Atheists don't believe in God or gods but they have no alternative theories that make sense...

[Blackrook]

And that something ELSE, whether it is a mind or just a mindless force, you might as well call it God.

You might as well call it anything at all, baby unicorn works, rendering the concept of god worthless and meaningless, so far.

You're not really attempting to engage my argument seriously.

 

[Blackrook]

The universe caused itself, or

The universe didn't cause itself.

What I'm stating is that the latter is more likely true.

And I am stating that you are wrong. And that, even if it were true, that would not be any good evidence for, or even a good argument for theism.

All I'm trying to prove right now is deism, not theism.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You're not really attempting to engage my argument seriously.

I dispute your first premise. That is a direct attack on your argument. I then stated that , even if true, it didn't present any evidence for theism. Why not? It still stands to be proven that it can only possibly be a god that was the impetus for the beginning of the universe. Another direct attack on your first premise.

Then i responded directly to your idea that we "might as well call it god". No, YOU might as well do that. I will call it Percy. Or cactus. And it makes no difference, as you tacitly admit. So your argument does not compel me at all.

Those are pretty direct responses.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

And my comments are just as relevant to deism.

 

[Blackrook]

You're not really attempting to engage my argument seriously.

I dispute your first premise. That is a direct attack on your argument. I then stated that , even if true, it didn't present any evidence for atheism. Why not? It still stands to be proven that it can only possibly be a god that was the impetus for the beginning of the universe. Another direct attack on your first premise.

Then i responded directly to your idea that we "might as well call it god". No, YOU might as well do that. I will call it Percy. Or cactus. And it makes no difference, as you tacitly admit. So your argument does not compel me at all.

Those are pretty direct responses.

Calling the cause of the universe something other than God doesn't change what it or he or she is: the uncaused cause, the necessary being.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You're not really attempting to engage my argument seriously.

I dispute your first premise. That is a direct attack on your argument. I then stated that , even if true, it didn't present any evidence for atheism. Why not? It still stands to be proven that it can only possibly be a god that was the impetus for the beginning of the universe. Another direct attack on your first premise.

Then i responded directly to your idea that we "might as well call it god". No, YOU might as well do that. I will call it Percy. Or cactus. And it makes no difference, as you tacitly admit. So your argument does not compel me at all.

Those are pretty direct responses.

Calling the cause of the universe something other than God doesn't change what it or he or she is: the uncaused cause, the necessary being.

False. "Being" is not necessitated. This could simply be an unknown fact about nature. Which it is.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

...as to how the universe came to exist or how humans became aware of our own existence.

And I've tried to get answers from atheists, but none are forthcoming.

They do like to mock those of us who do believe in God or gods, as if somehow mockery can make up for lack of answers.

And I do anticipate that they will simply do that in this thread, mock and ridicule.

I think The point is they admit they don’t know.
You don’t know either. Faith is not Fact.

 

[buttercup]

That was the most nonsensical post I’ve read all day. Sorry, maybe you can rephrase your point.

You say the microwave shows intelligent design. I agreed and say that, if left to nature, no microwave oven. You have to breach this gap. How do you pose the design of a microwave shows intelligent design in the universe? No, human intelligent design, then no microwave oven. It seems to show the opposite.

You correctly understand that a microwave requires an intelligent designer/creator. But you believe that the human mind (which designed that microwave) put itself together by dumb luck. Do you not see the absurdity in that?

I’m sorry, but you are spiritually blind. And really, no amount of debating is going to change that. People do not come to God through their mind or through arguments. What I’m about to say might sound crazy to you, but God opens people’s eyes on an individual basis. But as I’ve mentioned before on other threads, pride is one of the things that blocks people from God. There is much more to be said here, but I’m getting off topic, so I’ll leave it at that for now.

 

[Blackrook]

...as to how the universe came to exist or how humans became aware of our own existence.

And I've tried to get answers from atheists, but none are forthcoming.

They do like to mock those of us who do believe in God or gods, as if somehow mockery can make up for lack of answers.

And I do anticipate that they will simply do that in this thread, mock and ridicule.

I think The point is they admit they don’t know.
You don’t know either. Faith is not Fact.

