Atheist Manifesto

[Matrixx8]

You're not. He's a neocon. 'Nuff said?:gross2:

LOL! I doubt that being a neocon changes anything about a person, except their political beliefs. But thanks for the encouragement.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

That's quote a loaded question, RA, but I'll tell you what I think. The only answer I know is the one that evolutionary science explains. Moral codes are survial tools. Eating healthy food is "right"; eating poisionous food is "wrong". Tit for tat is a common human emotion. Treat people with respect and they will treat you with respect. The evolutionary version of the Golden Rule! Killing people is the antithesis of survival ethics. The earliest hunter-gatherer societies understood that and developed codes to punish those who murdered, raped, stole or broke the tribal rules. Without such codes, they would not have survived and you or I would not be here to write about it.

Your "aberrant sexual orientation" is a value judgment about a human activity that reflects a personal choice and has little or no effect on other people. Such behaviour, whether one tolerates, approves or disapproves of it, does not harm other human beings, if the activity is voluntary. There are even evolutionary explanations about the role of homosexuals as extended family, much like explanations about the role of religion as a psychological tool for dealing with catastrophes and traumas.

As to whether or not I'm closed minded, you'll have to judge for yourself. I've taken the time to answer your question, even though it expresses an attitude that I personally find unenlightened.

On the other hand, I could be wrong.

Good stuff. And I mostly agree, except for pedophiles who's behavior is unfair to innocent children. These are gods rules too.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I though God has no image. He/she is what she/he is?? I see both the OT and NT and the Koran etc as nothing more than allegorical (in most cases)....

Not image literally, but created with capacities to appreciate and amplify his love.

 

[jillian]

Not image literally, but created with capacities to appreciate and amplify his love.

There are those who believe we're actually in the image of the Hebrew letters for His name when they are written vertically.

 

[jillian]

It's like knowing the bus schedule, but not knowing who will be on board each segment of the route.

That's actually an interesting analogy, because it sort of fits with what I believe, which is He isn't a micro-manager (so all this stuff about thanking Him for one's Oscar or Emmy or Superbowl win is kinda funny) but sort of lays out a grand plan.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

That's actually an interesting analogy, because it sort of fits with what I believe, which is He isn't a micro-manager (so all this stuff about thanking Him for one's Oscar or Emmy or Superbowl win is kinda funny) but sort of lays out a grand plan.

Yeah. He's kind of like the trusting dad, who will give you enough room to screw up, but who will also cheer you on when you're down, and point you the way.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

There are those who believe we're actually in the image of the Hebrew letters for His name when they are written vertically.

That's trippy!

 

[jillian]

That's trippy!

The first time I saw it, I thought it was pretty cool, actually. Wish I was adept enough to find it for you.

 

[jillian]

Yeah. He's kind of like the trusting dad, who will give you enough room to screw up, but who will also cheer you on when you're down, and point you the way.

I kind of like that concept. But I think He's got more levels than we can imagine. Kind of like trying to picture the color red if one has never had sight.

 

[Abbey Normal]

That's actually an interesting analogy, because it sort of fits with what I believe, which is He isn't a micro-manager (so all this stuff about thanking Him for one's Oscar or Emmy or Superbowl win is kinda funny) but sort of lays out a grand plan.

I agree. When people do that, I often wonder if they thought it through, because it would sort of mean that God doesn't like the other team very much, wouldn't it? But it is nice to see people give some of the glory to God for their situation, instead of taking it all for themselves. It's as subtle difference, I'll admit.

 

[Matrixx8]

Good stuff. And I mostly agree, except for pedophiles who's behavior is unfair to innocent children. These are gods rules too.

Thanks, RA. I agree with you about pedophilia. But I don't think it's as much a moral issue as it is a bio-chemical malfunction. I would put it in the same category as kleptomania or other compulsions, for example, except that the consequences of pedilfilia are much more dangerous.

I'm not sure whether this problem is still being treated by punishment or by treatment. The latter seems more to the point. Sex offenders should probably not be allowed on the streets until such time as proper drugs exist to temper and control their sexual urges. Ideally, they should be the subject of large-scale studies to determine what exactly causes such behavior. If anyone is going to be a repeated offender, it will be a person who is driven by deviant bio-chemistry and hormones to the point that they can't control their own actions.

I would put rape of any kind in the same category. Even though I don't believe that such acts have much to do with "personal responsibility", society cannot afford to tolerate them.

 

[jillian]

I agree. When people do that, I often wonder if they thought it through, because it would sort of mean that God doesn't like the other team very much, wouldn't it? But it is nice to see people give some of the glory to God for their situation, instead of taking it all for themselves. It's as subtle difference, I'll admit.

