Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the

[mattskramer]

I suggest you read the bible and you WILL find that they were in fact NOT chrisitians as you claim.

What defines a Christian? Is a Christian merely one who believes that Jesus Christ is savior/God? Can such a person be misguided and still be a Christian? Is a Christians simply one who calls himself a Christian. If Christianity is real, God will be the one that ultimately decides. As for us mere mortals, I’m inclined to think of a Christian as one who declares himself a Christian. A self-professed Christian who does evil may simply be a misguided Christian. As I said, God will be the ultimate judge.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Yet we are told over and over that the terrorists are not really Muslims because they do not practice what libeals claim is the muslim religion... I wonder why that is?

 

[Shogun]

Yet we are told over and over that the terrorists are not really Muslims because they do not practice what libeals claim is the muslim religion... I wonder why that is?

oh, they are every bit as much muslim as your boy eric rudolph is a christian. Religious radicalism in any form seems to be the midigating factor.

 

[mattskramer]

Yet we are told over and over that the terrorists are not really Muslims because they do not practice what libeals claim is the muslim religion... I wonder why that is?

Wow. Your point is well taken. I guess it comes down to the old adage, “To each his own”. It seems like each religion has its branches, denominations, sects, off-shoots, mutations, cults, etc. Who are you to tell me that I’m a true Christian or not? Who am I to tell you that you are a true Muslim or not. Each person had his translation (and interpretation of his translation, and his modern application of his interpretation of his translation) of his religious book. Each person puts more weight on some passages and less weight on other passages. Oh well. I guess that time will tell who is right as god (assuming that he, she, it, or they exist) will judge each person in his way in due time.

 

[Shogun]

which, I might ad, RGS I see christians on here scoff at your flavor of christianity despite your personal idenity with christianity. Tell me, do their opinions trump your personal identification with jebus?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

which, I might ad, RGS I see christians on here scoff at your flavor of christianity despite your personal idenity with christianity. Tell me, do their opinions trump your personal identification with jebus?

Not the same. Anyone that actively sets out to murder millions is no christian no matter what he says. He may believe in the Bible and Jesus but he is no Christian. Religious leaders that abuse their power for personal gain or personal power are NOT Christians either.

Can these people become Christians? Sure they can if they repent and ask forgiveness and not do those things again.

Everyone sins. To be forgiven , besides asking for forgiveness you must stop practicing the sins. I am afraid mass murder over 20 years negates any claim at having quit practicing the sin.

Individual Crusaders may have been good christians , depends on their actions, BUT the Crusades were not acts of Christian faith. The Inquisitors were NOT Christians either. Their actions and their practice of actively repeatedly sinning prove that while they were engaged as such they were not Christians. Could that have repented , sure but not while actively preforming as Inquisitors.

 

[Shogun]

maybe according to YOUR opinion but the same could be said about the entire genesis of the mormon faction by those who think that REAL christians dont marry and fuck a handful of wives, eh?


The bottom line is that THEY self identified with christianity with every ounce of their faith as you do under your accepted rules of your flavor of dogma. Trying to put disatance between you and them by insisting that they weren't "real" christians is a joke.


I don't care if the actions of fred phelps makes you sick... he is every bit as much a christian as you are.

YOU have no monopoly over who prescribes to whatever tennants of christianity that they live under. YOU do not get to decide who is and who isn't. I'd have figured a mormon who gets to swallow the standard half-cult accusations from your fellow denominations might have figured that out.


and yes, the Crusades were a DIRECT imparative of the european church who wanted jerusalem back from those evil fucking moors. I'm tellig you, it's a fucking riot that you think otherwise. Indeed, the inquisition sure the hell is obviously NOT motivated by christianity.. I mean, it ONLY hunted down HERETECS that DARED to opine different than the accepted CHRISTIAN doctrine. I guess the witch burnings were also not a CHRISTIAN endeavor?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


would YOU like to talk about popes since Allie ran away from that one?


ironically, your words would have put you to the stake under standard CHRISTIANITY under the inquisition..

 

[CharlestonChad]

Science and religion are not mutually exclusive. In fact, just the opposite.

Given the history of great thinkers who believed, I find it incredibly arrogant that you think religion is the result of ignorance. What a laugh. If it was simply ignorance, it wouldn't be so successful, and small minds like yours would have been able to put it to bed long ago.

