Bailing out GM vs. Banks

[Votto]

I'm often puzzled by those on the left. For example, those on the Occupy Wall Street side wish to destroy corporate America but favor larger governemnt. What do they want, do they want to destroy them so that the government can bail them out again?

Then there is GM. Everyone on the left supports bailing out GM, however, when you talk about bailing out the banks it makes their blood boil.

Why?

 

[midcan5]

My blood never boils, but the answer is pretty simple. The banks were motivated by greed and dishonest deals, GM was, and is, a victim of the downturn caused by the banks, investment firms, and the rating industry. The loss of the regulatory structure has caused greed to run rampant. And while GM needs to manage it assets and its wage and retirement benefits better, GM contributes to America because a great deal is still made here. Now the question becomes why do Americans not support America by buying American? The Japanese and Koreans support their businesses through collaboration etc, but the right wing in America hates the government so much they will screw the American worker to somehow or someway get back at government, a paradoxical situation.

Have you ever even once heard a right wing newscaster praise America and its workers? Have you ever heard a right wing conservative, republican, or conservative libertarian say buy American? Have you? Why not? Buy American - support all Americans, including yourself.

Buy American = "Because Ford, GM and Chrysler conduct far more of their research, design, engineering, manufacturing and assembly work in the U.S. than foreign automakers do, buying a Ford, GM, or Chrysler supports almost three times as many jobs as buying the average foreign automobile. Some comparisons are even more striking. Buying a Ford supports 3.5 times more jobs than buying a Hyundai. Comparing a Honda and a Hyundai? Buying a Honda supports more than 2 times more jobs." The Level Field Institute

"With all their faults, trade unions have done more for humanity than any other organization of men that ever existed" Clarence Darrow

.

 

[KevinWestern]

I'm often puzzled by those on the left. For example, those on the Occupy Wall Street side wish to destroy corporate America but favor larger governemnt. What do they want, do they want to destroy them so that the government can bail them out again?

Then there is GM. Everyone on the left supports bailing out GM, however, when you talk about bailing out the banks it makes their blood boil.

Why?

Well, for starters, the bank bailout was much larger and is still going on today on a huge scale. Secondly, it was fraud on the part of the banking industry that created the artificial bubble that caused the giant collapse of our economy (ie deceptive AAA ratings on shit securities, deceptive selling practices of those shit securities, and – at the core – fraudulent representation of income, ect on mortgage loans). Doing illegal stuff to cause a crash while getting rich and then expecting tax payers to foot the bill is not a good combination for a good rapport with the general public.

Semi-related comment: Why is no one on the left at all upset that President Obama has done virtually nothing to reprimand the banks for their illegal activities, and virtually nothing to make sure it doesn’t happen again? Even George Bush – the guy every Democrat hates – prosecuted way more white collared criminals while in office (ie Enron).

 

[Underhill]

I'm often puzzled by those on the left. For example, those on the Occupy Wall Street side wish to destroy corporate America but favor larger governemnt. What do they want, do they want to destroy them so that the government can bail them out again?

Then there is GM. Everyone on the left supports bailing out GM, however, when you talk about bailing out the banks it makes their blood boil.

Why?

Well, for starters, the bank bailout was much larger and is still going on today on a huge scale. Secondly, it was fraud on the part of the banking industry that created the artificial bubble that caused the giant collapse of our economy (ie deceptive AAA ratings on shit securities, deceptive selling practices of those shit securities, and – at the core – fraudulent representation of income, ect on mortgage loans). Doing illegal stuff to cause a crash while getting rich and then expecting tax payers to foot the bill is not a good combination for a good rapport with the general public.

Agreed.

Semi-related comment: Why is no one on the left at all upset that President Obama has done virtually nothing to reprimand the banks for their illegal activities, and virtually nothing to make sure it doesn’t happen again? Even George Bush – the guy every Democrat hates – prosecuted way more white collared criminals while in office (ie Enron).

Clearly you don't talk to too many people on the left. Because all of them I know are upset about it.

The problem is that with our two party system, the options are Obama who shares some of their views but has turned out to be way more moderate (and friendly to banks/insurance companies) than they like, or a republican who shares none of them.

It's the same problem a lot of conservatives had with Bush.

 

[oldfart]

I'm often puzzled by those on the left. For example, those on the Occupy Wall Street side wish to destroy corporate America

I by "destroy corporate America" you refer to a preference for well-regulated competitive, stable markets to cronyism, monopolistic conduct, and and illegal business practices, I plead guilty. Most apologists for big business would not recognize a free market if it hit them in the balls. That's where I try to aim.

 

[jwoodie]

I'm often puzzled by those on the left. For example, those on the Occupy Wall Street side wish to destroy corporate America but favor larger governemnt. What do they want, do they want to destroy them so that the government can bail them out again?

