fucking earth

You're an adult... earn it and pay for it yourself

The government does not exist to be your insurance company.. what next? Government single payer auto insurance?

This is why left wingers just don't get it...

Ah yes, the 'rugged individual' argument. Everybody in this country pays tax. The idea that some don't pay tax is a lie.

I love how the righties are always saying that people who don't pay tax are getting a refund. This is a lie. It's true that some don't pay 'income tax' but those people do pay a tax on their income, it's just not called income tax. It's called FICA and it's paid by most people on the first dollar they make and they pay it on every dollar they make. Everyone pays sales tax. Everyone pays property tax, either directly or indirectly.

The government exists to be what the people decide it should be. If we want to pool our resources to provide health insurance for everyone we can do that.

This is why right wingers just don't get it.

Pool WHO's resources ???????????

Yours.

 

[dilloduck]

Ah yes, the 'rugged individual' argument. Everybody in this country pays tax. The idea that some don't pay tax is a lie.

I love how the righties are always saying that people who don't pay tax are getting a refund. This is a lie. It's true that some don't pay 'income tax' but those people do pay a tax on their income, it's just not called income tax. It's called FICA and it's paid by most people on the first dollar they make and they pay it on every dollar they make. Everyone pays sales tax. Everyone pays property tax, either directly or indirectly.

The government exists to be what the people decide it should be. If we want to pool our resources to provide health insurance for everyone we can do that.

This is why right wingers just don't get it.

Pool WHO's resources ???????????

Yours.

that's what I thought

 

[Harry Dresden]

Just encourage your republican representatives to run on a platform of eliminating Medicare, and letting seniors get insurance on the free market, if you feel that way.

i am not the only one dude....while going through this with my folkes i talked to a dozen "kids" who were givin the same option as we were ....give us their house and we will give the treatment they need......if you want "national health care" they have got to guarantee that they will treat the person until death....without taking their assets....otherwise FUCK IT....

 

[Cecilie1200]

Dick Cheney, George Bush, John Boehner, your parents, my parents, and retired military vets are all on taxpayer funded public healthcare. And I haven't heard them complaining about it.


why don't we ask them how they like it, rather than rely on the opinons of a rightwing blog author?

Funny... a benefit of employment.... for the likes of the Military, Bush, Clinton, Cheney, Carter, etc

Not exactly the same of just giving it away

But nice try

Giving it away? Hey we will be paying taxes to pay for it. Nothing going to be given away. The difference is that there will not be a middle man (insurance companies) taking a cut for doing nothing. All the money will go to medical expenses instead of fat cat corporate CEOs.

Why is it that right wingers love to get screwed by big buisness?

"All the money will go to medical expenses" rather than "middle men taking a cut for doing nothing"? Which government are YOU talking about? And what color is the sky on your planet?

Why is it that left wingers love to get screwed by big government?

 

[Cecilie1200]

whats good enough for the government leaders should be good enough for the voters...if they get "free" (its paid for by the taxpayers) why shouldnt the taxpayers?

Because the taxpayers aren't government employees. Politicians are. Like most large employers, the government offers health insurance as an employment benefit.

 

[Cecilie1200]

whats good enough for the government leaders should be good enough for the voters...if they get "free" (its paid for by the taxpayers) why shouldnt the taxpayers?

well,, if you had listened to the posted video you would know that what you get for "free" is a chance to stand in line and wait for healthcare,,,sometimes til you no longer need it. now you don't really think they are gonna make the obamalama wiat? doya? or any of the congresscritters? even the tax evading congresscritters...

Guess what, everyone stands in line to get health care. I had to wait 6 weeks to get an injection in my back to relieve extreme pain and I have Kaiser.

Trying to scare people about the availablity of healthcare with a single payer system isn't working anymore. I've met and talked to quite a few people from Canada and Europe (Britain and Sweden) who report no wait times for emergency care.

Trying to scare people the opposite way with anecdotes isn't working. It doesn't matter what you, personally, did, or what your buddies, personally, report. What matters is the general overall perspective of each nation's healthcare. And wait times in Canada and Great Britain have been open scandals in those countries for a while now, such that both have started incorporating aspects of privatization to alleviate them.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Want to bet there are more horror stories of people unfairly treated by private insurance companies than of people who were by national health care services?

Yes.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Dick Cheney, George Bush, John Boehner, your parents, my parents, and retired military vets are all on taxpayer funded public healthcare. And I haven't heard them complaining about it.


why don't we ask them how they like it, rather than rely on the opinons of a rightwing blog author?

Funny... a benefit of employment.... for the likes of the Military, Bush, Clinton, Cheney, Carter, etc

Not exactly the same of just giving it away

But nice try

Point taken, but why should they get it FOR LIFE? How about if exclusive federal employees are required to opt for COLA coverage until they can buy their own health insurance once they leave government employ? [Spinning wheels..ain't gonna happen...]