The truth is, it's beyond you. You don't trust what you can't control, and you can't control God. So you choose not to believe, and that makes you feel better.

Instead of believing in something bigger, better and greater than yourself, you choose to wallow in self-deception and arrogance.

Tell me what's more ignorant than that.

I didn't read past your post, so maybe someone has already addressed these points that I see reoccurring in your posts.

First off, ignorance is the exact reason religion is so very successful. Religion ,for most, is an idea that is taught to people from early age, and within such religion a person is trained to put "faith" over "reason". This opens the door for the control of the masses by the powerful. There truly has been no tool greater to control a group of people then the idea of a god-fearing religion. Millions claim to have a connection through their religion with their god, but it's been proven over and over again that the human mind will manifest it's own reality to perceive. This is a very deep subject in philosophy that I'd be glad to discuss with anyone else if they are interested. The subject is discussed by Gilbert Harman in "Ethics and Observation" if anyone is interested. Just google it if you aren't familiar with him.

The second theme is that you claim evil acts committed in the name of Christianity are not the fault of the dogma, rather the unChristian evil doer. Although in the narrow sense, yes the religion did not directly commit the evils, but it's the board sense which is important. Having a dogma that can be interpretation so loosely that almost anyone can get almost anything out of it is the fuel to this fire. When you dismiss the crusades as not Christian, you forget to account for the fact that without Christianity they would have never occurred. Without the religion, the acts could not have been justified by the doers, thus meaning they likely would not have happened.

As for the last part of your post where you insult shoguns beliefs, isn't that the same kind of intolerant rhetoric that leads to conflict? Yes. According to you, a Christian, your religion isn't responsible for that kind of talk, yet you've been nurtured from early childhood to think that anyone that doesn't believe in what you do is deceiving themselves and can be regarded as arrogant. Fortunately for you, you are still young and will begin to encounter others who have beliefs all over the spectrum. All I ask of you in your spiritual growth is never be unquestioning of your own beliefs. As a famous philosopher, John Stuart Mill, once said (i think it was him) "Socratics dissatisfied is better than a pig satisfied". This just means its of greater good to yourself to challenge what you're told and what you believe in, because blind faith may lead to satisfaction, but it is only harmful to the soul.

 

[CharlestonChad]

Can we stop using the Salem Witch Trials reference?


Study of fungi has led many scientists and anthropologists to believe that those people were actually under the influence of shrooms. A fungus that grows on rye was present at the time, and at certain doses it can cause hallucinations. So basically you have a town with their supply of bread containing seratonin secreting enzymes without the knowledge of the town. Therefore they assumed that these trips were the result of evil, witches, and all that other BS. It's easy for us to look back and judge them, but if you and everyone you know became skitzo without knowing why then you might want to do some crazy things too.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

maybe according to YOUR opinion but the same could be said about the entire genesis of the mormon faction by those who think that REAL christians dont marry and fuck a handful of wives, eh?


The bottom line is that THEY self identified with christianity with every ounce of their faith as you do under your accepted rules of your flavor of dogma. Trying to put disatance between you and them by insisting that they weren't "real" christians is a joke.


I don't care if the actions of fred phelps makes you sick... he is every bit as much a christian as you are.

YOU have no monopoly over who prescribes to whatever tennants of christianity that they live under. YOU do not get to decide who is and who isn't. I'd have figured a mormon who gets to swallow the standard half-cult accusations from your fellow denominations might have figured that out.


and yes, the Crusades were a DIRECT imparative of the european church who wanted jerusalem back from those evil fucking moors. I'm tellig you, it's a fucking riot that you think otherwise. Indeed, the inquisition sure the hell is obviously NOT motivated by christianity.. I mean, it ONLY hunted down HERETECS that DARED to opine different than the accepted CHRISTIAN doctrine. I guess the witch burnings were also not a CHRISTIAN endeavor?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


would YOU like to talk about popes since Allie ran away from that one?


ironically, your words would have put you to the stake under standard CHRISTIANITY under the inquisition..

A pope is nothing more than a man. Ask Catholics.... They do NOT believe in prophets and do not believe God talks to anyone. All he is is a man that was chosen to run their version of the faith..

