CDZ Atheism minority?

[koshergrl]

Yes, you did say it was okay, when you offered up the ridiculous suggestion that if Christians want to stop the attacks on them, they should just "evangelicize less".

.

No where did I even suggest it was okay for people to attack Christians for their belief. You are taking the fact I said maybe if you toned down your obnoxious rhetoric you wouldn't get attacked as often. It's like this: If I constantly get in peoples faces and tell them how horrible they are because they don't agree with me, then eventually people are going to get upset and start telling me the same thing. Ignoring the fact that Christians are just as responsible for the anger toward them as athiests is foolish. I will state this again because obviously you keep missing it, I DON"T AGREE WITH ATTACKING CHRISTIANS FOR THEIR FAITH. I FIND SUCH A THING AS BAD AS THE CHRISTIANS WHO ATTACK PEOPLE FOR BEING DIFFERENT. WRONG IS WRONG NO MATTER WHO IS DOING THE WRONG. now I even all capped that so I hope you see it.... stop insisting I said it's okay for people to attack Christians when I didn't.

With that said, I also think that Christians forcing their views on people who don't want to hear them is just as insulting and bad. You have a right to believe what you want BUT SO DO I AND SO DOES EVERYONE ELSE you can't demand that people respect your right to believe what you want then go out and try to force other people to feel the same way, that is an intrustion on human rights and liberty far more than anything I have suggested.

Fining small businesses and forcing them out of business and subjecting business owners (and their families) to death threats because they state their religion and their intent not to participate in sacrilegious activities..those are definitely attacks.

Unless you think death threats aren't attacks?

"Fund Raises $840,000 for Memories Pizza After Attacks Over Gay Marriage Views"

Fund Raises 840 000 for Memories Pizza After Attacks Over Gay Marriage Views - NBC News

Are you going to continue to pretend the claim that Christians are under attack "unfounded"?

I imagine you are.

"Standing up for what you believe. What does it cost you? What do you gain?"

"Who's going to Walkerton with me to burn down Memories Pizza?" Jessica Dooley of Goshen tweeted, according to the Walkerton Police Department. The account has been deleted since the tweet was posted.
"Detectives who investigated have recommended charges of harassment, intimidation and threats, according to Charles Kulp, assistant police chief."

Memories Pizza part of religious freedom debate - CNN.com

Now see, that's what I wanted was you to bring in some kind of actual discussion about what is going on. thank you.

I don't agree with death threats and do agree those are attacks, but what about Christians making the same threats to homosexuals and other people. Hell Westborrow (SP?) Baptist protests the funerals of US soldiers and spews out nothing but gay hate. Why is that tollerable, and why doesn't that count as an attack, but when it comes to attacking a Christian it's suddenly evil and wrong? PLease explain that to me.

As far as fining small business... I bet if a small business got fined for refusing to serve a Christian you would be okay wiith that... sorry but until you show me in some way your applying your sense of outrage across the full spectrum, I am not going to be able to take your argument seriously. In my personal view, I think the whole damn thing is a mess and the idea that the government can force someone to act in contrary to their religious view is wrong BUT forcing people to be subjected to discrimination is also wrong. This is a rare case where two different natrual rights are at odds with each other. I happen to believe that being gay is NOT a choice and for that reason it is just as protected under the law as being black, white, male, female etc. On the other hand religions IS a choice, and if you choose to believe in something that's fine but you can't hide behind that belief and expect to be immune to the same laws everyone else has to follow. There are religions that believe in all kinds of weird things (including some sects of Christianity) but they are not allowed to break the laws just because they have a belief contrary to that law.

I asked you for specifics. Give me a specific instance of Homo businesses being targeted by Christians and we'll talk. So far all you have is empty anti-Christian rhetoric.

 

[koshergrl]

And this:

"I also think that Christians forcing their views on people who don't want to hear them is just as insulting and bad."

So you think that Christians daring to speak of their faith is *just as bad* as Christians being threatened with death for abstaining from Homo weddings.

As I said. You condone attacks on Christians.

