Ayn Rand on God

[Wry Catcher]

Interesting interview of Ayn Rand.

 

[emilynghiem]

Interesting interview of Ayn Rand.

YouTube - ‪Ayn Rand on Religion‬‏

Hi WC: I believe you can either prove aspects of God, such as spiritual healing, or agreement being possible among diverse approaches in the spirit of one truth.

RE:
More harm and hate is generated in the name of God than in any other human endeavor.

a. if you are going to make this observation, couldn't you equally say that more good and charity has been shared in the name of God than if no people on the planet had faith in making a difference, but left it all to somebody else?
b. personally I believe that all harm on the planet can be traced to
* unforgiveness of past conflict
* selfishness or greed instead of charity toward others
* separation or ignorance out of fear of something or someone unknown
That is the common factor, fear and selfishness, regardless if the person is religious or not

in contrast, I find that forgiveness, truth and charity, wisdom and justice with mercy
these factors open the door for good will and good faith relations to be restored
This is also independent of religion or no faith at all

But I believe what is meant by the spirit of God and Jesus
IS truth and justice, wisdom and compassion, forgiveness and correction in the
spirit of love and truth, charity to all people

whatever abuses have occurred are due to corruptions and lack of these good forces

Do you agree that selfishness, competing for greed, and unforgiveness/anger between conflicting people or groups is the common factor causing harm and hate?

Don't these things come from personal or social division or separation from competing groups, and then this division is "blamed" on race or religion or class? Isn't the expression of it, through religious or class wars, just the SYMPTOM of the problem not the cause?

[p.s. another way I could ask why not make a better distinction:
if you are going to blame God or religion for causing more harm and hate in the world,
then could you blame wars on MEN since more are fought by men?
does this mean that MEN are more evil than good the way RELIGION is more evil than good?
Or are you open to making distinctions
between what are the good things that MEN do (that outweigh the bad) as RELIGIONS do
and what causes either to be involved in abuses for bad, for war, or other harm?
do you look at the CAUSES of the abuse, or just blame RELIGION/MEN as a whole?]

 

[Flopper]

I didn't find the interview particularly interesting. Actually it was pieces of several interviews. There wasn't much new.

In addition to being an atheist, she was a lesbian and married a girl many years her junior. She was also addicted to amphetamine with violent mood swings. Her support of the House Committee on Un-american Activities witch hunts in Hollywood ostracized her from most of Hollywood. Her philosophies were dismissed by most intellectuals but became widely accepted by the Conservatives.

Clearly Fiscally Conservative Republicans embrace Rand however it seems very unlikely that the Christian Right would accept either her or her philosophies. This is just another dichotomy in the party that could lead to a split.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Interesting interview of Ayn Rand.

YouTube - ‪Ayn Rand on Religion‬‏

Why do people who do not believe in God think that anyone cares what Ayn Rand believed about Him?

 

[Wry Catcher]

Interesting interview of Ayn Rand.

YouTube - ‪Ayn Rand on Religion‬‏

Why do people who do not believe in God think that anyone cares what Ayn Rand believed about Him?

Why do people who believe in God also believe in Objectivism? At the time I posted this message (started this thread) the board had several other threads and posts on Rand's book, "Atlas Shrugged" and suggested her works would remake America.

I simply pointed out the person who was being idolized, or more accurately, the philosophy in which she believed, might be incongruent with the ideas expressed by the New Right or whatever one chooses to call the Tea Party adherents.

As to my signature line which was questioned at length above, I had in mind such diverse events as The Inquisitions, Salem Witch Trials, Ethnic Cleansings, such as the Holocaust, ideological battles within Islam, the treatment of women by both most religions, etc. etc.

 

[editec]

REASON?

Please spare me the reason nonsense.

Ayn is no more a proponent of reason than the most faith based idiot you or I know.

I get so fucking sick of the morons who pretend that their lives are directed by reason.

No, no they're not.

Their presuppositions are faith-based no less than the most fevored religious zealot's.

Hey Any, tell us the myth of the invivisble hand of the market.