He can sin like any other man. ALL men sin. NO one is clear of sin, even the most faithful will sin. The difference is they will ask for forgiveness and attempt to not commit that sin again.

The catholic church is a joke. It is no more religious or special then any other christian religion. It is corrupted by man just like all churches are. It is more corrupt because of all the power it once had. Power it abused. Power it continues to abuse.

As for multiple wives, you may want to reread your bible. It has lists of men religious men and leaders that had multiple wives. Further you may want to check your facts, the Mormon church has not condoned such practice since 1896.

 

[AllieBaba]

I didn't read past your post, so maybe someone has already addressed these points that I see reoccurring in your posts.

First off, ignorance is the exact reason religion is so very successful. Religion ,for most, is an idea that is taught to people from early age, and within such religion a person is trained to put "faith" over "reason". This opens the door for the control of the masses by the powerful. There truly has been no tool greater to control a group of people then the idea of a god-fearing religion. Millions claim to have a connection through their religion with their god, but it's been proven over and over again that the human mind will manifest it's own reality to perceive. This is a very deep subject in philosophy that I'd be glad to discuss with anyone else if they are interested. The subject is discussed by Gilbert Harman in "Ethics and Observation" if anyone is interested. Just google it if you aren't familiar with him.

The second theme is that you claim evil acts committed in the name of Christianity are not the fault of the dogma, rather the unChristian evil doer. Although in the narrow sense, yes the religion did not directly commit the evils, but it's the board sense which is important. Having a dogma that can be interpretation so loosely that almost anyone can get almost anything out of it is the fuel to this fire. When you dismiss the crusades as not Christian, you forget to account for the fact that without Christianity they would have never occurred. Without the religion, the acts could not have been justified by the doers, thus meaning they likely would not have happened.

As for the last part of your post where you insult shoguns beliefs, isn't that the same kind of intolerant rhetoric that leads to conflict? Yes. According to you, a Christian, your religion isn't responsible for that kind of talk, yet you've been nurtured from early childhood to think that anyone that doesn't believe in what you do is deceiving themselves and can be regarded as arrogant. Fortunately for you, you are still young and will begin to encounter others who have beliefs all over the spectrum. All I ask of you in your spiritual growth is never be unquestioning of your own beliefs. As a famous philosopher, John Stuart Mill, once said (i think it was him) "Socratics dissatisfied is better than a pig satisfied". This just means its of greater good to yourself to challenge what you're told and what you believe in, because blind faith may lead to satisfaction, but it is only harmful to the soul.

My faith isn't blind, and faith is not ignorance.

It's a shame there are people out there who are so arrogant they just don't see that.

 

[CharlestonChad]

My faith isn't blind, and faith is not ignorance.

It's a shame there are people out there who are so arrogant they just don't see that.

Did I fucking say your faith was blind? No, Jesus christ! And please feel free to comment on my post aside from my personal advice to you.

 

[Dr Grump]

Did I fucking say your faith was blind? No, Jesus christ! And please feel free to comment on my post aside from my personal advice to you.

Over time you will find it is pointless debating with her. She is both arrogant, ignorant, and to put it bluntly, just plain dumb...

 

[AllieBaba]

Did I fucking say your faith was blind? No, Jesus christ! And please feel free to comment on my post aside from my personal advice to you.

You appear to have an anger issue. I suggest medication and meditation. Perhaps prayer. Ask God for help.

And I don't believe I said you said anything. I was simply making a statement.

And let's talk about insults for a minute. I didn't insult Shogun's beliefs, though he insults mine every time he refers to "Jebus" or posts other equally inflammatory and insulting tripe. Instead I was commenting on the nature of ignorance, and how you can see it in action by watching people do exactly what I said...wallowing in arrogance.

Additionally, your post to me is insulting. So I don't think you're in a strong position when it comes to chastising others for insulting posts.

Regarding the rest of your post, I didn't take it apart point by point because there's no point. You've made up your mind, and all you are interested in doing is baiting.

And, Christian or no, we are all human. I don't think I'm superior to you, though apparently atheists think they are superior to others if they believe Christianity is the result of ignorance and stupidity.