 

[koshergrl]

"What punishments are we imagining for felony thoughtcrime in refusing to serve a gay wedding?
"The question I’d ask those who want to use non-state means to punish mom-and-pop businesses that decline to cater gay weddings is what, exactly, their notion of a fair punishment is. Nearly every supporter of gay marriage is on board with efforts to publicly tell people that their position is wrongheaded–I’ve participated in efforts like that for years and insist that respectful critique and persuasion is more effective than shaming. What about other approaches? If their Yelp rating goes down by a star does the punishment fit the “crime”? Is there a financial loss at which social pressure goes from appropriate to too much? How about putting them out of business? Digital mobs insulting them and their children? Email and phone threats from anonymous Internet users? If you think that any of those go too far have you spoken up against the people using those tactics?…
"A relatively big digital mob has been attacking this powerless family in rural Indiana, but I don’t get the sense that its participants have reflected on or even thought of these questions. I don’t think they recognize how ugly, intolerant and extreme their actions appear or the effect they’ll have on Americans beyond the mainstream media, or that their vitriolic shaming these people has ultimately made them into martyrs. I fear that a backlash against their tactics will weaken support for the better angels of the gay rights movement at a time when more progress needs to be made, and that they’re turning traditionalists into a fearful, alienated minority with a posture of defensiveness that closes them off to persuasion…
"I’d be fascinated to [know] how many grandparents of mob participants oppose gay marriage and what degree of social stigma they would want directed toward them."

How should we punish grandma and grandpa for opposing gay marriage Hot Air

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Yes, I understand that the anti-Chrisitians think that Christians should be penalized and forced to observe their faith only in private.

That's rather the point I was making. Thanks for helping out with that.

How on earth are you penalized by having your faith? How on earth do you claim to be victimized when every single day Christians (who worship a kind forgiving non judgemental christ) spout out hate and abuse on anyone that dares not agree with them? My guess is your so focused on how horribly you are treated that you have never looked inside yourself and worked on bettering yourself.

Telling people that they need to be less obvious about their faith or risk attack is *penalizing*.

So is threatening them with fines or jail if they refuse to recant their faith, and participate in and endorse what they consider sacrilegious activities.

But that is not happening and hasn't happened.

Real and fake christians (like the nutters who don't want to bake a frikken cake) are protected in the US. Other beliefs, not so much.

Just recently read there are a lot more atheists than we have previously thought.

 

[auditor0007]

It's quite intresting how different the world is depending on where you are.
In Poland were I live around 95 percent are probably atheists. Yes of course officially most of us are Protestans and get baptised e.t.c but it's mostly for tradition not because we believe.
I always thought this was the case in most modern western countries nowadays (except southern european catholic countries). But now I am surprised to see how the atheists are the minority in the US and how it's hard to "come out" as an atheist.
Of course it's different depending on the state but is this really the case or have I just gotten a miss informed view?
Atheists a minority in the US/most US states?
[INFLAMMATORY IMAGE REMOVED]

Something about you and your post are way off base. Poland is predominantly Catholic, and most Poles are deeply religious.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

It's quite intresting how different the world is depending on where you are.
In Poland were I live around 95 percent are probably atheists. Yes of course officially most of us are Protestans and get baptised e.t.c but it's mostly for tradition not because we believe.
I always thought this was the case in most modern western countries nowadays (except southern european catholic countries). But now I am surprised to see how the atheists are the minority in the US and how it's hard to "come out" as an atheist.
Of course it's different depending on the state but is this really the case or have I just gotten a miss informed view?
Atheists a minority in the US/most US states?
[INFLAMMATORY IMAGE REMOVED]

If you weren't Polish, you'd likely know that American principle rests entirely upon the objective and otherwise self-evident truth that we are all endowed by our Creator with rights so certain that they are inseparable from our being.

Therefore, there are no Anti-theist Americans... Which isn't to say that there aren't millions of anti-theists in the US... they just aren't Americans. Most of 'em are homosexuals, thus Leftists, and other purveyors of evil.

 

[JakeStarkey]

In America, the atheists are few in number, but the militant ones are loud and annoying as our far Christian Right, who are the minority of Christianity in America but are very loud.

 

[emilynghiem]

It's quite intresting how different the world is depending on where you are.
In Poland were I live around 95 percent are probably atheists. Yes of course officially most of us are Protestans and get baptised e.t.c but it's mostly for tradition not because we believe.
I always thought this was the case in most modern western countries nowadays (except southern european catholic countries). But now I am surprised to see how the atheists are the minority in the US and how it's hard to "come out" as an atheist.
Of course it's different depending on the state but is this really the case or have I just gotten a miss informed view?
Atheists a minority in the US/most US states?
[INFLAMMATORY IMAGE REMOVED]

I'm sorry I missed your "inflammatory image removed"

A friend of mine who has been atheist, just came out as agnostic and decided
that A-Theism is "a theism" -- it is the belief there is not a God and therefore not neutral.

