Assault weapons ban

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The topic has veered a bit into changing the Constitution or amending the Second Amendment I would just say take a real good look at Congress. Do you really trust these knuckleheads to do that without screwing it up big time?

Given the fact the new AWB will not pass in the Senate, it would seem they’re addressing the issue in a responsible manner.

 

[Snookie]

The topic has veered a bit into changing the Constitution or amending the Second Amendment I would just say take a real good look at Congress. Do you really trust these knuckleheads to do that without screwing it up big time?

Given the fact the new AWB will not pass in the Senate, it would seem they’re addressing the issue in a responsible manner.

There are many ways to break the gun lobby without passing laws. Heh, heh, heh.

 

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi -

You are aware that black people do not all live in the US, right?

Are you trying to make some kind of point here? All the American blacks I know about live in the US, except the few that emigrate.

 

[Snookie]

Rabbi -

You are aware that black people do not all live in the US, right?

Are you trying to make some kind of point here? All the American blacks I know about live in the US, except the few that emigrate.

Wow you did not understand him, did you?

 

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi -

You are aware that black people do not all live in the US, right?

Are you trying to make some kind of point here? All the American blacks I know about live in the US, except the few that emigrate.

Wow you did not understand him, did you?

No, I didn't. What difference does it make where black people live?

 

[Snookie]

Are you trying to make some kind of point here? All the American blacks I know about live in the US, except the few that emigrate.

Wow you did not understand him, did you?

No, I didn't. What difference does it make where black people live?

 

[The Rabbi]

Wow you did not understand him, did you?

No, I didn't. What difference does it make where black people live?

No answer.

Maybe you didnt understand his question either.

 

[varelse]

Assuming Congress does not try to change that rule I put very little past them when it comes to pushing their own agenda.[/QUOTIt's not a rule, it's a constituyional enumeration. The states would have to ratify it. 2/3'rds. Capice?

I understand perfectly what I am saying is don't underestimate the ability of Congress to find a way around that if they really want to.

Historical precedent certainly seems to imply constitutional limitations on federal power mean little in practice.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

The assault weapons ban legislation put out yesterday got me thinking about when we enacted prohibition to halt the manufacture, transportation and sale of alcohol and alcoholic beverages as we know that ended up creating a bigger problem than the act was attempting to solve. Granted we are not talking about banning all guns like they were with alcohol this ban though does seem to be more far reaching than the last one so I wonder like prohibition could this ban end up causing more problems than it solves?

Only a few seem to get it. semi automatic rifles are easy targets to try and ban. Semi automatic rifles are not used that much in the act of a crime compared to other standard type firearms such as shotguns.
Even Joe Biden said the assault weapon wasn't that effective of a firearm compared too a shotgun.
So gun owners that do not own any semi automatic rifles Think about what you have such as your shotgun it may very well be the next victim on the anti gun attack list.

 

[MDiver]

Well, no matter what law they come up with, I'm heavily armed and have a great deal of ammunition.
As long as they don't show up at my doorstep to forcibly take anything away, no problem. I'm no threat to anyone and never have been. If however, they show up to demand I turn weapons or clips/magazines of any type over to them, with the threat of force if I don't comply, the gunfight begins.

 

[jtpr312]

Is it ignorance or paranoia that drives some anti-gun nutters, or both?

It is not paranoia or ignorance to suggest that Americans are 20 times more likely to die of gunshot wounds that citizens of similar nations - it's a fact.

Until you guys start addressing points like this with a little honesty, you are not really going to get to the starting point of this issue.

If you compare the murder rate in the US to the rest of the world, we don't fare too bad and that's WITH over 300,000,000 firearms, so 20 times more likely to die from a gunshot wound is a meaningless statistic. According to the FBI you have better chance of dying from a hammer strike than a rifle bullet, so who's bullcrapping who?