Explain to us why market forces are a superior tool for directing mankind than planning.

Can you do THAT without appealing to NON-reason, really?

Of course you cannot.

Your religion, honey, is MAMMON.

Stop pretending that YOUR religion has anything whatever to do with REASON.

It doesn't.

 

[Iridescence]

There is an absolute truth to the needs we have as mere mortals to our God, be 'Him' a man, a movement, an illusion, a reason, or whatever else 'we' choose to make 'Him' be for ourselves.

There are psychological depths that are acquired in which are an amazing benefit to those of us in which choose to empower ourselves with 'Him', and then yet there are those of 'us' who choose to destroy. It seems obvious who of 'us' does what when and how we respond to one another.

 

[ciel_perdu]

Wry Catchers signature

More harm and hate is generated in the name of God than in any other human endeavor.

I disagree. I think greed is the root reason for all the harm and hate in the world. Just because dishonest people use God to justify whatever they want, does not mean God is any less real. It simply means that there are very few people who actually DO what God wants them to do.

You can't blame God for the wrongs done in his name, same as you can't blame yourself for someone going out and killing people in YOUR name.

I didn't watch the video, but a poster wrote that the woman in the videos religion was mammon. Whether it is or it isn't (as I haven't watched it), mammon i.e. money and all that it can buy, seems to me to be the main cause of hate and harm in the world to me. But, how come no one wants to attack our love for money?

 

[editec]

But, how come no one wants to attack our love for money?

Now you've done it, ciel_perdu.

The zealots of Mammon have your number now!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g"]YouTube - ‪She's a witch!‬‏[/ame]​

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Interesting interview of Ayn Rand.

YouTube - ‪Ayn Rand on Religion‬‏

Why do people who do not believe in God think that anyone cares what Ayn Rand believed about Him?

Why do people who believe in God also believe in Objectivism? At the time I posted this message (started this thread) the board had several other threads and posts on Rand's book, "Atlas Shrugged" and suggested her works would remake America.

I simply pointed out the person who was being idolized, or more accurately, the philosophy in which she believed, might be incongruent with the ideas expressed by the New Right or whatever one chooses to call the Tea Party adherents.

As to my signature line which was questioned at length above, I had in mind such diverse events as The Inquisitions, Salem Witch Trials, Ethnic Cleansings, such as the Holocaust, ideological battles within Islam, the treatment of women by both most religions, etc. etc.

What makes you think that anyone who believes in objectivism is a Christian?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Wry Catchers signature

More harm and hate is generated in the name of God than in any other human endeavor.

I disagree. I think greed is the root reason for all the harm and hate in the world. Just because dishonest people use God to justify whatever they want, does not mean God is any less real. It simply means that there are very few people who actually DO what God wants them to do.

You can't blame God for the wrongs done in his name, same as you can't blame yourself for someone going out and killing people in YOUR name.

I didn't watch the video, but a poster wrote that the woman in the videos religion was mammon. Whether it is or it isn't (as I haven't watched it), mammon i.e. money and all that it can buy, seems to me to be the main cause of hate and harm in the world to me. But, how come no one wants to attack our love for money?

Exactly.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Wry Catchers signature

More harm and hate is generated in the name of God than in any other human endeavor.

I disagree. I think greed is the root reason for all the harm and hate in the world. Just because dishonest people use God to justify whatever they want, does not mean God is any less real. It simply means that there are very few people who actually DO what God wants them to do.

You can't blame God for the wrongs done in his name, same as you can't blame yourself for someone going out and killing people in YOUR name.

I didn't watch the video, but a poster wrote that the woman in the videos religion was mammon. Whether it is or it isn't (as I haven't watched it), mammon i.e. money and all that it can buy, seems to me to be the main cause of hate and harm in the world to me. But, how come no one wants to attack our love for money?

There was no blame attached to "God" in my post, answer or signature. Intolerable acts were done by men in God's name and under the authority of religious leaders.

On point too is my signiture line comment on bankers and insurers; did you miss the obvious yet unwritten reference to greed?