As for being NONtheist, I see no reason to separate "natural law" and "secular humanist" approaches
as if these are somehow "at odds or in conflict" with theist religion.

All human beings, including theists and also atheist antitheists nontheists etc,
are still under natural laws that govern human behavior anyway!

No need to pit science/secular approaches AGAINST or AT ODDS with theological approaches.

That is like saying you can't have scientists working in the science department
and also artists in the art department, and have students who excel at both.

I think all people can come out as naturalists as part of human nature.

As for religions, I have found that anyone can be Buddhist or Christian or Constitutionalist
and still be any other faith as long as people take an INCLUSIVE approach.

What makes any religion in conflict is rejecting, excluding or discriminating or dividing against other groups.
So that applies to any group, political religious or secular.

On the other hand, as long as any group is INCLUSIVE of others, then these can be reconciled.
It's like different language for the laws. It may take translating into equivalent concepts or terms,
but these can be in harmony and don't have to be in conflict.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Absolutely correct, which drives militant atheists nutty

A friend of mine who has been atheist, just came out as agnostic and decided that A-Theism is "a theism" -- it is the belief there is not a God and therefore not neutral.

 

[emilynghiem]

It's quite intresting how different the world is depending on where you are.
In Poland were I live around 95 percent are probably atheists. Yes of course officially most of us are Protestans and get baptised e.t.c but it's mostly for tradition not because we believe.
I always thought this was the case in most modern western countries nowadays (except southern european catholic countries). But now I am surprised to see how the atheists are the minority in the US and how it's hard to "come out" as an atheist.
Of course it's different depending on the state but is this really the case or have I just gotten a miss informed view?
Atheists a minority in the US/most US states?
[INFLAMMATORY IMAGE REMOVED]

If you weren't Polish, you'd likely know that American principle rests entirely upon the objective and otherwise self-evident truth that we are all endowed by our Creator with rights so certain that they are inseparable from our being.

Therefore, there are no Anti-theist Americans... Which isn't to say that there aren't millions of anti-theists in the US... they just aren't Americans. Most of 'em are homosexuals, thus Leftists, and other purveyors of evil.

^ Hi Where_r_my_Keys although I agree with the CONCEPT of what you are saying,
the language you use is what loses people. It is does not necessarily speak for all people,
although we are all affected under the laws you are referring to.

My friends who are nontheist may not call the source of life "God' but may refer to
the UNIVERSE or LIFE and not "personify" this source of all life as a humanized 'creator.'

it's perfectly consistent to view "God" as self-existing life, eternal with no beginning and no end,
not unlike Atheists or Buddhists who see life as impersonal and still universally including all people and things.

So this difference in language, like a cultural and perceptual "dialect" is part of what makes
theists and nontheists different cultures. In the past, this has caused political separation,
but in the future, these won't have to be solid barriers; we can learn to communicate across cultural lines.

The common concepts are still there, and universal to all people,
but the LANGUAGE is what has organized people by tribal affiliation so they can relate using like terms.

Same universal laws, but different languages that shape the cultural norms differently.
Like the French will have different phrases and concepts and sensibilities/values
than the British. The human spirit and overall process we go through is one,
but our own paths are going to be unique to each of us, and also make it where we identify
with certain groups more than others. The language difference you point out is one factor
that determines how people congregate and which groups or fields of interest they gravitate toward.

 

[emilynghiem]

Absolutely correct, which drives militant atheists nutty

A friend of mine who has been atheist, just came out as agnostic and decided that A-Theism is "a theism" -- it is the belief there is not a God and therefore not neutral.

Thank you, Jake.
He was going nuts trying to talk about this neutrally on an atheism site,
and gave up with the "most proactive atheists" being religionistic!