I'm not relying on faith, I'm relying on logic.

Either the universe caused itself or the universe was caused by something else.

What I'm saying is that it's a lot more likely that something else caused the universe.

That something else might as well be called God, because you can't come up with a better name for it.

I'm not asking you to have faith here.

I'm just asking you to use your brain and think.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

But you believe that the human mind (which designed that microwave) put itself together by dumb luck.

No I don't. Natural selection is anything but "chance". So take that back and start over.

I’m sorry, but you are spiritually blind.

Excuse you, your brand of magical nonsense holds no providence over spiritual experience. I am deeply moved by cosmology, and art, and music, and literature, and more.

People do not come to God through their mind or through arguments.

Right, they generally go there because of some hardwiring of the human brain, coupled with the genetic accident of where and when they were born. Oh, and the brainwashing starting in childhood can't be overlooked. So, Hindu kids in India. Buddhist kids in SE Asia. Jews in Israel. Zoroastrians in Iraq.

None of it is good evidence for god. If anything, it's strong evidence that they are ALL wrong.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

...as to how the universe came to exist or how humans became aware of our own existence.

And I've tried to get answers from atheists, but none are forthcoming.

They do like to mock those of us who do believe in God or gods, as if somehow mockery can make up for lack of answers.

And I do anticipate that they will simply do that in this thread, mock and ridicule.

I think The point is they admit they don’t know.
You don’t know either. Faith is not Fact.

I'm not relying on faith, I'm relying on logic.

Either the universe caused itself or the universe was caused by something else.

What I'm saying is that it's a lot more likely that something else caused the universe.

That something else might as well be called God, because you can't come up with a better name for it.

I'm not asking you to have faith here.

I'm just asking you to use your brain and think.

Might as well be? So you don’t know. It might as well be Darth Vader and the Force. That is the point we don’t know. Even those with faith cannot agree.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I'm not relying on faith, I'm relying on logic.

Which is a mistake, when you start from shaky premises.

 

[Blackrook]

...as to how the universe came to exist or how humans became aware of our own existence.

And I've tried to get answers from atheists, but none are forthcoming.

They do like to mock those of us who do believe in God or gods, as if somehow mockery can make up for lack of answers.

And I do anticipate that they will simply do that in this thread, mock and ridicule.

I think The point is they admit they don’t know.
You don’t know either. Faith is not Fact.

I'm not relying on faith, I'm relying on logic.

Either the universe caused itself or the universe was caused by something else.

What I'm saying is that it's a lot more likely that something else caused the universe.

That something else might as well be called God, because you can't come up with a better name for it.

I'm not asking you to have faith here.

I'm just asking you to use your brain and think.

Might as well be? So you don’t know. It might as well be Darth Vader and the Force. That is the point we don’t know. Even those with faith cannot agree.

It doesn't matter what you call the entity that caused the universe, it's still the same thing. Changing the name doesn't change the nature of what it is, the cause of the universe that is itself uncaused.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

It doesn't matter what you call the entity that caused the universe, it's still the same thing.

Yes, a big "I don't know".

Now, I ask you: what preceded this 'thing' of which you speak?

 

[buttercup]

But you believe that the human mind (which designed that microwave) put itself together by dumb luck.

No I don't. Natural selection is anything but "chance". So take that back and start over.

I’m sorry, but you are spiritually blind.

Excuse you, your brand of magical nonsense holds no providence over spiritual experience. I am deeply moved by cosmology, and art, and music, and literature, and more.

People do not come to God through their mind or through arguments.

Right, they generally go there because of some hardwiring of the human brain, coupled with the genetic accident of where and when they were born. Oh, and the brainwashing starting in childhood can't be overlooked. So, Hindu kids in India. Buddhist kids in SE Asia. Jews in Israel. Zoroastrians in Iraq.

None of it is good evidnece for god. If anything, it's strong evidence that they are ALL wrong.