UNODC murder rates most recent year (full table here)
Country Rate Count Region Subregion
Burundi 21.7 1,726 Africa Eastern Africa
Comoros 12.2 85 Africa Eastern Africa Djibouti 3.4 29 Africa Eastern Africa
Eritrea 17.8 879 Africa Eastern Africa
Ethiopia 22.5 20,239 Africa Eastern Africa
Kenya 20.1 7,733 Africa Eastern Africa
Madagascar 8.1 1,588 Africa Eastern Africa
Mauritius 2.5 33 Africa Eastern Africa
Mozambique 8.8 1,925 Africa Eastern Africa
Rwanda 17.1 1,708 Africa Eastern Africa
Seychelles 8.3 7 Africa Eastern Africa
Somalia 1.5 138+ Africa Eastern Africa
Tanzania 24.5 10,357 Africa Eastern Africa
Zimbabwe 14.3 1,775 Africa Eastern Africa
Angola 19.0 3,426 Africa Middle Africa
Cameroon 19.7 3,700 Africa Middle Africa
Central African Republic 29.3 1,240 Africa Middle Africa
Chad 15.8 1,686 Africa Middle Africa
Congo 30.8 1,180 Africa Middle Africa
Democratic Republic of the Congo 21.7 13,558 Africa Middle Africa
Equatorial Guinea 20.7 137 Africa Middle Africa
São Tomé and Príncipe 1.9 3 Africa Middle Africa
Gabon 13.8 200 Africa Middle Africa
Algeria 1.5 516 Africa Northern Africa
Egypt 1.2 992 Africa Northern Africa
Libya 2.9 176+ Africa Northern Africa
Morocco 1.4 447 Africa Northern Africa
Sudan 24.2 10,028++ Africa Northern Africa
Tunisia 1.1 117 Africa Northern Africa
Botswana 14.5 287 Africa Southern Africa
Lesotho 35.2 764 Africa Southern Africa
Namibia 17.2 352 Africa Southern Africa
South Africa 31.8 15,940 Africa Southern Africa
Swaziland 12.9 141 Africa Southern Africa
Benin 15.1 1,262 Africa Western Africa
Burkina Faso 18.0 2,876 Africa Western Africa
Cape Verde 11.6 56 Africa Western Africa
Côte d'Ivoire 56.9 10,801 Africa Western Africa
Gambia 10.8 106 Africa Western Africa
Ghana 15.7 3,646 Africa Western Africa
Guinea 22.5 2,152 Africa Western Africa
Guinea-Bissau 20.2 294 Africa Western Africa
Liberia 10.1 371 Africa Western Africa
Mali 8.0 1,157 Africa Western Africa
Mauritania 14.7 485 Africa Western Africa
Niger 3.8 552 Africa Western Africa
Nigeria 12.2 18,422 Africa Western Africa
Senegal 8.7 1,027 Africa Western Africa
Sierra Leone 14.9 837 Africa Western Africa
Togo 10.9 627 Africa Western Africa
Anguilla 6.8 1 Americas Caribbean
Antigua and Barbuda 6.8 6 Americas Caribbean
Bahamas 27.4 94 Americas Caribbean
Barbados 11.3 31 Americas Caribbean
British Virgin Islands 8.6 2 Americas Caribbean
Cayman Islands 8.4 5 Americas Caribbean
Cuba 5.0 563 Americas Caribbean
Dominica 22.1 15 Americas Caribbean
Dominican Republic 25.0 2,513 Americas Caribbean
Grenada 11.5 12 Americas Caribbean
Guadeloupe 7.0 32 Americas Caribbean
Haiti 6.9 689 Americas Caribbean
Jamaica 52.2 1,430 Americas Caribbean
Martinique 4.2 17 Americas Caribbean
Montserrat 19.7 1 Americas Caribbean
Puerto Rico 26.2 983 Americas Caribbean
Saint Kitts and Nevis 38.2 20 Americas Caribbean
Saint Lucia 25.2 44 Americas Caribbean
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 22.9 25 Americas Caribbean
Trinidad and Tobago 35.2 472 Americas Caribbean
Turks and Caicos Islands 8.7 3 Americas Caribbean
U.S. Virgin Islands 39.2 43 Americas Caribbean
Belize 41.4 129 Americas Central America
Costa Rica 10.0 474 Americas Central America
El Salvador 69.2 4,308 Americas Central America
Guatemala 38.5 5,681 Americas Central America
Honduras 91.6 7,104 Americas Central America
Mexico 22.7 25,757+ Americas Northern America
Nicaragua 13.6 785 Americas Central America
Panama 21.6 759 Americas Central America
Bermuda 12.3 8 Americas Northern America Canada 1.6 554 Americas Northern America
United States 4.8 14,748 Americas Northern America
Argentina 3.4 1,360 Americas South America
Bolivia 8.9 884 Americas South America
Brazil 21.0 40,974 Americas South America
Chile 3.2 541 Americas South America
Colombia 31.0 14,670+[9] Americas South America
Ecuador 15.2 2,638 Americas South America
French Guiana 13.3 30 Americas South America
Guyana 18.6 140 Americas South America
Paraguay 11.5 741 Americas South America
Peru 10.3 2,969 Americas South America
Suriname 4.6 24 Americas South America
Uruguay 5.9 199 Americas South America
Venezuela 45.1 13,080 Americas South America
Kazakhstan 8.8 1,418 Asia Central Asia
Kyrgyzstan 20.1 1,072 Asia Central Asia
Tajikistan 2.1 143 Asia Central Asia
Turkmenistan 4.2 203 Asia Central Asia
