Atheist soldier says Army punished him

[LuvRPgrl]

What would you prefer: A Christian nation or a fair and balanced nation?

Both. The Declaration of Independence states plainly that our FREEDOMS are given us by God. If you take freedom out of the equation, then what is wrong with "might makes right" and those with the power can impose their will on you and take away your rights?

If they are given by God, no man certainly has the right to take away our rights, not does any govt.

 

[Diuretic]

For that claim to work you'll have to prove the existence of God.

Personally I'm okay with the idea that being a human being is sufficient, that mere existence means that each of us has human rights.

Your argument, I think, is weakened in its appeal to God by the fact that governments indeed take away our human rights in certain circumstances. For example, after due process a convicted murderer can be executed. That's probably the most extreme example of the loss of a human right. Legislatures can do that without permission from God, they simply legislate for it.

 

[Shogun]

Federally we are not a Christian nation" is irrelevant.



But factually, we are a Christian nation.





poor pharisee christians.. sad little meepers forgetting that their christianity was never meant to be imposed onto ceasar.. It just makes my cockles ACHE to know that you can't negate the necessity of free will by manipulating society. myawwww... it's just like a roman LION, lemme tellya! The PAIN! the ANGUISH!

 

[BrianH]

Now I should know better to get biasly involved in this, so I won't.

The existence of God can be depated for hundreds of years, obviously. The fact is, this nation was found on Christian values anyway way you look at it. You pick up any U.S. currency and what will you find on it? "In God We Trust."
What does the pledge state? "One Nation Under God."

Now if you really want to analyze words, you could say that the nation was founded under monotheistic values, considering that the belief in God is not soley characteristic of the Christian faith. Judaism and Islam are both religions of monotheism.

However, the fact that the majority our nation's original founders were Christian shows that their religion was Christianity. Which means that they based our nation's foundations on Christianity.

This argument should go beyond the bias of those who do not believe in God/Christianity and those that do. If this was a court, there would be more evidence suggesting that this nation was founded on Christian values.

Sure their are myths, but when it comes down to it, it's true. You can't deny/ignore historical facts based on personal biased.

 

[trobinett]

BrianH posted:

Sure their are myths, but when it comes down to it, it's true. You can't deny/ignore historical facts based on personal biased.

Are you for real?

People deny/ignore historical facts EVERY fucking day, where the fuck have YOU been living?

Grow up, listen up, join up, and then, start paying attention, life will make a whole lot more sense.

 

[Shogun]

Now I should know better to get biasly involved in this, so I won't.

The existence of God can be depated for hundreds of years, obviously. The fact is, this nation was found on Christian values anyway way you look at it. You pick up any U.S. currency and what will you find on it? "In God We Trust."
What does the pledge state? "One Nation Under God."

Now if you really want to analyze words, you could say that the nation was founded under monotheistic values, considering that the belief in God is not soley characteristic of the Christian faith. Judaism and Islam are both religions of monotheism.

However, the fact that the majority our nation's original founders were Christian shows that their religion was Christianity. Which means that they based our nation's foundations on Christianity.

This argument should go beyond the bias of those who do not believe in God/Christianity and those that do. If this was a court, there would be more evidence suggesting that this nation was founded on Christian values.

Sure their are myths, but when it comes down to it, it's true. You can't deny/ignore historical facts based on personal biased.

yea, you know... who cares what a deist was during the post-enlightenment when we can just slap a fucking Baptist label on Jefferson and act like his supernatural beliefs were anything even remotely close to the current joke of faith.

indeed.

"christian" values? rather, the english Common Law which was the direct influence on colonial society. Can we extrapolate that back to hamurabi or are we just assuming that the jebus cult is the only group of humans to have ever comprehended law?


http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/north&southwalls.pdf

O Hai, MOHAMMED AND HAMMURABI... what the fuck are YOU doing on supreme court culputre in this christian nation1?!?


I can haz logick?

 

[BrianH]

BrianH posted:



Are you for real?

People deny/ignore historical facts EVERY fucking day, where the fuck have YOU been living?

Grow up, listen up, join up, and then, start paying attention, life will make a whole lot more sense.

Sure people do deny facts, does that mean they make any sense? Sounds like your post.

Shogun, you know I respect you...........but.

"christian" values? rather, the english Common Law which was the direct influence on colonial society.
regardless of what it was that caused it, it's still there.

 

[Shogun]

so...

do you wanna extrapolate that all the way back to a pagan god giving hammurabi laws or shall we just ignore which came first?

 

[BrianH]

ha ha...no I don't want to argue which came first. Regardless of who's right and who's wrong in regards to christianity, would you agree that our government was established on the premise of a monothestic religion(s)? Since the majority of the nation was christian at the time (regardless if it was forced by English common law or not), it still played a major factor.

Agreed, you don't see, "Christ Almighty" on your currency or pledge...but you do see God. Maybe I should have been more clear... Monotheism and it's teachings have played a large role in the formation of our society. Every civilization has based their culture and society on their beliefs...Mayans, Aztecs, Minoans, Egyptians, Spartans, Romans,Byzantines, Spanish, All of Latin America, the Middle East, most of Europe...all of it was established based on religious and ideological beleifs. America is no different.