Then there is GM. Everyone on the left supports bailing out GM, however, when you talk about bailing out the banks it makes their blood boil.

Why?

Because the GM bailout was nothing more than a huge political payoff to the UAW. If allowed to file a normal bankruptcy, GM would have been able to renegotiate its contracts and operate in a much more efficient manner. At most, the government should have guaranteed the warranties of GM vehicles during that procedure.

Regarding opposition to the bank bailouts, why does the Left support bailing out Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac, who were just as responsible for bad loans?

 

[TNHarley]

^^ that

 

[Dugdale_Jukes]

And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves... - Matthew 21:12

In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. - John 2:14

Even a nutball should be able to understand that if Jesus le Christ wanted regulation of finance, maybe it's not the worst idea. Pharisees like Friedman, Greenspan, Levitt, and Rubin, induced 'gifted and talented' programs' gift to America, SmartBoy Clinton to sign any number of incremental deregulatory bills before going for the coup gutting Glass Steagall and legalizing low margin/no margin speculation in essential commodities with CFTMA.

Even more hilarious, the Bible has no prohibition of abortion at all and the only penalties for abortion are small fines against people who ACCIDENTALLY cause abortions in women not their wives. I get a kick out of listening to these halfwits making wild-eyed claims about stuff their own religious ancestors settled 2000 years ago and codified in their Bible for a thousand or so years.

Except in the minds of modern pharisees, other religious hustlers, and the nutball halfwits they stampede off the cliffs of reason every four years.

 

[KissMy]

It's all welfare for the rich & poor by screwing the middle class makers & job creators.

All our business are being sabotaged by the big government business cronies. We have to subsidize them as they use political loopholes to undermine ours. The big banks got a huge bail-out & have left us holding the bag for $2.2 Trillion that they will never re-pay even though they say they paid us back. Even after the Big Bank bail-out the 18 biggest banks get a constant $83 billion a year welfare subsidy. The rest of the banks got no subsidy or bail-out & 475 of them have failed in this country since 2007. We are also forced through the tax code to subsidize the rich making over $2 million a year.

Bailing out the UAW was also a stupid idea. Having a unionized export manufacturer spells doom. Unions are only useful in import business like dock workers & import big box retail stores.

 

[Trajan]

My blood never boils, but the answer is pretty simple. The banks were motivated by greed and dishonest deals, GM was, and is, a victim of the downturn caused by the banks, investment firms, and the rating industry. The loss of the regulatory structure has caused greed to run rampant. And while GM needs to manage it assets and its wage and retirement benefits better, GM contributes to America because a great deal is still made here. Now the question becomes why do Americans not support America by buying American? The Japanese and Koreans support their businesses through collaboration etc, but the right wing in America hates the government so much they will screw the American worker to somehow or someway get back at government, a paradoxical situation.

Have you ever even once heard a right wing newscaster praise America and its workers? Have you ever heard a right wing conservative, republican, or conservative libertarian say buy American? Have you? Why not? Buy American - support all Americans, including yourself.

Buy American = "Because Ford, GM and Chrysler conduct far more of their research, design, engineering, manufacturing and assembly work in the U.S. than foreign automakers do, buying a Ford, GM, or Chrysler supports almost three times as many jobs as buying the average foreign automobile. Some comparisons are even more striking. Buying a Ford supports 3.5 times more jobs than buying a Hyundai. Comparing a Honda and a Hyundai? Buying a Honda supports more than 2 times more jobs." The Level Field Institute

"With all their faults, trade unions have done more for humanity than any other organization of men that ever existed" Clarence Darrow

.

GM was, and is, a victim of the downturn caused by the banks, investment firms, and the rating industry

I don't know where you got that, or how, Those issues you mentioned are an argument as to mitigation. Banks and potential bond holders demanded more interest becasue they were bad bets, ratings agencies acted according to that.

GM et al were not victims of anything but, their own mgt.


Their poor mgt. , an adversarial workforce and poor design and marketing all of which at the end of the day fall on managements shoulders.

They gave in to the UAW time after time, poor car design, craftsmanship, slack and in fact stupid financing rules ( example- GMAC now Allied) etc. .

 

[Trajan]

And let me add, any references to GM as profitable etc. are illusions.

 

[KissMy]

And let me add, any references to GM as profitable etc. are illusions.

The government just sold a bunch more GM stock for a huge loss!

 

[PaulS1950]

Ford was well managed and did not take any "bailout" money and is still doing well. Why should the award poor management?

 

[TNHarley]

Ford was well managed and did not take any "bailout" money and is still doing well. Why should the award poor management?

They did get some. Wasnt NEAR as much 9 billion maybe? Not for sure about the numbers, but they got some, and payed it ALL back

 

[Votto]

I'm often puzzled by those on the left. For example, those on the Occupy Wall Street side wish to destroy corporate America but favor larger governemnt. What do they want, do they want to destroy them so that the government can bail them out again?