 

[ciel_perdu]

There was no blame attached to "God" in my post, answer or signature. Intolerable acts were done by men in God's name and under the authority of religious leaders.

On point too is my signiture line comment on bankers and insurers; did you miss the obvious yet unwritten reference to greed?

Sorry, I did miss your other signature. Bankers and insurers certainly are not our 'friends' though they pretend they are, the facade is all about getting our money. They are motivated by greed. But, bankers and insurers aside, we all have greed in us. It might therefore be helpful to not isolate certain types of people/businesses, but deal with the problem, greed, as it afflicts everyone on the planet. After all, those bankers and insurers are can probably obtain good character references, probably show love to their kids, enjoying watching the birds, and walks in the park...so not much difference between them and the guy who serves coffee at Starbucks.

It's true men and women have done intolerable acts in the name of God. So what are you deploring, the actions themselves, or people doing these things 'in the name of God'? Do you believe in God?

If yes, I would think you'd recognize that the majority of bad things done in 'God's name', are not done out of sincerity, but more so out of greed, selfishness and pride. And so, it's not the concept of God that is to blame.

If your answer is that you don't believe in God, then are you blaming the concept of God and religion for all the woes of the world?

I'm trying to work out your position. Perhaps you can share how you came to your conclusion, and how you think greed (money), is not the 'human endeavor' that has caused more harm and hate in the world.

From what I see in the world, it is our love for money that is the chief cause for all the harm and hate that happens in the world. Greed, plain and simple, yours, mine and everyone else.

 

[editec]

Suppose I killed somebody and I did it on behalf of APPLESAUCE.

Would we then blame APPLESAUCE for what I did?

I completely understand why (and am sympathetic to) atheists fear and objections to religionists who seek to impose their will (and their POVs) on non-religionists.

There's are one hell of a LOT of religionists who would, if they could, turn this nation into an authoritarian nightmare based on their own goofy (usually primative, often hateful, sometimes totally insane!) notions about how a society ought to run.

ONE type of RELIGIONIST that I find especially troubling right now are those religionists whose object of adoration is MAMMON.

And frankly, those religionists are the people who are currently IN CHARGE of our society.

As you can plainly see, their religion isn't doing good things to this society.

What I find somewhat astounding is the sects of Christianity which have become the allies of the worshippors of MAMMON.

Basically their religion is much like 17th century PURITANISM.

They believe that God's chosen, the elect, are rewarded with wealth and power and anyone who is not wealthy and powerful deserves no consideration because, as is plain to see, GOD doesn't love them here on earth.

This perversion of theology is a fairly good example of the complete abandonment of the basic premise of Christianity as I understand it.

 

[Intense]

Suppose I killed somebody and I did it on behalf of APPLESAUCE.

Would we then blame APPLESAUCE for what I did?

I completely understand why (and am sympathetic to) atheists fear and objections to religionists who seek to impose their will (and their POVs) on non-religionists.

There's are one hell of a LOT of religionists who would, if they could, turn this nation into an authoritarian nightmare based on their own goofy (usually primative, often hateful, sometimes totally insane!) notions about how a society ought to run.

ONE type of RELIGIONIST that I find especially troubling right now are those religionists whose object of adoration is MAMMON.

And frankly, those religionists are the people who are currently IN CHARGE of our society.

As you can plainly see, their religion isn't doing good things to this society.

What I find somewhat astounding is the sects of Christianity which have become the allies of the worshippors of MAMMON.

Basically their religion is much like 17th century PURITANISM.

They believe that God's chosen, the elect, are rewarded with wealth and power and anyone who is not wealthy and powerful deserves no consideration because, as is plain to see, GOD doesn't love them here on earth.

This perversion of theology is a fairly good example of the complete abandonment of the basic premise of Christianity as I understand it.

Sort of like not being able to distinguish between the message and the messenger to ones own detriment. One needs to learn to witness with Impartiality to see the truth. We each have truth in us, we each cross the line, not having enough self control.

Rand did pretty good for an Atheist believing in Unalienable Right, Conscience, and Justice. I think Phil asked the wrong questions. Big surprise.

