Atheism's Wrong Turn II

[midcan5]

This is worth sharing

The New Republic

Atheism's Wrong Turn by Damon Linker

"Today's bellicose atheists are part of the second tradition. And it is not surprising that they have found a sizeable audience for their contemporary repackaging of centuries-old ideas. To liberals frightened by the faith-based conservatism of George Bush or the theistic fanaticism of Osama bin Laden--or both--the feisty language of Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, and Hitchens sounds refreshing, apt, and bold. But the intellectual lineage to which these authors belong should in fact give liberals pause. Among other problems, it isn't a liberal tradition at all."

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=5348120e-dea8-4733-8e56-a055d46299d0

 

[Shogun]

"the cult of reason"

that's just, uh, beautiful.


A handful of atheists hardly equals generations of fundy christians. If it chafes not to burn us at the stake these days such is the price of keeping this nation from turning into another round of Salem. Atheism and Liberalism is not mutually exclusive any more than is theism and conservatism. Making such assumptions speaks volumes.

 

[Diuretic]

An elegantly written article, it's refreshing to read an article written by someone who can not only think clearly but can also express those thoughts in clear prose.

As for the content. I'm not a believer but the more bellicose atheists tend to get up my nose. I find it difficult to understand the motivation of someone who doesn't believe in trying to force that view, even to the point of forced conversion, on others. Live and let believe works for me, I just don't want to be affected by someone else's religious beliefs, that's all I ask.

 

[cranston36]

Atheism is the religion of the do-nothing.

 

[Diuretic]

It's not a religion.

 

[cranston36]

atheism
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.


religion :
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

- that contains 'esp.' but not 'specifically' as any moral agent will state. In order to be an atheist requires a morality that leads to one functioning set of laws that the individual accedes as true or follows in spite of all else - that last part covers atheist criminals and sociopaths, but the way

6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

+++

If you want to argue the point which is 'Atheism's Wrong Turn' then argue from that point. Denying the existence of atheism in a discussion about its paths in recent history is not a position - it is just argumentative and misleading.

...besides, I know it is but what am I?

 

[Diuretic]

Well that's the end of that then

 

[midcan5]

The change the name game. Let's call ourselves Brights. "Think about your own worldview to decide if it is free of supernatural or mystical deities, forces, and entities. If you decide that you fit the description above, then you are, by definition, a bright!"

http://www.the-brights.net/

Funny but it hasn't caught on much.


"Words are all we have." Samuel Beckett

 

[jillian]

Well that's the end of that then

Don't you love it when you can have such an in depth conversation about serious topics?

 

[Gunny]

The change the name game. Let's call ourselves Brights. "Think about your own worldview to decide if it is free of supernatural or mystical deities, forces, and entities. If you decide that you fit the description above, then you are, by definition, a bright!"

http://www.the-brights.net/

Funny but it hasn't caught on much.


"Words are all we have." Samuel Beckett

Nothign bright about absolute denial of of something that easily could exist. What should call yourselves are "Supreme Arrogants" since you believe Man is supreme. Or you could call yourselves "Superior Jackasses" since you seem to think you are intellectually superior to others; when, in fact, I haven't seen any evidence to support the claim.

 

[jillian]

Nothign bright about absolute denial of of something that easily could exist. What should call yourselves are "Supreme Arrogants" since you believe Man is supreme. Or you could call yourselves "Superior Jackasses" since you seem to think you are intellectually superior to others; when, in fact, I haven't seen any evidence to support the claim.

Arrogant? No moreso than people who say with certainty there IS a deity. Certainly far less arrogant than anyone who tells me that I'm going to hell because I don't believe in their particular deity of choice.

 

[Gunny]

Arrogant? No moreso than people who say with certainty there IS a deity. Certainly far less arrogant than anyone who tells me that I'm going to hell because I don't believe in their particular deity of choice.

No is saying in this thread there is with certainty a deity.

I disagree that it is far less arrogant than someone telling you that you are goiing to Hell for not believing in the deity of their choice. I see NO difference at all between one and the other.

 

[jillian]

No is saying in this thread there is with certainty a deity.

I disagree that it is far less arrogant than someone telling you that you are goiing to Hell for not believing in the deity of their choice. I see NO difference at all between one and the other.

Really? Is anyone telling you that something terrible is going to happen to you if you believe in a Diety? I don't see most atheists trying to foist their non-belief on others, though they will tell you that they think belief in G-d doesn't make sense to them. I think there's a huge difference. Moreover, I've never been made to feel uncomfortable about my own beliefs by an atheist. That isn't the case with the "my G-d is better than your G-d" crowd.... just my own life experience.