Then there is GM. Everyone on the left supports bailing out GM, however, when you talk about bailing out the banks it makes their blood boil.

Why?

Well, for starters, the bank bailout was much larger and is still going on today on a huge scale. Secondly, it was fraud on the part of the banking industry that created the artificial bubble that caused the giant collapse of our economy (ie deceptive AAA ratings on shit securities, deceptive selling practices of those shit securities, and – at the core – fraudulent representation of income, ect on mortgage loans). Doing illegal stuff to cause a crash while getting rich and then expecting tax payers to foot the bill is not a good combination for a good rapport with the general public.

Semi-related comment: Why is no one on the left at all upset that President Obama has done virtually nothing to reprimand the banks for their illegal activities, and virtually nothing to make sure it doesn’t happen again? Even George Bush – the guy every Democrat hates – prosecuted way more white collared criminals while in office (ie Enron).

Fraud? Who has been arrested? In fact, who has been charged with anything? Is Obama in on it or is he just ignorant?

 

[Votto]

My blood never boils, but the answer is pretty simple. The banks were motivated by greed and dishonest deals, GM was, and is, a victim of the downturn caused by the banks, investment firms, and the rating industry. The loss of the regulatory structure has caused greed to run rampant. And while GM needs to manage it assets and its wage and retirement benefits better, GM contributes to America because a great deal is still made here. Now the question becomes why do Americans not support America by buying American? The Japanese and Koreans support their businesses through collaboration etc, but the right wing in America hates the government so much they will screw the American worker to somehow or someway get back at government, a paradoxical situation.

Have you ever even once heard a right wing newscaster praise America and its workers? Have you ever heard a right wing conservative, republican, or conservative libertarian say buy American? Have you? Why not? Buy American - support all Americans, including yourself.

Buy American = "Because Ford, GM and Chrysler conduct far more of their research, design, engineering, manufacturing and assembly work in the U.S. than foreign automakers do, buying a Ford, GM, or Chrysler supports almost three times as many jobs as buying the average foreign automobile. Some comparisons are even more striking. Buying a Ford supports 3.5 times more jobs than buying a Hyundai. Comparing a Honda and a Hyundai? Buying a Honda supports more than 2 times more jobs." The Level Field Institute

"With all their faults, trade unions have done more for humanity than any other organization of men that ever existed" Clarence Darrow

.

As has been pointed out, Ford never received a bail out. In fact, this is not the first time GM has been bailed out.

Those on the left make it sound as if the workers at GM are more righteous than the workers at the banks. This is idiotic. Granted, the upper management may be criminals but why take that out on all the workers and why prop up that criminal management with a bail out?

 

[editec]

I'm often puzzled by those on the left. For example, those on the Occupy Wall Street side wish to destroy corporate America but favor larger governemnt.

I can see why you're puzzled given you believe things about the "left" that basically are groundless

What do they want,

Sane government to regulate that which MUST be regulated AND NOTHING more than that.

do they want to destroy them so that the government can bail them out again?

Ah, no.

Then there is GM. Everyone on the left supports bailing out GM, however, when you talk about bailing out the banks it makes their blood boil.

Why?

Because bailing out the bankSTERS further exacerbates the MORAL HAZARD that we've been dealing with repeatedly as we've bailed out these banks over and over and over again in the last 30 years.

Read a book, dude.

You're so clueless you can't even frame a question that bears any relationship to REALITY.

If you read some books about what really happened, and why?

You will be completely OUTRAGED by the Banksters and the POLS who love them, too.

You will understand the TRUE nature of that ongoing crime that the know-nothings call socialism.

What is going on is neither socialism nor cpaitalism.

It's the crime of some BANSTERS conspiring with some people in government to defraud the world by monetary manipulation.

And they just keep getting away with it because people like you are too lazy, or too stupid, or too dishonest to actually look at the facts.

Go read a book and get back to me when you have a handle on the events that lead up to the 2007-2008 meltdown.

 

[Underhill]

My blood never boils, but the answer is pretty simple. The banks were motivated by greed and dishonest deals, GM was, and is, a victim of the downturn caused by the banks, investment firms, and the rating industry. The loss of the regulatory structure has caused greed to run rampant. And while GM needs to manage it assets and its wage and retirement benefits better, GM contributes to America because a great deal is still made here. Now the question becomes why do Americans not support America by buying American? The Japanese and Koreans support their businesses through collaboration etc, but the right wing in America hates the government so much they will screw the American worker to somehow or someway get back at government, a paradoxical situation.

Have you ever even once heard a right wing newscaster praise America and its workers? Have you ever heard a right wing conservative, republican, or conservative libertarian say buy American? Have you? Why not? Buy American - support all Americans, including yourself.