Neither do I answer to you. I pull punches in here all the time, because I am a Christian. Does that mean I'm perfect? No way. Does it mean I don't slip? I slip all the time. It doesn't matter, though, to those who like to ridicule people for being Christian. I could be Mother Theresa and it wouldn't keep Shogun from using the term "Jebus" or others from maintaining that Christians are, ultimately, morons.

 

[CharlestonChad]

Over time you will find it is pointless debating with her. She is both arrogant, ignorant, and to put it bluntly, just plain dumb...

I just figured she was young and hasn't come of age where she will question her own beliefs. Some people think for themselves and stick with a religion and become even more sure footed in their faith or give it up completely. And some people never question their beliefs and blindly follow what they are told to be truth, which is sad and is harmful, IMO.

 

[Dr Grump]

I just figured she was young and hasn't come of age where she will question her own beliefs. Some people think for themselves and stick with a religion and become even more sure footed in their faith or give it up completely. And some people never question their beliefs and blindly follow what they are told to be truth, which is sad and is harmful, IMO.

Just read her last post to you. About sums her up really....

 

[Shogun]

A pope is nothing more than a man. Ask Catholics.... They do NOT believe in prophets and do not believe God talks to anyone. All he is is a man that was chosen to run their version of the faith..

He can sin like any other man. ALL men sin. NO one is clear of sin, even the most faithful will sin. The difference is they will ask for forgiveness and attempt to not commit that sin again.

The catholic church is a joke. It is no more religious or special then any other christian religion. It is corrupted by man just like all churches are. It is more corrupt because of all the power it once had. Power it abused. Power it continues to abuse.

As for multiple wives, you may want to reread your bible. It has lists of men religious men and leaders that had multiple wives. Further you may want to check your facts, the Mormon church has not condoned such practice since 1896.

HA!

yea! JUST a man! you crack me up. You know, considering the pantheon of saints and martyrs and the role each plays in the scheme of their dogma you sure are conveying a blinding lack of knowledge about catholocism.

Indeed, the observance of papal infallability seems to suggest a thing or two...


The catholic church is a joke. It is no more religious or special then any other christian religion. It is corrupted by man just like all churches are. It is more corrupt because of all the power it once had. Power it abused. Power it continues to abuse.


hehehe.. I'm sure catholics could say the same about mormonism.. But I digress, weather you want to think that "the church" was wrong or not is a matter of looking throgh the looking glass of your own culture to pass judgement. ethnocentrism. if you were living under their understanding of scripture you'd behave just like they did and still have faith in your own christian observations. I don't care if you think that their actions made them non-christians. THERE ARE PLENTY OF CHRISTIANS WHO SAY THE SAME THING ABOUT YOUR FAITH. It doesn't matter to the inquisitors what your opinion is any more than you care that some baptist thinks you are in a cult. THUS, you are still a christian just like the witch burners and the rest.



As for multiple wives, you may want to reread your bible. It has lists of men religious men and leaders that had multiple wives. Further you may want to check your facts, the Mormon church has not condoned such practice since 1896.

not condoning it doesn't make it just disappear, eh? Indeed, can you tell me with 100% accuracy that polygamy DOESNT happen in ANY mormon sect anymore?

Indeed, I'm well aware of the promiscuity in the OT. But, you arent jewish, are you. That covenant doesn't apply to you, does it? Funny that you defend the practice while tight rope walking around wheather or not the church condones the action.


I'm glad you are a mormon in this conversation. You are in a unique position to walk a mile in the shoes of those who are told that they are not valid christians. Resistance is futile.

 

[CharlestonChad]

Just read her last post to you. About sums her up really....

If that sums here up then I have one question....Does this forum have an ignore feature?

 

[Diuretic]

Can we stop using the Salem Witch Trials reference?


Study of fungi has led many scientists and anthropologists to believe that those people were actually under the influence of shrooms. A fungus that grows on rye was present at the time, and at certain doses it can cause hallucinations. So basically you have a town with their supply of bread containing seratonin secreting enzymes without the knowledge of the town. Therefore they assumed that these trips were the result of evil, witches, and all that other BS. It's easy for us to look back and judge them, but if you and everyone you know became skitzo without knowing why then you might want to do some crazy things too.

rye fungus is ergot, it's a precursor for LSD - they were tripping.

 

[jillian]

rye fungus is ergot, it's a precursor for LSD - they were tripping.

True! But the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition still count.