 

[Shogun]

I guess I would still have to disagree with you on what this nation was founded on. It wasn't created for the sake of christianity. It wasnt created for the creation of a christian identity. It was created for the sake of an American identity. for the sake of liberty. by the authority of the constitution. not the bible. Monotheistic religion? come on, dude. These were men that chummed around with the likes of voltaire.

 

[BrianH]

Ok... well I'll agree to disagree...cause we both know this discussion will lead to nowhere. We'll talk around in circles for days...there's more posts I'd like to read.

 

[Shogun]

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

disagree with this. notice, no mention of a god. NO mention of the bible being the origin of the authority to create a constitution.

There is a reason pagan rulers are on the suprememe court building. It's not because christianity is the root of all that is lawful. By extension, not all lawful nations owe a damn thing to christiany OR monotheistic religions. If so, then we'd have to give Hammarabi's god equal consideration as jebus... But thats not on the christian agenda, is it?


For real, this is just like dogma junkies building a "creation museum" as if it means anything to the rest of science. thumpers can claim this and that all day long but, at the end of the day, there is still historic fact to consider.

 

[BrianH]

The constitution is a document dictating the way the country is governed....not what is is founded upon. It's a rule book for the country, it's not a history.

Here's the preamble to the Declaration of Independence---first sentence has God in it. Second sentence has "creator" in it.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Declaration of Independence was a testement to the reasons the country was declaring independence...not the constitution.

Considering that this nation is a nation of federated states...
http://www.usconstitution.net/states_god.html

 

[BrianH]

http://www.undergodprocon.org/pop/statereligions.htm

here's some more I-N-F-O-R-M-A-T-I-O-N for you... Considiering the thirteen colonies were a major part of establishing this nation...let's see what they had to say about religion. Sure, they eventually removed state-supported religion between 1850-1877, but that doesn't mean they didn't start with it---which is what this is all about isn't it. Now where did our founding fathers come from? Was it some places other than the thirteen colonies?

 

[BrianH]

Thomas Jefferson

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

Benjamin Franklin

"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

"God grant that not only the love of liberty but a thorough knowledge of the rights of man may pervade all the nations of the earth, so that a philosopher may set his foot anywhere on its surface and say: This is my country. "

"This will be the best security for maintaining our liberties. A nation of well-informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins. "

"Freedom is not a gift bestowed upon us by other men, but a right that belongs to us by the laws of God and nature."

Alexander Hamilton

"I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

Shall I find more... ??? I can't seem to agree with anything you say.

 

[Shogun]

The constitution is a document dictating the way the country is governed....not what is is founded upon. It's a rule book for the country, it's not a history.

Here's the preamble to the Declaration of Independence---first sentence has God in it. Second sentence has "creator" in it.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Declaration of Independence was a testement to the reasons the country was declaring independence...not the constitution.

Considering that this nation is a nation of federated states...
http://www.usconstitution.net/states_god.html

uh, the Constitution is WHAT? I think you should reconsider just what it is that defines this nation. It's not the Declaration of Independance. It's the Constitution.


Further, how else would our FFs have responded to a theocratic monarchy which was the direct model being considered when implementing a separation of church and state? Do you think that it would have been as convincing to a british monarch, where a state church had been the rule, to declare that the people of the colonies were declaring their independence?


So, what what else does the declaration of independance influence in our host of federal laws? nothing? indeed, why not ignore the role that the Constitution plays since we are in the mood to forget that there is a significant reason hammaurabi and mohammed are on the walls of our supremem court?

 

[Taomon]

Federally we are not a Christian nation" is irrelevant. At the state level, Christianity was recognized as the official State religions of many of the States, hence our country was basically a Christian nation. It certainly wasnt secular, when the States had OFFICAL STATE SANCTIONED RELIGIONS, it certainly wasnt Jewish, Muslim, Buddist, or any other religion. SO, where does that leave us?

The US Constitution states that no person can be withheld from office based on their religion or lack thereof. Nationally, we are not a Christian nation and that is what the argument is about. The fact that you want to declare that many states recognize Christianity makes a Christian nation is simply absurd.

No religion can be forced an any individual in any state, period. There are no laws that require that an individual must be a Christian, period.

Besides, states do not worship...people do. Even if the majority of American citizens were Christian (and they are not), that would not make us a Christian nation. It would make us a nation of a Christian majority...and there is a difference.

What would have to have been done to prove we are a Christian nation? I dont think any such thing exists in the minds of those who wish to rewrite history and try to eliminate religion and Christianity in particular from our society, culture and laws.

No one wants eliminate Christianity from our history. We only want to present the truth in our history. The truth is that even though America's citizenry was mostly Protestant when it was codified, our founding fathers fought to maintain a separation between church (personal) and state (public). Read the Declaration of Independence. There is mention of Nature's God, which is separate from any Judeo-Christian notions of God.