Not all of them do. The President and Vice President do because they generally retire after holding office, or go be diplomats or activists. They're not likely to go out and get a regular, paying job with benefits afterwards. Besides, those are two very unique, high-pressure jobs which are only going to produce a very, very small pool of people being taken care of at any one time.

Military vets, I believe, do not necessarily get coverage for life. It depends on whether they retire from the military after a long career, or sustain a lasting disability due to their service, unless I'm very mistaken. In which case, the retirement would make healthcare an employment benefit tied to their pension, and disability . . . I think if someone becomes disabled in the service of their country, it's the least the country owes them in return to provide them healthcare.

 

[DiamondDave]

Ah yes, the 'rugged individual' argument. Everybody in this country pays tax. The idea that some don't pay tax is a lie.

I love how the righties are always saying that people who don't pay tax are getting a refund. This is a lie. It's true that some don't pay 'income tax' but those people do pay a tax on their income, it's just not called income tax. It's called FICA and it's paid by most people on the first dollar they make and they pay it on every dollar they make. Everyone pays sales tax. Everyone pays property tax, either directly or indirectly.

The government exists to be what the people decide it should be. If we want to pool our resources to provide health insurance for everyone we can do that.

This is why right wingers just don't get it.

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG

Idiot leftist

#1 - Not all people pay income taxes.... this is an undisputed FACT
#2 - FICA goes to something SPECIFIC, does it not?
#3 - Property tax is not assessed by the federal government... but nice try
#4 - If you don't OWN property you don't PAY property tax
#5 - Any use of taxation for individual care of adults would have it that some are paying more for the same care, than others. I do not see anyone calling for the same AMOUNT of tax to be taken from every person to pay for the same PRODUCT or SERIES of PRODUCTS
#6 - By the nature of what is proposed, those who sit and earn nothing would be sapping off of the rest of the taxpaying citizenry

And once again.. as an adult in a country based on freedom and liberty... NOBODY FUCKING OWES YOU A GODDAMN THING TOWARDS YOUR PERSONAL CARE OR WELL BEING

Oh... and BTW... we have a little thing called a constitution in this republic that keeps us from inherently suffering the tyranny of pure democracy and the whim of the masses... and that is one thing the little extreme lefties such as yourself cannot seem to understand

1. All people who work legally pay a tax on their income, that's a fact. If you think that the name of a tax makes a difference, that's your poor ability critical thinking at work.
2. In theory, FICA goes to something specific, but the reality is that only 2/3 of the money collected for Social Security goes to pay for SS. The rest is 'borrowed' by the general fund so in reality every one is paying into the general fund.
3. I never said anything about federal or state taxes, only that everyone pays tax.
4. If you don't own property but only rent or lease property, let me assure you, you are paying the property tax through your rent payments. No property owner pays the property taxes out of his own pocket, they all charge enough rent to cover the property tax.
5. There are always inequities in tax payments, people with higher value homes pay more tax and thus pay more than others for their services be it public education, fire or police protection, etc.
6. There will always be some who will not work but the reality is that the vast majority of people want to be employed and therefore will pay tax. But to argue that therefore the rest of us should continue to be ripped off by the insurance companies is silly.

We as citizens can decide to pool our resources through taxations to provide for ourselves quality healthcare for all. You can continue to hurl invectives at those of us who think it is a good idea but it doesn't hide the weakness of your arguments.

If legislation is passed, it will be entirely consistent with the Constitution, but that same Constitution will continue to protect your right to make your silly arguments.

Well lefty... the fed is not running on state tax income


This bullshit that everyone pays income taxes is about as much of a myth as the Clinton surplus

No... everyone does not pay income tax... there are a LARGE number of people who indeed get every cent and more back than what they paid into the system for witholding... but nice try


Hmmm. inequity in property tax BECAUSE YOU OWN MORE PROPERTY OR MORE VALUABLE PROPERTY... nice try again... just like you pay more in total sales tax when you buy a Porsche compared to a Kia... don't mean you are getting taxed at a higher rate... and no, if you do not own property, you do not pay the tax... your landlord may, and may pass costs off accordingly to you.... but hmmmm, kinda sounds like the argument with BUSINESS TAX INCREASES NOW DON'T IT??..

And I will argue that you should work to pay for your own needs.... including health care... you're a goddamn adult... pay for it and take care of it like an adult instead of a sniveling child throwing a tantrum for a Hershey bar in the check out line, screaming that "I need it".. and I will argue that the rest of us are not responsible for your personal care and your personal wants and needs.. YOU are

 

[DiamondDave]

Funny... a benefit of employment.... for the likes of the Military, Bush, Clinton, Cheney, Carter, etc

Not exactly the same of just giving it away

But nice try

Point taken, but why should they get it FOR LIFE? How about if exclusive federal employees are required to opt for COLA coverage until they can buy their own health insurance once they leave government employ? [Spinning wheels..ain't gonna happen...]

Not all of them do. The President and Vice President do because they generally retire after holding office, or go be diplomats or activists. They're not likely to go out and get a regular, paying job with benefits afterwards. Besides, those are two very unique, high-pressure jobs which are only going to produce a very, very small pool of people being taken care of at any one time.