 

[Gunny]

Really? Is anyone telling you that something terrible is going to happen to you if you believe in a Diety? I don't see most atheists trying to foist their non-belief on others, though they will tell you that they think belief in G-d doesn't make sense to them. I think there's a huge difference. Moreover, I've never been made to feel uncomfortable about my own beliefs by an atheist. That isn't the case with the "my G-d is better than your G-d" crowd.... just my own life experience.

Right here in this thread is an atheist claiming intelletual superiority with his condescending remarks.

Why is there a difference? If you don't believe in atheism then he's full of crap. If you don't believe in the religion of the person condemning you, then he's full of crap.

One has the same impact as the other. What is the threat of Hell to someone who doesn't believe they are going their in accordance with someone else's religion?

I don't see any difference between that and being spoken down to or treated like a pariah for my beliefs because of someone else's beliefs. It all boils down to words and whether or not you choose to take offense to them.

I jst don't see the difference in the words that you seem to.

 

[Diuretic]

Nothign bright about absolute denial of of something that easily could exist. What should call yourselves are "Supreme Arrogants" since you believe Man is supreme. Or you could call yourselves "Superior Jackasses" since you seem to think you are intellectually superior to others; when, in fact, I haven't seen any evidence to support the claim.

Man is supreme, so what?

 

[Diuretic]

Right here in this thread is an atheist claiming intelletual superiority with his condescending remarks.

.........

Be fair, point out who it is so they can defend.

 

[jillian]

Right here in this thread is an atheist claiming intelletual superiority with his condescending remarks.

Which remarks are you referrring to?

Why is there a difference? If you don't believe in atheism then he's full of crap. If you don't believe in the religion of the person condemning you, then he's full of crap.

Atheism isn't a belief. It's a lack of belief. And perhaps I wasn't making my point clearly.

One has the same impact as the other. What is the threat of Hell to someone who doesn't believe they are going their in accordance with someone else's religion?

Well, perhaps you've never had that said to you. I can tell you from my perspective, it is incredibly offensive and arrogant. Atheists may think they have it right in terms of an intellectual analysis of the likelihood of the existence of G-d, but they aren't smug enough to tell me I'm going to burn for eternity in some fiery furnace because I don't share their lack of belief.

I don't see any difference between that and being spoken down to or treated like a pariah for my beliefs because of someone else's beliefs. It all boils down to words and whether or not you choose to take offense to them.

Again, atheists, jews... we don't proselytize. So no one is preaching those things.

I jst don't see the difference in the words that you seem to.

Probaby because you aren't among the 1.5% of the population that I'm in that IS being told that we're going to hell for our beliefs by some who think their beliefs are superior.

I think, also, it's rather different because I DO believe in a deity. And, frankly, I can't imagine a G-d who would reject his children because they don't believe the messiah has come yet. I also can't imagine a G-d who would reject one of his chldren who did good with their life and did good for others for that reason.

 

[Gunny]

Be fair, point out who it is so they can defend.

I am being fair. The answer is obvious because only one person made remarks in that vein.

 

[Gunny]

Which remarks are you referrring to?



Atheism isn't a belief. It's a lack of belief. And perhaps I wasn't making my point clearly.



Well, perhaps you've never had that said to you. I can tell you from my perspective, it is incredibly offensive and arrogant. Atheists may think they have it right in terms of an intellectual analysis of the likelihood of the existence of G-d, but they aren't smug enough to tell me I'm going to burn for eternity in some fiery furnace because I don't share their belief.



Again, atheists, jews... we don't proselytize. So no one is preaching those beliefs.



Probaby because you aren't among the 1.5% of the population that I'm in that IS being told that we're going to hell for our beliefs by some who think their beliefs are superior.

I think, also, it's rather different because I DO believe in a deity. And, frankly, I can't imagine a G-d who would reject his children because they don't believe the messiah has come yet.

Atheism is a belief. A rose by any other name ....

Had what said to me? That I was going to Hell? More than once. I just tell 'em to get off their religious high-horse with me and don't talk about it. I don't preach, nor do I allow anyone to preach to me.

Almost ALL religions, to include yours and mine are exclusive. It's the nature of the beast.

I myself have pretty much rejected organized religion and do not follow a specific doctrine. The Bible says what it says, and you can take it or leave it as far as I'm concerned and whether or not you got Heaven or Hell is between you and God, not you and me.

 

[Diuretic]

I am being fair. The answer is obvious because only one person made remarks in that vein.

That's your view but as we all know sometimes the transmitter and the receiver are picking up different messages. What you perceive as "remarks in that vein" may not be intended that way.

Or maybe they were and I'm full of it.

I dunno.