 

[Intense]

Like Phil, the populist, would even know his favorite flavor of Ice Cream without polling the audience first. I bet it takes him 20-30 minutes to order off of a menu in a place he eats in everyday. Lead me Phil. Tell me up from down.

 

[uscitizen]

I didn't find the interview particularly interesting. Actually it was pieces of several interviews. There wasn't much new.

In addition to being an atheist, she was a lesbian and married a girl many years her junior. She was also addicted to amphetamine with violent mood swings. Her support of the House Committee on Un-american Activities witch hunts in Hollywood ostracized her from most of Hollywood. Her philosophies were dismissed by most intellectuals but became widely accepted by the Conservatives.

Clearly Fiscally Conservative Republicans embrace Rand however it seems very unlikely that the Christian Right would accept either her or her philosophies. This is just another dichotomy in the party that could lead to a split.

and all of those points are why the republicans idolize her.

 

[Iridescence]

Suppose I killed somebody and I did it on behalf of APPLESAUCE.

Would we then blame APPLESAUCE for what I did?

I completely understand why (and am sympathetic to) atheists fear and objections to religionists who seek to impose their will (and their POVs) on non-religionists.

There's are one hell of a LOT of religionists who would, if they could, turn this nation into an authoritarian nightmare based on their own goofy (usually primative, often hateful, sometimes totally insane!) notions about how a society ought to run.

ONE type of RELIGIONIST that I find especially troubling right now are those religionists whose object of adoration is MAMMON.

And frankly, those religionists are the people who are currently IN CHARGE of our society.

As you can plainly see, their religion isn't doing good things to this society.

What I find somewhat astounding is the sects of Christianity which have become the allies of the worshippors of MAMMON.

Basically their religion is much like 17th century PURITANISM.

They believe that God's chosen, the elect, are rewarded with wealth and power and anyone who is not wealthy and powerful deserves no consideration because, as is plain to see, GOD doesn't love them here on earth.

This perversion of theology is a fairly good example of the complete abandonment of the basic premise of Christianity as I understand it.

Wow.

I don't know if I disagree with everything you post within the board, but this particular post smacks of complete ignorance toward a great many things.

I choose to keep my 'heart' as pure as possible but it is because I find it in my own best interest if I want a long life with optimum mental health. That means I shed not only my clothes at night but my daily burdens and my bitterness toward the day spent. It isn't just a book and it isn't just an illusion to many of 'us'.

Power, wealth, and 'all that jazz' is accordingly to what an individual loves most. I could not boast to be rich of anything because *I* don't have money, I am not especially educated, and though I am blessed beyond measure by the people within my life they are not my possessions.

What an individual makes of what they are given really can prove their potential. Perhaps that is why the 'God's people' are the rulers of any given land. Not because of political fronts put up by pacifier suckers who cry at every inch of injustice but because 'we' allow ourselves to be lead by the higher powers that be recognizing the importance of authority.

Perhaps what we need are a few more politicians that are higher ranking theologists than that which basic Christianity seems to offer most here. Perhaps the wrong we have done to our beloved nation is allowing PURITANICAL values to slip.

 

[editec]

Suppose I killed somebody and I did it on behalf of APPLESAUCE.

Would we then blame APPLESAUCE for what I did?

I completely understand why (and am sympathetic to) atheists fear and objections to religionists who seek to impose their will (and their POVs) on non-religionists.

There's are one hell of a LOT of religionists who would, if they could, turn this nation into an authoritarian nightmare based on their own goofy (usually primative, often hateful, sometimes totally insane!) notions about how a society ought to run.

ONE type of RELIGIONIST that I find especially troubling right now are those religionists whose object of adoration is MAMMON.

And frankly, those religionists are the people who are currently IN CHARGE of our society.

As you can plainly see, their religion isn't doing good things to this society.

What I find somewhat astounding is the sects of Christianity which have become the allies of the worshippors of MAMMON.

Basically their religion is much like 17th century PURITANISM.

They believe that God's chosen, the elect, are rewarded with wealth and power and anyone who is not wealthy and powerful deserves no consideration because, as is plain to see, GOD doesn't love them here on earth.

