CDZ Ask Me About Marxism

[Marxist_Trash]

I can't give you all the answers, but I'd like to discuss people's objections to it, as well as why I still believe it's a worthwhile philosophy. Not looking to change minds so much as to have an exchange of an ideas. Or at least provide an understanding of how I and most Marxists I know think about politics, the damage done to the idea of Communism by the USSR and governments like it, economics, etc.

 

[Kat]

No, but thank you anyhow.

 

[Marxist_Trash]

Was worth a shot lol

 

[Kat]

Maybe someone will.

 

[KatieK]

Two problems. 1. The rich and the poor tend to be very conservative. 2. Most people are too uneducated to know they are going against their own best interests. Electing Trump is a perfect example. There was a fighter for the poor and what's left of the middle class. It wasn't Trump.

 

[Marxist_Trash]

Two problems. 1. The rich and the poor tend to be very conservative. 2. Most people are too uneducated to know they are going against their own best interests. Electing Trump is a perfect example. There was a fighter for the poor and what's left of the middle class. It wasn't Trump.

Trump spoke to the immediate concerns of the working class, which were charged with rhetoric about immigration, terrorism, and the like. They had been disenfranchised for a long time, and Trump was what they perceived to be their only option...it was either him, a...successful(?) businessman that oozed bravado and promises to take America back for the sections of the working class that had been forgotten by every administration that came before it, or the demonic entity known as Hillary Clinton. In short, the only reason he was voted for was because he claimed to have their interests at heart...populism is a novel concept in a government dominated by neoliberals with capitalist interests at the forefront of their policy decisions.

However, upon seeing what he actually does for the working class (which I predict to be very little), I believe that people will begin to understand that candidates like Trump are not the answer to their problems; the people themselves are.

Also worth mentioning, Bernie Sanders (though not a hardcore Marxist), a self-labeled socialist, almost won the DNC nomination. I genuinely believe a strong labor movement can be formed out of the left and the disenfranchised right.

We already have an American communist here.
Right JakeStarkey

Another American Communist?

*insert get off my lawn pic*

 

[KatieK]

Two problems. 1. The rich and the poor tend to be very conservative. 2. Most people are too uneducated to know they are going against their own best interests. Electing Trump is a perfect example. There was a fighter for the poor and what's left of the middle class. It wasn't Trump.

Trump spoke to the immediate concerns of the working class, which were charged with rhetoric about immigration, terrorism, and the like. They had been disenfranchised for a long time, and Trump was what they perceived to be their only option...it was either him, a...successful(?) businessman that oozed bravado and promises to take America back for the sections of the working class that had been forgotten by every administration that came before it, or the demonic entity known as Hillary Clinton. In short, the only reason he was voted for was because he claimed to have their interests at heart...populism is a novel concept in a government dominated by neoliberals with capitalist interests at the forefront of their policy decisions.

However, upon seeing what he actually does for the working class (which I predict to be very little), I believe that people will begin to understand that candidates like Trump are not the answer to their problems; the people themselves are.

Also worth mentioning, Bernie Sanders (though not a hardcore Marxist), a self-labeled socialist, almost won the DNC nomination. I genuinely believe a strong labor movement can be formed out of the left and the disenfranchised right.

We already have an American communist here.
Right JakeStarkey

Another American Communist?

*insert get off my lawn pic*

Labor is not the answer. Class is. As for labor the focus needs to be on a universal basic income to keep what capitalism we can manage going. AI and the robots will be doing most of the work soon. The humans are going to need money and something to occupy their time.

 

[Michelle420]

I can't give you all the answers, but I'd like to discuss people's objections to it, as well as why I still believe it's a worthwhile philosophy. Not looking to change minds so much as to have an exchange of an ideas. Or at least provide an understanding of how I and most Marxists I know think about politics, the damage done to the idea of Communism by the USSR and governments like it, economics, etc.

What do Marxists think about Prison?

 

[Marxist_Trash]

Two problems. 1. The rich and the poor tend to be very conservative. 2. Most people are too uneducated to know they are going against their own best interests. Electing Trump is a perfect example. There was a fighter for the poor and what's left of the middle class. It wasn't Trump.

Trump spoke to the immediate concerns of the working class, which were charged with rhetoric about immigration, terrorism, and the like. They had been disenfranchised for a long time, and Trump was what they perceived to be their only option...it was either him, a...successful(?) businessman that oozed bravado and promises to take America back for the sections of the working class that had been forgotten by every administration that came before it, or the demonic entity known as Hillary Clinton. In short, the only reason he was voted for was because he claimed to have their interests at heart...populism is a novel concept in a government dominated by neoliberals with capitalist interests at the forefront of their policy decisions.