Buy American = "Because Ford, GM and Chrysler conduct far more of their research, design, engineering, manufacturing and assembly work in the U.S. than foreign automakers do, buying a Ford, GM, or Chrysler supports almost three times as many jobs as buying the average foreign automobile. Some comparisons are even more striking. Buying a Ford supports 3.5 times more jobs than buying a Hyundai. Comparing a Honda and a Hyundai? Buying a Honda supports more than 2 times more jobs." The Level Field Institute

"With all their faults, trade unions have done more for humanity than any other organization of men that ever existed" Clarence Darrow

.

As has been pointed out, Ford never received a bail out. In fact, this is not the first time GM has been bailed out.

Those on the left make it sound as if the workers at GM are more righteous than the workers at the banks. This is idiotic. Granted, the upper management may be criminals but why take that out on all the workers and why prop up that criminal management with a bail out?

It has nothing to do with the workers and everything to do with what they produce.

Auto companies are one of the few remaining industries we have in this country. They create massive amounts of wealth. Banks do not create anything.

And I find it funny that conservatives fail to see the difference as it's the exact same line they draw between private industry and the government. The only real difference between government (at least as it should be) and the banks, is their motivation.

 

[Votto]

I'm often puzzled by those on the left. For example, those on the Occupy Wall Street side wish to destroy corporate America but favor larger governemnt.

I can see why you're puzzled given you believe things about the "left" that basically are groundless

What do they want,

Sane government to regulate that which MUST be regulated AND NOTHING more than that.

do they want to destroy them so that the government can bail them out again?

Ah, no.

Then there is GM. Everyone on the left supports bailing out GM, however, when you talk about bailing out the banks it makes their blood boil.

Why?

Because bailing out the bankSTERS further exacerbates the MORAL HAZARD that we've been dealing with repeatedly as we've bailed out these banks over and over and over again in the last 30 years.

Read a book, dude.

You're so clueless you can't even frame a question that bears any relationship to REALITY.

If you read some books about what really happened, and why?

You will be completely OUTRAGED by the Banksters and the POLS who love them, too.

You will understand the TRUE nature of that ongoing crime that the know-nothings call socialism.

What is going on is neither socialism nor cpaitalism.

It's the crime of some BANSTERS conspiring with some people in government to defraud the world by monetary manipulation.

And they just keep getting away with it because people like you are too lazy, or too stupid, or too dishonest to actually look at the facts.

Go read a book and get back to me when you have a handle on the events that lead up to the 2007-2008 meltdown.

Obama is corporate banker trash, however, because he is perceived by the left to be the only game in town that leans left, they stick with him.

Of course, the GOP and conservatives did the same with Bush.

Enjoy America!!

 

[Votto]

My blood never boils, but the answer is pretty simple. The banks were motivated by greed and dishonest deals, GM was, and is, a victim of the downturn caused by the banks, investment firms, and the rating industry. The loss of the regulatory structure has caused greed to run rampant. And while GM needs to manage it assets and its wage and retirement benefits better, GM contributes to America because a great deal is still made here. Now the question becomes why do Americans not support America by buying American? The Japanese and Koreans support their businesses through collaboration etc, but the right wing in America hates the government so much they will screw the American worker to somehow or someway get back at government, a paradoxical situation.

Have you ever even once heard a right wing newscaster praise America and its workers? Have you ever heard a right wing conservative, republican, or conservative libertarian say buy American? Have you? Why not? Buy American - support all Americans, including yourself.

Buy American = "Because Ford, GM and Chrysler conduct far more of their research, design, engineering, manufacturing and assembly work in the U.S. than foreign automakers do, buying a Ford, GM, or Chrysler supports almost three times as many jobs as buying the average foreign automobile. Some comparisons are even more striking. Buying a Ford supports 3.5 times more jobs than buying a Hyundai. Comparing a Honda and a Hyundai? Buying a Honda supports more than 2 times more jobs." The Level Field Institute

"With all their faults, trade unions have done more for humanity than any other organization of men that ever existed" Clarence Darrow

.

As has been pointed out, Ford never received a bail out. In fact, this is not the first time GM has been bailed out.

Those on the left make it sound as if the workers at GM are more righteous than the workers at the banks. This is idiotic. Granted, the upper management may be criminals but why take that out on all the workers and why prop up that criminal management with a bail out?

It has nothing to do with the workers and everything to do with what they produce.

Auto companies are one of the few remaining industries we have in this country. They create massive amounts of wealth. Banks do not create anything.

And I find it funny that conservatives fail to see the difference as it's the exact same line they draw between private industry and the government. The only real difference between government (at least as it should be) and the banks, is their motivation.

Banks don't create wealth? That is absurd. They feed great many workers and make profits to boot. So they don't make cars, so what? I would like to see GM try to function without the help of banks. That would be comical.