Uzbekistan 3.1 831 Asia Central Asia
China 1.0 13,410 Asia Eastern Asia
Taiwan 3.2 743 Asia Eastern Asia
North Korea 15.2 3,658 Asia Eastern Asia
Hong Kong 0.2 17 Asia Eastern Asia
Japan 0.4 506 Asia Eastern Asia
Macau 0.7 4 Asia Eastern Asia
Mongolia 8.7 239 Asia Eastern Asia
South Korea 2.6 1,251 Asia Eastern Asia
Brunei 0.5 2 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Cambodia 3.4 448 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Indonesia 8.1 18,963 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Laos 4.6 279 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Malaysia 2.3 604 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Myanmar 10.2 4,800 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Philippines 5.4 4,947 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Singapore 0.3 16 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Thailand 4.8 3,307 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Timor-Leste 6.9 75 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Vietnam 1.6 1,346 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Afghanistan 2.4 712+ Asia Southern Asia
Bangladesh 2.7 3,988 Asia Southern Asia
Bhutan 1.0 7 Asia Southern Asia
India 3.4 40,752+ Asia Southern Asia
Iran 3.0 2,215 Asia Southern Asia
Maldives 1.6 5 Asia Southern Asia
Nepal 2.8 818 Asia Southern Asia
Pakistan 7.8 13,860+ Asia Southern Asia
Sri Lanka 3.6 745 Asia Southern Asia
Armenia 1.4 44 Asia Western Asia
Azerbaijan 2.2 206 Asia Western Asia
Bahrain 0.6 6 Asia Western Asia
Cyprus 1.7 19 Asia Western Asia
Iraq 2.0 608+ Asia Western Asia
Israel 2.1 159+ Asia Western Asia
Jordan 1.8 100 Asia Western Asia
Kuwait 2.2 59 Asia Western Asia
Lebanon 2.2 95 Asia Western Asia
Palestine 4.1 145+ Asia Western Asia
Oman 0.7 18 Asia Western Asia
Qatar 0.9 13 Asia Western Asia
Saudi Arabia 1.0 265+ Asia Western Asia
Syria 2.3 463+ Asia Western Asia
Turkey 3.3 2,320 Asia Western Asia
United Arab Emirates 0.8 39 Asia Western Asia
Yemen 4.2 990+ Asia Western Asia
Belarus 4.9 473 Europe Eastern Europe
Bulgaria 2.0 147 Europe Eastern Europe
Czech Republic 1.7 181 Europe Eastern Europe
Georgia 4.3 187 Europe Eastern Europe
Hungary 1.3 133 Europe Eastern Europe
Poland 1.1 436 Europe Eastern Europe
Moldova 7.5 267 Europe Eastern Europe
Romania 2.0 421 Europe Eastern Europe
Russia 10.2 14,574 Europe Eastern Europe
Slovakia 1.5 84 Europe Eastern Europe
Ukraine 5.2 2,356 Europe Eastern Europe
Denmark 0.9 47 Europe Northern Europe
Estonia 5.2 70 Europe Northern Europe
Finland 2.2 118 Europe Northern Europe
Greenland 19.2 11 Europe Northern Europe
Iceland 0.3 1 Europe Northern Europe
Ireland 1.2 54 Europe Northern Europe
Latvia 3.1 70 Europe Northern Europe
Lithuania 6.6 219 Europe Northern Europe
Norway 0.6 29 Europe Northern Europe
Sweden 1.0 91 Europe Northern Europe
United Kingdom 1.2 722 Europe Northern Europe
Albania 4.0 127 Europe Southern Europe
Andorra 1.3 1 Europe Southern Europe
Bosnia and Herzegovina 1.5 56 Europe Southern Europe
Croatia 1.4 62 Europe Southern Europe
Greece 1.5 176 Europe Southern Europe
Italy 0.9 529 Europe Southern Europe
Malta 1.0 4 Europe Southern Europe
Montenegro 3.5 22 Europe Southern Europe
Portugal 1.2 124 Europe Southern Europe
Serbia 1.2 123 Europe Southern Europe
Slovenia 0.7 15 Europe Southern Europe
Spain 0.8 390 Europe Southern Europe
Macedonia 1.9 40 Europe Southern Europe
Austria 0.6 56 Europe Western Europe
Belgium 1.7 180 Europe Western Europe
France 1.1 682 Europe Western Europe
Germany 0.8 690 Europe Western Europe
Liechtenstein 2.8 1 Europe Western Europe
Luxembourg 2.5 12 Europe Western Europe
Monaco 0.0 0 Europe Western Europe
Netherlands 1.1 179 Europe Western Europe
Switzerland 0.7 52 Europe Western Europe
Australia 1.0 229 Oceania Australasia
New Zealand 0.9 39 Oceania Australasia
Fiji 2.8 23 Oceania Melanesia
Papua New Guinea 13.0 854 Oceania Melanesia
Solomon Islands 3.7 19 Oceania Melanesia
Vanuatu 0.9 2 Oceania Melanesia
Guam 0.6 1 Oceania Micronesia
Kiribati 7.3 7 Oceania Micronesia
Federated States of Micronesia 0.9 1 Oceania Micronesia
Nauru 9.8 1 Oceania Micronesia
Palau 0.0 0 Oceania Micronesia
French Polynesia 0.4 1 Oceania Polynesia
Samoa 1.1 2 Oceania Polynesia
Tonga 1.0 1 Oceania Polynesia