However, upon seeing what he actually does for the working class (which I predict to be very little), I believe that people will begin to understand that candidates like Trump are not the answer to their problems; the people themselves are.

Also worth mentioning, Bernie Sanders (though not a hardcore Marxist), a self-labeled socialist, almost won the DNC nomination. I genuinely believe a strong labor movement can be formed out of the left and the disenfranchised right.

We already have an American communist here.
Right JakeStarkey

Another American Communist?

*insert get off my lawn pic*

Labor is not the answer. Class is. As for labor the focus needs to be on a universal basic income to keep what capitalism we can manage going. AI and the robots will be doing most of the work soon. The humans are going to need money and something to occupy their time.

Those who perform labor, rather than control it, form a class. The Proletariat.

Also, if we won't be doing work, why is capitalism still important? If we're all living off basic income, why even have corporate executives and concentrations of wealth and power? Why not provide democratic equality instead of having some dystopian 1984-type future where a wealthy upper class can control everything?

What do Marxists think about Prison?

An interesting question. I can tell you what I personally think about it, to begin with:

It is necessary, but rehabilitiation should be the focus of most correctional facilities. If someone isn't pathologically disposed to violence and utterly hopeless, they should be brought back into society. A rehabilitative focus would also reduce the labor and (in a capitalistic society, at least) monetary cost in terms of taking care of inmates.

Also, prison shouldn't be so overused as punishment. Especially when it comes to nonviolent crimes, or drug usage.

As for Marx himself, he was a social constructionist, believing that humans feel at their best when contributing to a society, and the greater good of others, at the same time as their work provides for themselves. Thus, if someone who broke the law in some way...let's say, a burglar that has some sort of kleptomaniacal tendency, received rehabilitation in the form of directing their energies to productive and rewarding work, like, getting a job they genuinely enjoyed, that provided them a way to both contribute to society as well as to successfully make a comfortable living, their tendency to commit wrongdoing would be greatly lessened.

Another thing worth mentioning; prison time shouldn't be something that hangs with you like it does in our current justice system. It affects peoples' abilities to get good jobs nowadays, when it should be a vehicle to becoming a better person than you were when you went in.

 

[Michelle420]

Two problems. 1. The rich and the poor tend to be very conservative. 2. Most people are too uneducated to know they are going against their own best interests. Electing Trump is a perfect example. There was a fighter for the poor and what's left of the middle class. It wasn't Trump.

Trump spoke to the immediate concerns of the working class, which were charged with rhetoric about immigration, terrorism, and the like. They had been disenfranchised for a long time, and Trump was what they perceived to be their only option...it was either him, a...successful(?) businessman that oozed bravado and promises to take America back for the sections of the working class that had been forgotten by every administration that came before it, or the demonic entity known as Hillary Clinton. In short, the only reason he was voted for was because he claimed to have their interests at heart...populism is a novel concept in a government dominated by neoliberals with capitalist interests at the forefront of their policy decisions.

However, upon seeing what he actually does for the working class (which I predict to be very little), I believe that people will begin to understand that candidates like Trump are not the answer to their problems; the people themselves are.

Also worth mentioning, Bernie Sanders (though not a hardcore Marxist), a self-labeled socialist, almost won the DNC nomination. I genuinely believe a strong labor movement can be formed out of the left and the disenfranchised right.

We already have an American communist here.
Right JakeStarkey

Another American Communist?

*insert get off my lawn pic*

Labor is not the answer. Class is. As for labor the focus needs to be on a universal basic income to keep what capitalism we can manage going. AI and the robots will be doing most of the work soon. The humans are going to need money and something to occupy their time.

Those who perform labor, rather than control it, form a class. The Proletariat.

Also, if we won't be doing work, why is capitalism still important? If we're all living off basic income, why even have corporate executives and concentrations of wealth and power? Why not provide democratic equality instead of having some dystopian 1984-type future where a wealthy upper class can control everything?

What do Marxists think about Prison?

An interesting question. I can tell you what I personally think about it, to begin with:

It is necessary, but rehabilitiation should be the focus of most correctional facilities. If someone isn't pathologically disposed to violence and utterly hopeless, they should be brought back into society. A rehabilitative focus would also reduce the labor and (in a capitalistic society, at least) monetary cost in terms of taking care of inmates.

Also, prison shouldn't be so overused as punishment. Especially when it comes to nonviolent crimes, or drug usage.