Military vets, I believe, do not necessarily get coverage for life. It depends on whether they retire from the military after a long career, or sustain a lasting disability due to their service, unless I'm very mistaken. In which case, the retirement would make healthcare an employment benefit tied to their pension, and disability . . . I think if someone becomes disabled in the service of their country, it's the least the country owes them in return to provide them healthcare.

Bingo... not all vets get coverage for life... I for one do not

And if you would offer legislation that states that politicians do not after they are out of office, unless they served for 20 years or so, I would not argue that... as long as it is known ahead of time

But I guarantee you that the insurance benefits who served their country fr 20+ years or sustained and injury while in, more than deserved and earned that benefit

 

[DiamondDave]

And once again.. as an adult in a country based on freedom and liberty... NOBODY FUCKING OWES YOU A GODDAMN THING TOWARDS YOUR PERSONAL CARE OR WELL BEING

Tell that to returning Iraqi vets and their families.

Owed for doing nothing and earning it as an employment benefit..... big difference

nice try

 

[DiamondDave]

Ah yes, the 'rugged individual' argument. Everybody in this country pays tax. The idea that some don't pay tax is a lie.

I love how the righties are always saying that people who don't pay tax are getting a refund. This is a lie. It's true that some don't pay 'income tax' but those people do pay a tax on their income, it's just not called income tax. It's called FICA and it's paid by most people on the first dollar they make and they pay it on every dollar they make. Everyone pays sales tax. Everyone pays property tax, either directly or indirectly.

The government exists to be what the people decide it should be. If we want to pool our resources to provide health insurance for everyone we can do that.

This is why right wingers just don't get it.

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG

Idiot leftist

#1 - Not all people pay income taxes.... this is an undisputed FACT
#2 - FICA goes to something SPECIFIC, does it not?
#3 - Property tax is not assessed by the federal government... but nice try
#4 - If you don't OWN property you don't PAY property tax
#5 - Any use of taxation for individual care of adults would have it that some are paying more for the same care, than others. I do not see anyone calling for the same AMOUNT of tax to be taken from every person to pay for the same PRODUCT or SERIES of PRODUCTS
#6 - By the nature of what is proposed, those who sit and earn nothing would be sapping off of the rest of the taxpaying citizenry

And once again.. as an adult in a country based on freedom and liberty... NOBODY FUCKING OWES YOU A GODDAMN THING TOWARDS YOUR PERSONAL CARE OR WELL BEING

Oh... and BTW... we have a little thing called a constitution in this republic that keeps us from inherently suffering the tyranny of pure democracy and the whim of the masses... and that is one thing the little extreme lefties such as yourself cannot seem to understand

Please get out your constitution and read about the general welfare clause, the taxing and spending clause... read Alexander Hamilton in the federalist papers, US vs. Butler....

You guys are raving lunatics that have no eduation to back up your meme of "OMG OMG We have a constitution! You're shitting on the constitution!!!!!!111!!!"

Promoting the general welfare and providing for it are 2 different things... and the General Welfare is indeed much different as what was intended to what you are trying to shovel now... Founding fathers never intended for individuals to have their every need taken care of my the government.. try having some education about the Constitution and the intent of the founding fathers

 

[alan1]

Funny... a benefit of employment.... for the likes of the Military, Bush, Clinton, Cheney, Carter, etc

Not exactly the same of just giving it away

But nice try

Giving it away? Hey we will be paying taxes to pay for it. Nothing going to be given away. The difference is that there will not be a middle man (insurance companies) taking a cut for doing nothing. All the money will go to medical expenses instead of fat cat corporate CEOs.

Why is it that right wingers love to get screwed by big buisness?

"All the money will go to medical expenses" rather than "middle men taking a cut for doing nothing"? Which government are YOU talking about? And what color is the sky on your planet?

Why is it that left wingers love to get screwed by big government?

I think it's incestuous desire.
They want mommy/daddy government to provide for their every need/want/desire, including sex.

 

[editec]

I currently have socialized medicine..through the VA.

I'm reasonably satisfied with it.

I got in to see a doctor faster at the VA than I used to be able to see my own doctor when I had private HC.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Dick Cheney, George Bush, John Boehner, your parents, my parents, and retired military vets are all on taxpayer funded public healthcare. And I haven't heard them complaining about it.


why don't we ask them how they like it, rather than rely on the opinons of a rightwing blog author?

Funny... a benefit of employment.... for the likes of the Military, Bush, Clinton, Cheney, Carter, etc

Not exactly the same of just giving it away

But nice try

Giving it away? Hey we will be paying taxes to pay for it. Nothing going to be given away. The difference is that there will not be a middle man (insurance companies) taking a cut for doing nothing. All the money will go to medical expenses instead of fat cat corporate CEOs.

Why is it that right wingers love to get screwed by big buisness?

You mean all the money will be going to pay for what the government decides is appropriate for you.