http://UNODC murder rates most recent year (full table here)

 

[jtpr312]

The Rabbi -

That's not a terribly strong argument, is it?!

Again, Americans are 20 times more likely to die of gunshot wounds that citizens of similar nations. By using laws similar to those in those 20 countries, the US could reduce its homicide rate massively.

When you are willing to address that point rather than run away from it, let me know.

Remove our minority murders and we're much lower than most other nations, leading me to believe with have a problem with negroes and hispanic gang bangers in this nation, not firearms. You are also aware are you not, that most murders by gun shot are done with ILLEGALLY possesed firearms, and NOTHING the govt of any state or the federal govt addresses this issue. EVERY one of their controls is aimed at legal law abiding gun owners. We have had a 100% ban on the possesion of, use of, manufacture of, importation of and sale of heroin, cocaine and meth in this nation for over 50yrs, yet the criminally minded are able to do all these things in EVERY city, town and suburb in the nation. But the gun ban will keep criminals from getting guns huh?

 

[UseCaution]

The assault weapons ban legislation put out yesterday got me thinking about when we enacted prohibition to halt the manufacture, transportation and sale of alcohol and alcoholic beverages as we know that ended up creating a bigger problem than the act was attempting to solve. Granted we are not talking about banning all guns like they were with alcohol this ban though does seem to be more far reaching than the last one so I wonder like prohibition could this ban end up causing more problems than it solves?

Prohibition did not make drinking illegal, and you could still make it at home. And not diminishing drunk driving, it wasn't directed at this type of activities from alcohol use. As to inflicting death by use. Prohibition was doomed to failure in the first place. If I can still make it at home and drink it, what's the point anyway. Like the war on drugs, the war on pornography, they are failures. As these three have the complications of religion being involved. Outside of a law of complete banishment of assault weapons by civilians. Again, this will be another failure, and a minor inconvenience.

 

[UseCaution]

Okay, only certain types of guns and ammo would be banned. There are lots of other guns to choose from. It's not like having all hard alcohol and "good" beer removed and all we get is one brand of lite beer.

If the guns are banned, you can still keep the ones you have.

Does that mean only bad guys will get assualt rifles? Has it not occurred to anyone that if the guns are banned then gun manufacturers will stop making them? If gun purchases are limited and require a background check, won't that make it harder for criminals to get guns by the crateload? If owners are required to keep the guns in a safe, won't that make the guns harder to steal?