As for Marx himself, he was a social constructionist, believing that humans feel at their best when contributing to a society, and the greater good of others, at the same time as their work provides for themselves. Thus, if someone who broke the law in some way...let's say, a burglar that has some sort of kleptomaniacal tendency, received rehabilitation in the form of directing their energies to productive work, like, getting a job they genuinely enjoyed, their tendency to commit wrongdoing would be greatly lessened.

Another thing worth mentioning; prison time shouldn't be something that hangs with you like it does in our current justice system. It affects peoples' abilities to get good jobs nowadays, when it should be a vehicle to becoming a better person than you were when you went in.

What about Religion?

 

[DarkFury]

Are you a Marxist?
Stalinist
Castroist?
Chavanist?
Clintonist?

 

[KatieK]

You missed my point. You won't have enough labor to form a labor movement. They won't be working. You need to focus solely on class, the lower and lower middle class versus the much smaller upper middle class and the wealthy. It won't be who does the work it will be who controls the wealth and capitalism is the key to moving the now mixed economy to something more like Christian Socialism. You need to move the US from the Wild West to Germany 1990 first. The capitalists and entrenched lower and upper classes will both fight against you. One knows what they will lose and one is too afraid of losing what little they have to try for more.

 

[KatieK]

Two problems. 1. The rich and the poor tend to be very conservative. 2. Most people are too uneducated to know they are going against their own best interests. Electing Trump is a perfect example. There was a fighter for the poor and what's left of the middle class. It wasn't Trump.

Trump spoke to the immediate concerns of the working class, which were charged with rhetoric about immigration, terrorism, and the like. They had been disenfranchised for a long time, and Trump was what they perceived to be their only option...it was either him, a...successful(?) businessman that oozed bravado and promises to take America back for the sections of the working class that had been forgotten by every administration that came before it, or the demonic entity known as Hillary Clinton. In short, the only reason he was voted for was because he claimed to have their interests at heart...populism is a novel concept in a government dominated by neoliberals with capitalist interests at the forefront of their policy decisions.

However, upon seeing what he actually does for the working class (which I predict to be very little), I believe that people will begin to understand that candidates like Trump are not the answer to their problems; the people themselves are.

Also worth mentioning, Bernie Sanders (though not a hardcore Marxist), a self-labeled socialist, almost won the DNC nomination. I genuinely believe a strong labor movement can be formed out of the left and the disenfranchised right.

We already have an American communist here.
Right JakeStarkey

Another American Communist?

*insert get off my lawn pic*

Labor is not the answer. Class is. As for labor the focus needs to be on a universal basic income to keep what capitalism we can manage going. AI and the robots will be doing most of the work soon. The humans are going to need money and something to occupy their time.

Those who perform labor, rather than control it, form a class. The Proletariat.

Also, if we won't be doing work, why is capitalism still important? If we're all living off basic income, why even have corporate executives and concentrations of wealth and power? Why not provide democratic equality instead of having some dystopian 1984-type future where a wealthy upper class can control everything?

What do Marxists think about Prison?

An interesting question. I can tell you what I personally think about it, to begin with:

It is necessary, but rehabilitiation should be the focus of most correctional facilities. If someone isn't pathologically disposed to violence and utterly hopeless, they should be brought back into society. A rehabilitative focus would also reduce the labor and (in a capitalistic society, at least) monetary cost in terms of taking care of inmates.

Also, prison shouldn't be so overused as punishment. Especially when it comes to nonviolent crimes, or drug usage.

As for Marx himself, he was a social constructionist, believing that humans feel at their best when contributing to a society, and the greater good of others, at the same time as their work provides for themselves. Thus, if someone who broke the law in some way...let's say, a burglar that has some sort of kleptomaniacal tendency, received rehabilitation in the form of directing their energies to productive work, like, getting a job they genuinely enjoyed, their tendency to commit wrongdoing would be greatly lessened.

Another thing worth mentioning; prison time shouldn't be something that hangs with you like it does in our current justice system. It affects peoples' abilities to get good jobs nowadays, when it should be a vehicle to becoming a better person than you were when you went in.

What about Religion?

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people". - Karl Marx.

 

[Marxist_Trash]

What about Religion?

A lot of people from the outside consider Marxism to be anti-religious, due to the actions of Lenin after the October Revolution, as well as Marx's considerations on the subject.

This is how I see it:

Religion in Russia, as well as other places, back when the original treatises of Marxism were written, had an inordinate amount of power. The legend of Rasputin sort of captures it very well in a succinct form, if I were to provide an example: the clergy became a massive force in government, and controlled it to their own ends, leading to immense corruption.