Our founding fathers were Unitarians. They were men of reason who saw the tyranny of the Catholic church and understood that any organized religion can become a tyranny (as we have seen the Evangelical Churches have horns). Thomas Jefferson referred to the Bible as dung, written by unlettered men of minimal intelligence.

But factually, we are a Christian nation.

No, we are not...and just saying it does not make it true.

Our freedoms are based on religion, as stated in the DOI.
Our laws are based in Christianity, as you would undoubtly know that laws such as bankruptcy laws are based on OT laws, "seven years"??

No, they are not based on religion...they are based on reason and ethics. The laws of the old testament can be found in the tenets of all major religions. Why? Because they are common sense mostly. Just because a rule or a cod of ethics was written in the Bible and a similar law is written into the Constitution does not mean that the law is based on the Bible.

Before the Bible, existed the Vedas...which have many of the same laws that are in the Bible. The Koran has many of the same laws. Buddhism has many of the same laws, and so on.

Our culture is based on Christianity, the President is sworn in on a Christian Bible. The ten comandments is in the building housing the supreme court. References, statues, names of places and buildings are ripe with Christianity.

http://www.america.gov/st/washfile-english/2007/None/20070104165847mlenuhret0.8249933.html

"Because America has been predominantly Christian, it became customary, but not mandatory, for U.S. presidents and other public officers to carry or place their hand on the Bible while taking the oath of office. Fiercely secular, John Quincy Adams took his oath on a book of laws containing the U.S. Constitution. Theodore Roosevelt used no book at all. Franklin Pierce and Herbert Hoover, a Quaker, did not swear but affirmed the oath of office. Jewish office-holders have brought Hebrew texts, while others acknowledge the Bible’s Old Testament as part of Jewish scripture and settle for that. President John F. Kennedy, a Catholic, placed his hand on the Catholic Douay Version of the Bible."

There is a difference between custom and mandatory actions.

Our society was and still is, based on Christianity, the numbers who attend Church regularly or occasionally, or state a belief in Christianity, are overwhelming.

Actually, the numbers are not overwhelmingly Christian. Those numbers have been declining: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/e...les/2008/02/29/faith_and_tolerance/?page=full

Show me the stats and I will refute with a pew poll: http://religions.pewforum.org/

The sabbath is recognized by the Muslims as being on Friday, the Jews on Saturday, and ONLY THE CHRISTIANS recognize it on Sunday. Our stores (until recently), our govt institutions and many others aspects of our society are shut down on Sundays, that is no accident.

No, that was a hostile take-over by Christian leaders orchestrated by the "Red Scare" after WWI. Our nation is not Christian, even though religious leaders want you to believe that it is. That is a control measure and you seem to be falling for it, hook line & sinker.

You can come up with as many references lacking, or stating against our country as being Christian, but you have to IGNORE too much of our history and current society, to believe we are not a Christian nation.

No, it is you who has been ignoring our history and the European histories of our founding fathers.

But answer the question I previously posed: Do you prefer a Christian nation or a nation based on reason and ethics?

 

[BrianH]

We're not talking about what defines this nation num nuts, we're talking about whether or not religion played a role...and anyway you look at it, it does. Just admit that you're wrong. In the Constitution you see Amendments...they dictate how the Federal Government is run, and what kinds of rights the federal, state, and local governments have...along with the civil liberties and rights. That's beside the point though. The last time I checked, I didn't see a 10 page history inside the Contitution that gave reasons why the Constitution is the way it is?

This was about whether religion played a role...and it did. You can dismiss all of those quotes and evidence if you like. But the fact remains the same.

Nobodies debating what you say about Hammaurabi and Mohammed, but the argument is about whether or not religion has played a role in the formation of the United States.

Last I checked, Mohammed was a prophet in a Monotheistic religion. You can't deny that.
And also the last I checked, there is more evidence to suggest that religion played a role. Every U.S. coin an currency you have says "IN GOD WE TRUST" on it.

Oh, and did you take the time to look at the sites I posted for you.
I really don't feel the need to continue this debate, but if you'd like, I'll keep stacking up the evidence against you.

OPINIONS ONLY GO SO FAR...

 

[Taomon]

The constitution is a document dictating the way the country is governed....not what is is founded upon. It's a rule book for the country, it's not a history.

Here's the preamble to the Declaration of Independence---first sentence has God in it. Second sentence has "creator" in it.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Declaration of Independence was a testement to the reasons the country was declaring independence...not the constitution.

Considering that this nation is a nation of federated states...
http://www.usconstitution.net/states_god.html

And Thomas Jefferson was referring to Nature's God and NOT the Judeo-Christian God that you believe rules your life. Do you understand the difference? Try reading Blasphemy by Alan Dershowitz.

This proves that our nation was founded by men who favored reason and spirituality over Christian centric dogma.

 

[Taomon]

We're not talking about what defines this nation num nuts, we're talking about whether or not religion played a role...and anyway you look at it, it does.

Then why does the Constitution declare that all offices cannot require a religious test? Why can't Congress favor one religion over the other?

Because organized religion always become tyranny over the minds of men...and that would nullify any freedom that the Constitution, the Preamble, and the DOI would have created.