At Divided Climate Talks, Consensus That U.S. Is at Fault

[Gunny]

By THOMAS FULLER and ELISABETH ROSENTHAL
Published: December 14, 2007

NUSA DUA, Indonesia — Amid growing frustration with the United States over deadlocked negotiations at a United Nations conference on global warming, the European Union threatened Thursday to boycott separate talks proposed by the Bush administration in Hawaii next month.

U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon and President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono of Indonesia at climate talks in Bali on Thursday.
Humberto Rosa, the chief delegate from Portugal, which holds the rotating presidency of the European Union, said the discussions next month would be meaningless if there were no deal at the conference here this week on the resort island of Bali.

Germany’s environment minister, Sigmar Gabriel, told reporters, “No result in Bali means no Major Economies Meeting.” He was referring to the formal name of the proposed American-sponsored talks.

The goal of the Bali meeting, which is being attended by delegates from 190 countries and which is scheduled to end Friday, is to reach agreement on a plan for a future deal to reduce greenhouse gases.

The escalating bitterness between the European Union and the United States came as former Vice President Al Gore told delegates in a speech that “My own country, the United States, is principally responsible for obstructing progress here in Bali.”

more ... http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/14/w...fa805c28b0d44e&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

What an absolutely pathetic crock this is. If "the world" doesn't need us, then WTF are they whining about? We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

Piss on all of 'em.

 

[Diuretic]

What an absolutely pathetic crock this is. If "the world" doesn't need us, then WTF are they whining about? We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

Piss on all of 'em.

You can't have a successful peace conference on your block if the biggest kid on the block won't participate. That's all it is. The US is - so far - the biggest contributor to the problem (soon it will be China and probably then India) but won't be part of the resolution. It's okay though, we know it's just your government doing it.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You can't have a successful peace conference on your block if the biggest kid on the block won't participate. That's all it is. The US is - so far - the biggest contributor to the problem (soon it will be China and probably then India) but won't be part of the resolution. It's okay though, we know it's just your government doing it.

Umm I suggest you check facts, the majority of American voters DO NOT want this crap. If and when someone actually bothers to provide a real link between man and global warming, you might get movement. IF and WHEN you "blokes" include China, India and EVERY FUCKING BODY else you might get movement.

I think it is past time to do to you people what you claim we do anyway. Kick out the UN, retaliate in kind to France and the EU when ev er they target American Busimess , commerce or agriculture and respnd in kind when piss ant Countries tell us what bullies we are.

No more foreign aid to Countries that think we are evil. No more humatiarian aid to the world that can not wait to whine bitch and moan about the US. FUCK you all. Remind us in 5 years whether or not Australia actually even lives up to Kyoto. No one else has, especially Europe.

 

[Annie]

You can't have a successful peace conference on your block if the biggest kid on the block won't participate. That's all it is. The US is - so far - the biggest contributor to the problem (soon it will be China and probably then India) but won't be part of the resolution. It's okay though, we know it's just your government doing it.

So 'we' are the convenient excuse for no action. That's cool. Let China, India, South America, Mexico go, blaming the US, which has a higher rate of cutting pollutants than the rest of you Kyoto babies.

 

[Diuretic]

So 'we' are the convenient excuse for no action. That's cool. Let China, India, South America, Mexico go, blaming the US, which has a higher rate of cutting pollutants than the rest of you Kyoto babies.

No, I didn't say that. I said that if the US doesn't get involved then it won't encourage the others (and I am thinking of China and India). It's not sackcloth and ashes here, just looking for a consensus that everyone can live with.

 

[Diuretic]

Umm I suggest you check facts, the majority of American voters DO NOT want this crap. If and when someone actually bothers to provide a real link between man and global warming, you might get movement. IF and WHEN you "blokes" include China, India and EVERY FUCKING BODY else you might get movement.

I think it is past time to do to you people what you claim we do anyway. Kick out the UN, retaliate in kind to France and the EU when ev er they target American Busimess , commerce or agriculture and respnd in kind when piss ant Countries tell us what bullies we are.

No more foreign aid to Countries that think we are evil. No more humatiarian aid to the world that can not wait to whine bitch and moan about the US. FUCK you all. Remind us in 5 years whether or not Australia actually even lives up to Kyoto. No one else has, especially Europe.

Oh, boo fucking hoo.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Oh, boo fucking hoo.

Except your the ones actually crying. So bad you think making threats will help.

 

[Kid Pickle]

No, I didn't say that. I said that if the US doesn't get involved then it won't encourage the others (and I am thinking of China and India). It's not sackcloth and ashes here, just looking for a consensus that everyone can live with.

China will do whatever it must to become the next dominant superpower, especially if it can get away with it at the expense of the U.S.

India is just trying to get itself together. The craziest thing about the whole worldwide-global-warming-team-up-agreement thing is that in order for it to work, third-world nations that need a robust, fossil-fuel burning economy to prosper are told that they must stay where they are.
Those uppity Africans should really know where their place is for the betterment of the world, shouldn't they?

 

[Larkinn]

What an absolutely pathetic crock this is. If "the world" doesn't need us, then WTF are they whining about? We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

Piss on all of 'em.

Who exactly is saying the world doesn't need the US?

 

[Larkinn]

Umm I suggest you check facts, the majority of American voters DO NOT want this crap. If and when someone actually bothers to provide a real link between man and global warming, you might get movement. IF and WHEN you "blokes" include China, India and EVERY FUCKING BODY else you might get movement.

Got a link to the "majority of American voters"? And the US will follow once everyone else does? So much for American leadership.

