Armed Citizens

[westwall]

My main problem with being armed at all times is that sometimes the best response is no response. Swallowing your pride and walking away is often the best response in a conflict

When you are carrying a gun, walking away is not the macho thing to do. Carrying a gun means...I ain't going to take no shit from nobody

Unnecessary gunfire often results

It hasn't yet. Please show us three instances where a person carrying a legal concealed weapon lost control and escalated a verbal confrontation into a shooting match. As anti gun as the media is you should have no problem finding three instances. But I doubt you'll be able to.

Only one comes to mind for me. Years ago, a guy shot another guy after a fender bender. The one who was shot was huge, and the guy that did the shooting was small. In the end it was justified because due to the victems size it was deturmined that the smaller guy would have been badly hurt or killed. CCW holders are not the cowboys many here would make them out to be. They have to take a class and undergo trainning. They dont just get to signe a paper and stuff a Glock in there belt and hit the road. Here is a link for the Texas DPS-

TxDPS - CHL Reports & Statistics

You can get an idea of the reality behind CCW. You also need to remember that if a CCW gets a DUI he gets his card pulled, and if he breaks the law it gets pulled.

I remember that one too and if my memory serves it was the little guy (the CCW holder) who tried to get away from the big guy and was prevented from doing so. He used the gun as the last resort. Is that correct?

 

[Momanohedhunter]

I try not to waste the time of the police with my personal safety

That is precisely what the police are for - protecting the safety of citizens. You would not have been wasting their time. I submit the police would much prefer to come out and kick a couple of jerks off of your car than they would to come out and investigate a shooting - regardless of the reason for the shooting.

And what would you have done if they had still not moved, you had pulled out your weapon and they had just looked at you, laughed, and said fuck you?

No, George they're not. There is no legal responsibilty on the part of police to protect you. None. Below are many cases fully referenced that show the police have no legal obligation for the protection of the individual citizen. I suggest you read a few of them.


Police Have No Duty to Protect Individuals

Court Says No Protection Required

Taking On Gun Control - Do You Have a Right to Police Protection?

Legal Snares for the Unwary Law-Abiding Citizen

I was flat told by an officer from HPD that there job is to react to crime and prevent it if they can. They can not sit in your drive way waiting to catch bad guys. He recomended I shoot an intruder to kill him to avoid a law sute .

 

[rightwinger]

I try not to waste the time of the police with my personal safety

That is precisely what the police are for - protecting the safety of citizens. You would not have been wasting their time. I submit the police would much prefer to come out and kick a couple of jerks off of your car than they would to come out and investigate a shooting - regardless of the reason for the shooting.

And what would you have done if they had still not moved, you had pulled out your weapon and they had just looked at you, laughed, and said fuck you?

No, George they're not. There is no legal responsibilty on the part of police to protect you. None. Below are many cases fully referenced that show the police have no legal obligation for the protection of the individual citizen. I suggest you read a few of them.


Police Have No Duty to Protect Individuals

Court Says No Protection Required

Taking On Gun Control - Do You Have a Right to Police Protection?

Legal Snares for the Unwary Law-Abiding Citizen

Are you saying the police are under no obligation to kick some toughs sitting on your car?

 

[Anachronism]

That is precisely what the police are for - protecting the safety of citizens. You would not have been wasting their time. I submit the police would much prefer to come out and kick a couple of jerks off of your car than they would to come out and investigate a shooting - regardless of the reason for the shooting.

No, the police have no duty or responsibility to protect your life, and definitely not your property. I can guarantee you that while they may not mind coming out to kick someone off your car at 7:30 on a Saturday night, they definitely do have better things to do at that time of day in Worcester, MA.

And what would you have done if they had still not moved, you had pulled out your weapon and they had just looked at you, laughed, and said fuck you?

They would have gotten shot. Realize George that I have very little regard for human life other than my own, and any piece of property that I own is worth more to me than the life of anyone dumb enough to take it from me. There's $15 in my wallet right now and I would shoot a mugger over it in a heartbeat.

 

[rightwinger]

My main problem with being armed at all times is that sometimes the best response is no response. Swallowing your pride and walking away is often the best response in a conflict

When you are carrying a gun, walking away is not the macho thing to do. Carrying a gun means...I ain't going to take no shit from nobody

Unnecessary gunfire often results

It hasn't yet. Please show us three instances where a person carrying a legal concealed weapon lost control and escalated a verbal confrontation into a shooting match. As anti gun as the media is you should have no problem finding three instances. But I doubt you'll be able to.