This perversion of theology is a fairly good example of the complete abandonment of the basic premise of Christianity as I understand it.

Wow.

I don't know if I disagree with everything you post within the board, but this particular post smacks of complete ignorance toward a great many things.

I choose to keep my 'heart' as pure as possible but it is because I find it in my own best interest if I want a long life with optimum mental health. That means I shed not only my clothes at night but my daily burdens and my bitterness toward the day spent. It isn't just a book and it isn't just an illusion to many of 'us'.

Power, wealth, and 'all that jazz' is accordingly to what an individual loves most. I could not boast to be rich of anything because *I* don't have money, I am not especially educated, and though I am blessed beyond measure by the people within my life they are not my possessions.

What an individual makes of what they are given really can prove their potential. Perhaps that is why the 'God's people' are the rulers of any given land. Not because of political fronts put up by pacifier suckers who cry at every inch of injustice but because 'we' allow ourselves to be lead by the higher powers that be recognizing the importance of authority.

Perhaps what we need are a few more politicians that are higher ranking theologists than that which basic Christianity seems to offer most here. Perhaps the wrong we have done to our beloved nation is allowing PURITANICAL values to slip.

You object to everything I posted but you don't address anything I wrote?

That's rather telling.

 

[Wry Catcher]

There was no blame attached to "God" in my post, answer or signature. Intolerable acts were done by men in God's name and under the authority of religious leaders.

On point too is my signiture line comment on bankers and insurers; did you miss the obvious yet unwritten reference to greed?

Sorry, I did miss your other signature. Bankers and insurers certainly are not our 'friends' though they pretend they are, the facade is all about getting our money. They are motivated by greed. But, bankers and insurers aside, we all have greed in us. It might therefore be helpful to not isolate certain types of people/businesses, but deal with the problem, greed, as it afflicts everyone on the planet. After all, those bankers and insurers are can probably obtain good character references, probably show love to their kids, enjoying watching the birds, and walks in the park...so not much difference between them and the guy who serves coffee at Starbucks.

It's true men and women have done intolerable acts in the name of God. So what are you deploring, the actions themselves, or people doing these things 'in the name of God'? Do you believe in God?

If yes, I would think you'd recognize that the majority of bad things done in 'God's name', are not done out of sincerity, but more so out of greed, selfishness and pride. And so, it's not the concept of God that is to blame.

If your answer is that you don't believe in God, then are you blaming the concept of God and religion for all the woes of the world?

I'm trying to work out your position. Perhaps you can share how you came to your conclusion, and how you think greed (money), is not the 'human endeavor' that has caused more harm and hate in the world.

From what I see in the world, it is our love for money that is the chief cause for all the harm and hate that happens in the world. Greed, plain and simple, yours, mine and everyone else.

I'm agnotic. I was raised Catholic and confirmed. During the 'training' for confirmation the Nun read a contract of behavior and asked the class to promise to obey. I believe I was around 12 at the time. The only part of the contract which I recall was to promise not to dance with girls, and as I recall I was the only one who failed to make the promise (affirming was a simple hand raise). I remember thinking how stupid for others to promise something they would never do.

The last time I went to confesson, was the period right before confirmation. After I 'confessed' the priest asked if I masterbated. I lied and said no. Had I been a bit older, I might have asked what my ability to bait a hook had to do with confession, or some other smart ass remark. As it was that was the last time I 'confessed' and shortly thereafter I stopped attending mass. I haven't been back in 50 years.

Along with the study of history I've concluded organized religion was simply one more example of an elite exercsing power and control over the individual. I suppose if I were inclined to or saw evidence of the existence of God I would be a deist. I also gave up believing in ghosts, holy or otherwise when the dark didn't scare me anymore.

One final comment. My behavior is not dependent on punishment or reward. I still carry the ethos of Jesus as taught by the Nuns; my perspective of him was of a good and just man. Not born of a virgin and not the son of God. What would Jesus do, kick the ass of callous conservatives (and callous liberals too).