I think it is past time to do to you people what you claim we do anyway. Kick out the UN, retaliate in kind to France and the EU when ev er they target American Busimess , commerce or agriculture and respnd in kind when piss ant Countries tell us what bullies we are.

No more foreign aid to Countries that think we are evil. No more humatiarian aid to the world that can not wait to whine bitch and moan about the US. FUCK you all. Remind us in 5 years whether or not Australia actually even lives up to Kyoto. No one else has, especially Europe.

Its amazing how the incredibly stupid views of isolationism are making a comeback in America today.

 

[Larkinn]

So 'we' are the convenient excuse for no action. That's cool. Let China, India, South America, Mexico go, blaming the US, which has a higher rate of cutting pollutants than the rest of you Kyoto babies.

Link please?

 

[Diuretic]

Except your the ones actually crying. So bad you think making threats will help.

Change of administration will work wonders. Once the oil interests are out of the White House and someone not beholden to vested interests is in there then we might see some informed action.

 

[Diuretic]

China will do whatever it must to become the next dominant superpower, especially if it can get away with it at the expense of the U.S.

That's true. And it's NOT a good thing. But no-one is telling the US to sacrifice its interests, just to join in the debate constructively.

India is just trying to get itself together. The craziest thing about the whole worldwide-global-warming-team-up-agreement thing is that in order for it to work, third-world nations that need a robust, fossil-fuel burning economy to prosper are told that they must stay where they are.
Those uppity Africans should really know where their place is for the betterment of the world, shouldn't they?

It's funny to see the concerns being expressed for India and Africa just popping up now. Yeah, we should all stand back and let the developing nations pollute the Earth like we have, I mean it's only fair, right? We did it, so they should be allowed to join in. Nope, that won't fly and that's why we need a global debate.

 

[Kid Pickle]

Pray tell, how does a developing nation become economically viable without coal or nuclear electricity, oil-fueled trains, trucks, and automobiles, petroleum-based plastics, and other evil stuff like that? How does any first-world nation maintain its quality of life without these things?

The real interests behind this movement is anti-humanitarian, Gaiaist, Socialist nonsense devised to impoversh the world so that certain people can be the saviors of mankind, gobbling all the power without pesky things like sovereignty and economic freedom getting in the way.

Unfortunatly, those who don't give a flying cat dook about the rules like Russia, China, Iran, and others will conquer their corners of the world and enslave us all.

 

[Larkinn]

Pray tell, how does a developing nation become economically viable without coal or nuclear electricity, oil-fueled trains, trucks, and automobiles, petroleum-based plastics, and other evil stuff like that? How does any first-world nation maintain its quality of life without these things?

Nuclear energy does not put much CO2 in the air, if any. And yes, quality of life will have to go down.

The real interests behind this movement is anti-humanitarian, Gaiaist, Socialist nonsense devised to impoversh the world so that certain people can be the saviors of mankind, gobbling all the power without pesky things like sovereignty and economic freedom getting in the way.

Pssh, nonsense. You've just created a list of "evils" and said they are behind this as if its all a grand conspiracy.

Unfortunatly, those who don't give a flying cat dook about the rules like Russia, China, Iran, and others will conquer their corners of the world and enslave us all.

Err wasn't it you who said pessimism was a drug or some such thing? This seems wildly over pessimistic.

 

[Diuretic]

Pray tell, how does a developing nation become economically viable without coal or nuclear electricity, oil-fueled trains, trucks, and automobiles, petroleum-based plastics, and other evil stuff like that? How does any first-world nation maintain its quality of life without these things?

Fair question. We need to find out how it can be made viable.

The real interests behind this movement is anti-humanitarian, Gaiaist, Socialist nonsense devised to impoversh the world so that certain people can be the saviors of mankind, gobbling all the power without pesky things like sovereignty and economic freedom getting in the way.

That assumes (and I think follows from the first comment I separated out) that there's one model of humanity to be followed. We need to be a bit smarter than that.

Unfortunatly, those who don't give a flying cat dook about the rules like Russia, China, Iran, and others will conquer their corners of the world and enslave us all.

I didn't say anyone had to give up their means of self defence.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

That's true. And it's NOT a good thing. But no-one is telling the US to sacrifice its interests, just to join in the debate constructively.



It's funny to see the concerns being expressed for India and Africa just popping up now. Yeah, we should all stand back and let the developing nations pollute the Earth like we have, I mean it's only fair, right? We did it, so they should be allowed to join in. Nope, that won't fly and that's why we need a global debate.

Except THEY do get exempted. That is part of the problem with why we never ratified Kyoto. Of course the fact it does nothing to help was another big reason.

 

[Diuretic]

With a bit of luck we might end up getting to somewhere we can all live with. And I do mean "live with".

 

[Annie]

With a bit of luck we might end up getting to somewhere we can all live with. And I do mean "live with".

I can't speak for the government though it seems to me that whenever there are one of these meetings in nice, warm places, the US sends reps there. They talk. Meanwhile back here, most of us are doing what we can. Most importantly, it seems like industry is doing what they can, more effectively than any other country.

Not signing a plan to kill off our economy does not mean we are not listening or acting.

 

[Diuretic]

Fair enough.

I'm not a greenie nutter. I know what it means to condemn an economy. I saw my father laid off from a job in a shipyard because our government and the company he worked for were incompetent (didn't scan far enough to see Japan's shipbuilding industry taking over). I'm not advocating shutting anything down and tossing workers on the scrapheap. I'm simply saying we need to sit down and think about what we can do now and in the future and to plan to try to reduce harmful effects on our environment. If we start thinking about it now we can avoid shutting down industries and tossing people out of work.