To be fair, I can only guess that the other more openminded atheists like him remained quiet and didn't push like the ones who immediately argued with him. So he got the impression that atheist forum was all the pushy kind, because that's who tends to be the most upfront, vocal and visible. (Similar to how the peaceful tolerant
Muslims and Christians, who respect and get along with people of all faiths, aren't the ones yelling loudest in public. No wonder people get such antagonizing views of these religions, based on what is most prominently seen.)

 

[MaryL]

It's quite intresting how different the world is depending on where you are.
In Poland were I live around 95 percent are probably atheists. Yes of course officially most of us are Protestans and get baptised e.t.c but it's mostly for tradition not because we believe.
I always thought this was the case in most modern western countries nowadays (except southern european catholic countries). But now I am surprised to see how the atheists are the minority in the US and how it's hard to "come out" as an atheist.
Of course it's different depending on the state but is this really the case or have I just gotten a miss informed view?
Atheists a minority in the US/most US states?
[INFLAMMATORY IMAGE REMOVED]

Atheism isn't the problem now. 9/11, Charlie Hebdo. It's the theists. Muslims in particular. Islam is the problem NOW.

 

[Liminal]

It's quite intresting how different the world is depending on where you are.
In Poland were I live around 95 percent are probably atheists. Yes of course officially most of us are Protestans and get baptised e.t.c but it's mostly for tradition not because we believe.
I always thought this was the case in most modern western countries nowadays (except southern european catholic countries). But now I am surprised to see how the atheists are the minority in the US and how it's hard to "come out" as an atheist.
Of course it's different depending on the state but is this really the case or have I just gotten a miss informed view?
Atheists a minority in the US/most US states?
[INFLAMMATORY IMAGE REMOVED]

I believe you've just proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you've never been to Poland and you don't know any Poles.

 

[Agit8r]

Atheists in this country (the US) are extremely vocal, and our schools project their agenda, despite the fact they are a minority.

The fact that you thought there were so many more than there are gives credence...you think there are more, because they spend a lot of energy proclaiming themselves as such, and riding our schools to make sure that our "non-religious" agenda is in fact "anti-religious". But in reality, atheists are not a majority here. But it isn't hard for them to *come out*. I don't know where that information comes from, but while it is always open season to jeer at, ridicule and attack Christians....atheists and homosexuals are considered "untouchable". If you dare to employ the same tactics against them that they use against everybody else, you will find yourself expelled, fined, arrested, your business destroyed, your licenses revoked, and prosecuted as well.

This mind set bothers me a lot for a few reasons. First athiests are only expending as much energy proclaiming thier ideals as most Christians do. I also don't see where on earth the idea that there is any kind of anti relgious agenda in schools. I get you may not like the fact they don't teach the bible in school, and that schools focus on scientific and proven information vs. myth and story telling, but that doesn't mean there is an anti religious agenda any more than there is a pro christian agenda. In fact chances are that you wouldn't bat an eye at a class teaching the bible or class time devoted to religious worship. Now I do agree that athiests spend far to much time attacking believers of all religions and I find that kind of intolerance distastful, but I see just as much come from those who call themselves Christian in regards to insulting and attacking muslims, gays, and many other people.

What I see is a bunch of fanatic atheists making stuff up in order to justify persecution, present and future, of Christians.

Ah, yes, the armchair martyrs again.

 

[Unkotare]

It's quite intresting how different the world is depending on where you are.
In Poland were I live around 95 percent are probably atheists. Yes of course officially most of us are Protestans and get baptised e.t.c

Why start a thread just to immediately contradict yourself?

 

[MarathonMike]

Do you ever notice that everything that goes wrong with Religion or lack thereof begins when a bunch of people that believe the same thing decide they need to force their silly ass beliefs on everyone else?

 

[Missourian]

It's quite intresting how different the world is depending on where you are.
In Poland were I live around 95 percent are probably atheists. Yes of course officially most of us are Protestans and get baptised e.t.c but it's mostly for tradition not because we believe.
I always thought this was the case in most modern western countries nowadays (except southern european catholic countries). But now I am surprised to see how the atheists are the minority in the US and how it's hard to "come out" as an atheist.
Of course it's different depending on the state but is this really the case or have I just gotten a miss informed view?
Atheists a minority in the US/most US states?
[INFLAMMATORY IMAGE REMOVED]

This falsehood didn't survive a single post.

The other atheists are sooooo pissed at you right now.

Did you hear that?
I'm pretty sure that was the sound of Guno's head exploding.