Before I can legally drive a car, I submit to a minimal background check. Any responsible person would not be afraid of a background check on gun ownership. And leave big government out of this. As assault weapons have limited use for that type of situation. If from the cop standpoint making a house call and knowing at least one person was checked out for gun. Would probably save that person's life, but every situation is different.

My suggestion, is another approach. To turn of the burden of responsibility to make them less attractive. On assault weapons vs. Small handguns etc.

 

[asaratis]

Technically a republic but in most American's hearts it is a Democracy.

What you say looks good on paper but in reality it is meh.

God bless America.

That's why the Pledge of Allegiance ends with "to the Republic for which it stands."

Big deal. The pledge is not law. der.

Correct. It is not law...but it does not say "to the democracy for which it stands."

Your density is exceeding great.

 

[MaryL]

OK, we repealed the 18th Amendment. That set a precedent, why can’t we repeal the second amendment? I can’t imagine how private gun ownership has helped ME feel free or be safe. And people with guns harm our society. Perhaps it’s time to rethink the second amendment.

 

[beagle9]

WordsFromTheFoundingFathers:

The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams

The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it.
~Thomas Jefferson

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
~Benjamin Franklin


"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurrence's and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington
First President of the United States

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
Thomas Paine

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
Richard Henry Lee
American Statesman, 1788

"The great object is that every man be armed." and "Everyone who is able may have a gun."
Patrick Henry
American Patriot

"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
Thomas Jefferson
Third President of the United States

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; "
Thomas Jefferson
letter to Justice John Cartwright, June 5, 1824. ME 16:45.

"The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
Alexander Hamilton
The Federalist Papers at 184-8

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria)

"Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense."
- John Adams

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry


A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government. ~George Washington

The real goal is to confiscate all weapons from American citizens, and people in the third world. So the United Nations can implement their New World order agenda on America, and the entire world. The United Nations has a small arms treaty coming up for ratification
by the U.S. Senate.

They want to disarm people all over the entire Earth , so they more easily take over
you, your property, and what ever else of value that you may have.
This is what the New World Order is about.
They don't want you to have an assault rilfe, or high capacity ammo clip, they don't want you to defend yourself properly.
Its all been planned for many years now.
We as Americans, can not allow it to happen.

All it will do is make us weak, while the rest of the world stands there with their fingers crossed behind their backs.

We are theeee power to be taken down in the worlds eyes for this new world order I imagine, as all the other large nations have suffered world wars on their soil more so than America has in their more recent past, and so they look at us now or in a sense, that it is our time now to suffer, especially as we weaken internally and outwardly in regards to our status that is being found here, and within in the world anymore.

 

[UseCaution]

 

[UseCaution]

That's why the Pledge of Allegiance ends with "to the Republic for which it stands."

Big deal. The pledge is not law. der.

Correct. It is not law...but it does not say "to the democracy for which it stands."

Your density is exceeding great.

Students pledging allegiance to the American flag with the Bellamy salute​

this was a funny version!​

 

[varelse]

That's why the Pledge of Allegiance ends with "to the Republic for which it stands."

Big deal. The pledge is not law. der.

Correct. It is not law...but it does not say "to the democracy for which it stands."

Your density is exceeding great.

I'd just like to highlight the following context:

The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855–1931), who was a Baptist minister, a Christian socialist,[3] and the cousin of socialist utopian novelist Edward Bellamy (1850–1898). The original "Pledge of Allegiance" was published in the September 8 issue of the popular children's magazine The Youth's Companion as part of the National Public-School Celebration of Columbus Day, a celebration of the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus's arrival in the Americas. The event was conceived and promoted by James B. Upham, a marketer for the magazine, as a campaign to instill the idea of American nationalism by selling flags to public schools and magazines to students.[4][5][6][7]

Bellamy's original Pledge read as follows:[8][9]

I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Students swearing the Pledge on Flag Day in 1899

The Pledge was supposed to be quick and to the point. Bellamy designed it to be recited in 15 seconds. As a socialist, he had initially also considered using the words equality and fraternity[7] but decided against it - knowing that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans.[10]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

OK, we repealed the 18th Amendment. That set a precedent, why can’t we repeal the second amendment? I can’t imagine how private gun ownership has helped ME feel free or be safe. And people with guns harm our society. Perhaps it’s time to rethink the second amendment.

Why, exactly, do you think criminals- especially those who already aren't supposed to have firearms- will go along with this?