I knew you were going to say something about natural selection or evolution. But here’s what you don’t want to admit – if there’s no intelligence behind that evolution, then everything you see, everything in existence: life, creation, the laws of the universe, the order, the beauty, the complexity, everything, ultimately is a result of chance. Dumb luck. That really is what it boils down to. I’m not talking about HOW it happened. I’m talking about the fact that it happened at all. I hope you can be intellectually honest enough to concede that.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

...as to how the universe came to exist or how humans became aware of our own existence.

And I've tried to get answers from atheists, but none are forthcoming.

They do like to mock those of us who do believe in God or gods, as if somehow mockery can make up for lack of answers.

And I do anticipate that they will simply do that in this thread, mock and ridicule.

I think The point is they admit they don’t know.
You don’t know either. Faith is not Fact.

I'm not relying on faith, I'm relying on logic.

Either the universe caused itself or the universe was caused by something else.

What I'm saying is that it's a lot more likely that something else caused the universe.

That something else might as well be called God, because you can't come up with a better name for it.

I'm not asking you to have faith here.

I'm just asking you to use your brain and think.

Might as well be? So you don’t know. It might as well be Darth Vader and the Force. That is the point we don’t know. Even those with faith cannot agree.

It doesn't matter what you call the entity that caused the universe, it's still the same thing. Changing the name doesn't change the nature of what it is, the cause of the universe that is itself uncaused.

Of course it matters. How can you say it does not?

 

[Blackrook]

I'm not relying on faith, I'm relying on logic.

Which is a mistake, when you start from shaky premises.

What is my shaky premise? If you're going to say I have a shaky premise, then please explain yourself.

 

[Blackrook]

...as to how the universe came to exist or how humans became aware of our own existence.

And I've tried to get answers from atheists, but none are forthcoming.

They do like to mock those of us who do believe in God or gods, as if somehow mockery can make up for lack of answers.

And I do anticipate that they will simply do that in this thread, mock and ridicule.

I think The point is they admit they don’t know.
You don’t know either. Faith is not Fact.

I'm not relying on faith, I'm relying on logic.

Either the universe caused itself or the universe was caused by something else.

What I'm saying is that it's a lot more likely that something else caused the universe.

That something else might as well be called God, because you can't come up with a better name for it.

I'm not asking you to have faith here.

I'm just asking you to use your brain and think.

Might as well be? So you don’t know. It might as well be Darth Vader and the Force. That is the point we don’t know. Even those with faith cannot agree.

It doesn't matter what you call the entity that caused the universe, it's still the same thing. Changing the name doesn't change the nature of what it is, the cause of the universe that is itself uncaused.

Of course it matters. How can you say it does not?

OK, if you want to call the uncaused cause of the universe "Darth Vader" you can do that. But you're not changing anything by calling it that.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

But here’s what you don’t want to admit – if there’s no intelligence behind that evolution, then everything you see, everything in existence: life, creation, the laws of the universe, the order, the beauty, the complexity, everything, ultimately is a result of chance. Dumb luck.

Not so, the laws of physics are quite well defined and not random in the least. Are you suggesting those are randomly chosen, too? Maybe they are.

So? You only care that the idea that your consciousness and introspective self awareness you find so special couldn't just "arise" in a physical system in some supreme being designed it so. That is your intuition. Good for you. But nature has absolutely no obligation to appeal to your intuitions or sensibilities. I reject your idea as not knowledge, but gut feeling.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

I think The point is they admit they don’t know.
You don’t know either. Faith is not Fact.

I'm not relying on faith, I'm relying on logic.

Either the universe caused itself or the universe was caused by something else.

What I'm saying is that it's a lot more likely that something else caused the universe.

That something else might as well be called God, because you can't come up with a better name for it.

I'm not asking you to have faith here.

I'm just asking you to use your brain and think.

Might as well be? So you don’t know. It might as well be Darth Vader and the Force. That is the point we don’t know. Even those with faith cannot agree.

It doesn't matter what you call the entity that caused the universe, it's still the same thing. Changing the name doesn't change the nature of what it is, the cause of the universe that is itself uncaused.

Of course it matters. How can you say it does not?

OK, if you want to call the uncaused cause of the universe "Darth Vader" you can do that. But you're not changing anything by calling it that.

Yes you are. You’re saying you don’t know and there is no proof of Adam and Eve or Mohammed, etc.