Lenin didn't want this to happen to the USSR, therefore he began dismantling the clergy to protect the working class.

Nowadays? This would definitely be far too extreme of a measure to take. Churches should be protected, but they should have no bearing on individual human rights and the established process of a democratic socialist government. That, and spirituality, even if Marxists wanted to destroy it, is something that simply cannot be destroyed. It's something vibrant, and even from an outside perspective, is a brilliant expression of human creativity, and the fuel for great works of art...sidenote, art was pretty important to Marx.

Are you a Marxist?
Stalinist
Castroist?
Chavanist?
Clintonist?

In order:

• Yes,
• Hell no,
• Castro wasn't even a real communist imo, just kind of usurped a stalinist bureaucracy already in place with his guerilla army. He was more of a nationalist.
• Chauvinist? I don't have a lot of excessive loyalty to my country to be honest...I see states as vehicles for oppression of the proletariat, or in general, as a means for one class to rule another. Do I have a lot of excessive loyalty to my cause? I'm more of an idealist, than a partisan. The closest Marxist parties I identify with are the ISO (International Socialist Organization) and the SEP (Socialist Equality Party), both of which are hardcore Trotskyist organizations.
• *hisses like a cornered cat*

 

[Marxist_Trash]

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people". - Karl Marx.

To be honest, even today, this holds true in ways; religion is very much an escape from a harsh reality, and organized religion (especially the Catholic Church) is a vehicle for oppression and political control much like an actual government.

My personal opinion on the situation is this: remove religion from any sort of governmental significance, but don't suppress it. To suppress it would be anti-democratic...and democracy was something that most Trotskyists I know hold in high regard, especially after the USSR going to hell in a handbasket under Stalin.

 

[Marxist_Trash]

I posted alongside an American communist for years with the screen name of 12sun.
That's why I asked what kind. Most of the mods here are communist of the Castro/Chavez style.

XD. Authoritarianism will never be my cup of tea lol.

 

[Michelle420]

What about civil rights?

 

[Marxist_Trash]

You missed my point. You won't have enough labor to form a labor movement. They won't be working. You need to focus solely on class, the lower and lower middle class versus the much smaller upper middle class and the wealthy. It won't be who does the work it will be who controls the wealth and capitalism is the key to moving the now mixed economy to something more like Christian Socialism. You need to move the US from the Wild West to Germany 1990 first. The capitalists and entrenched lower and upper classes will both fight against you. One knows what they will lose and one is too afraid of losing what little they have to try for more.

You're right, I understand what you mean now. Though I think for a very, very long time to come, there will be workers needed for more lowly jobs. I doubt people will trust robots for everything after every science fiction novel ever preached against letting AIs take control.

Also the middle class, if that's what you mean by entrenched lower class, is fast evaporating from what I see. They will either ascend to the upper class, or be absorbed by the lower classes. The lines between the proletariat and bourgeoisie will become much clearer as time passes...as well as what is being unrightfully withheld from the former. People will become outraged eventually. I honestly think it's more so that right now, the oppression of the upper class is a lot more subtle, and control is expressed in less noticeable ways.

What about civil rights?

Incredibly important. The very premise of Marxism is securing the rights of the working class.

However, I can see where this could come into question when the concept of the dictatorship of the proletariat, as well as the potential for bloody revolution, is concerned. And that is one of the many valid points of attack on Marxism, I will be quite honest.

In terms of the former, it is more of a transitional state preventing those with wealth from retaking power, until democracy is set in stone. It is not a dictatorship in the traditional sense of one person or group controlling power, but an entire class (the proletariat) controlling the other (the bourgeoisie, of which comparatively few are a part of to begin with). Most Trotskyists I know believe it would be short, and ultimately inconsequential in the grand scheme of the ideology.

However, I think in said situation, that great care should be taken to maintain individual rights. No member of the bourgeoisie deserves to be straight up abused, they are human beings.

The latter, there really is no cure for; I imagine the upper classes would fight viciously for the position they have, even if a vast majority of a particular population becomes Marxist.

 

[DarkFury]

Catalonia has taken THEIR Independence from Spain and may not have ANY EU backing. So they will either have a political civil war or maybe an armed civil war. How do you feel about those?

 

[Marxist_Trash]

I think my signature speaks for itself. They voted for their independence, and they better well bloody get it.

Lenin wrote an entire treatise on the subject: Lenin: The Right of Nations to Self-Determination

Also worth mentioning: the US does not support Catalonia either.