Exactly.

 

[5stringJeff]

How do you put that together with the concept that everything is planned and can't be changed?

I think I know what you're getting at... everything isn't planned out per se, but God, being omniscient, knows everything that will happen. However, this isn't a contradiction, because God isn't the immediate cause of every choice that is made or every event that occurs.

 

[5stringJeff]

hhmmmm...intersting insight. Wouldn't it have been better for an omnipotent being just to get those to do what he wants without free will. I know you will probably answer, "well, then he/she wouldn't be god if that were the case". I'm still trying to figure out why the big "get" is to love and believe in him/her unconditionally. Can't get my head around it.

According to the Bible, God is love (see 1 John 4:10). It's not that God has the attribute of love, like He has the attribute of omnipotence or omnibenevolence; He is love, in His very being. That's why God acts in love towards His creation - it would be impossible for Him to act contrarily. It would be like telling God to quit being eternal or quit being infinite.

 

[5stringJeff]

Indeed. Nor does it preclude the existence of fairies at the bottom of the garden.

But no one says that fairies in the bottom of the garden and the existence of evil are mutually exclusive.

 

[jillian]

I think I know what you're getting at... everything isn't planned out per se, but God, being omniscient, knows everything that will happen. However, this isn't a contradiction, because God isn't the immediate cause of every choice that is made or every event that occurs.

Fair enough explanation. Thanks.

 

[Matrixx8]

According to the Bible, God is love (see 1 John 4:10). It's not that God has the attribute of love, like He has the attribute of omnipotence or omnibenevolence; He is love, in His very being. That's why God acts in love towards His creation - it would be impossible for Him to act contrarily. It would be like telling God to quit being eternal or quit being infinite.

<br>According to the Bible, Exodus 21:7, you may sell your daughter into slavery.
<br>According to the Bible, Lev. 25:44, you may own slaves.
<br>According to the Bible, Exodus 35:2, people who work on Sundays should be put to death.
<br>According to the Bible, Lev.24:10-16, the punishment for blaspheme is stoning.
<br>According to the Bible, Lev. 20:14, the punishment for sleeping with in-laws is burning to death.
<p>
What criteria do you use, I wonder, to decide which Biblical pronouncements you will follow and which you will not?

 

[Matrixx8]

I think I know what you're getting at... everything isn't planned out per se, but God, being omniscient, knows everything that will happen. However, this isn't a contradiction, because God isn't the immediate cause of every choice that is made or every event that occurs.

This is an interesting point, one that Harris deals with in his essay. How would you respond to this statement?

Of course, people of faith regularly assure one another that God is not responsible for human suffering. But how else can we understand the claim that God is both omniscient and omnipotent? There is no other way, and it is time for sane human beings to own up to this. This is the age-old problem of theodicy, of course, and we should consider it solved. If God exists, either he can do nothing to stop the most egregious calamities or he does not care to. God, therefore, is either impotent or evil. Pious readers will now execute the following pirouette: God cannot be judged by merely human standards of morality. But, of course, human standards of morality are precisely what the faithful use to establish God’s goodness in the first place. And any God who could concern himself with something as trivial as gay marriage, or the name by which he is addressed in prayer, is not as inscrutable as all that. If he exists, the God of Abraham is not merely unworthy of the immensity of creation; he is unworthy even of man.

 

[Avatar4321]

But being God fearing, does it ever make you wonder why evil exists? Why a God allows it?

Its obvious why evil exists. So that we can recognize the good. Without evil we would have no knowledge of good. Without knowledge of vice we could not understand virtue.

That is why the Lord has given us moral agency so we can choose good or evil. Happiness or misery. He lets us exercise our moral agency because He knows the end from the beginning and knows what we will be taught and how we can grow.

 

[Avatar4321]

<br>According to the Bible, Exodus 21:7, you may sell your daughter into slavery.
<br>According to the Bible, Lev. 25:44, you may own slaves.
<br>According to the Bible, Exodus 35:2, people who work on Sundays should be put to death.
<br>According to the Bible, Lev.24:10-16, the punishment for blaspheme is stoning.
<br>According to the Bible, Lev. 20:14, the punishment for sleeping with in-laws is burning to death.
<p>
What criteria do you use, I wonder, to decide which Biblical pronouncements you will follow and which you will not?

If you are going to cite the Bible atleast dont do so in ignorance. Have you ever bothered reading it? Have you even bothered reading those verses because I can guarentee without even looking at it that Exodus 35:2 doesnt mention Sundays at all.