You are joking I assume..

Fights in bars, minor car accidents, arguments between neighbors all are made worse when one or both of the parties are armed.

And the answer is no......not all gun owners are responsible

Former Marine pleads guilty in road-rage shooting of N.J. resident | NJ.com
PHILADELPHIA — A former Marine faces more than 60 years in prison for the road-rage shooting of a motorist whose 8-year-old daughter was in the back seat.
Thirty-four-year-old Christian Squillaciotti pleaded guilty to two counts of attempted murder Thursday in Philadelphia. Authorities said he was enraged in Oct. 2008 when he fired at the car driven by Thomas Timko of Glendora.

PITTSBURGH -- Police said a fender-bender prompted a road rage shooting in Wilkinsburg that left one man hospitalized.

Allegheny County police said two men were arguing over an earlier collision when one man shot the other several times in his legs.

Witnesses told investigators that when the victim was lying on the ground, the shooter fired two more shots at him.
Road Rage Shooting Suspect: 'I Made Sure He Was Alive' - News Story - WPXI Pittsburgh

Witnesses told investigators that an argument between Pelt and a neighbor escalated, and one neighbor called some friends to join in the argument.

At some point during the argument, shots were fired.

No arrests have been made.

Deputies: Argument Between Neighbors Led To Fatal Shooting - West Palm Beach News Story - WPBF West Palm Beach

In each case, normal conflicts that could have been resolved non lethally ended in a death because one or more of them were armed.

 

[Anachronism]

In each case, normal conflicts that could have been resolved non lethally ended in a death because one or more of them were armed.

You know, Great Britian made essentially that exact same case some years back. They're now looking at banning knives because all that happened when they got rid of the guns is the combatants turned to other weapons. Stupid, angry people will use whatever is at hand.

 

[rightwinger]

In each case, normal conflicts that could have been resolved non lethally ended in a death because one or more of them were armed.

You know, Great Britian made essentially that exact same case some years back. They're now looking at banning knives because all that happened when they got rid of the guns is the combatants turned to other weapons. Stupid, angry people will use whatever is at hand.

I am not looking to ban anything. Guns are part of our culture and are not going away. When you have second amendment rights, you will have people seeking second amendment remedies to conflicts

It is part of being an American. Like the OP posted there are cases when being armed saves you......there are also cases of people being armed leading to unnecessary shootings

It is the price we pay for our freedom

 

[westwall]

That is precisely what the police are for - protecting the safety of citizens. You would not have been wasting their time. I submit the police would much prefer to come out and kick a couple of jerks off of your car than they would to come out and investigate a shooting - regardless of the reason for the shooting.

And what would you have done if they had still not moved, you had pulled out your weapon and they had just looked at you, laughed, and said fuck you?

No, George they're not. There is no legal responsibilty on the part of police to protect you. None. Below are many cases fully referenced that show the police have no legal obligation for the protection of the individual citizen. I suggest you read a few of them.


Police Have No Duty to Protect Individuals

Court Says No Protection Required

Taking On Gun Control - Do You Have a Right to Police Protection?

Legal Snares for the Unwary Law-Abiding Citizen

Are you saying the police are under no obligation to kick some toughs sitting on your car?

That's correct. In one of the cases listed in the links a woman had filed a TRO and when the bad guy came back she called the police who never showed up. She fortunately survived and filed a lawsuit which was promptly thrown out.

I suggest you read the links I provided, they contain case histories and the eventual judgements handed down, you can then use the information provided therin to confirm that what I have told you is correct.

 

[westwall]

It hasn't yet. Please show us three instances where a person carrying a legal concealed weapon lost control and escalated a verbal confrontation into a shooting match. As anti gun as the media is you should have no problem finding three instances. But I doubt you'll be able to.

You are joking I assume..

Fights in bars, minor car accidents, arguments between neighbors all are made worse when one or both of the parties are armed.

And the answer is no......not all gun owners are responsible

PITTSBURGH -- Police said a fender-bender prompted a road rage shooting in Wilkinsburg that left one man hospitalized.

Allegheny County police said two men were arguing over an earlier collision when one man shot the other several times in his legs.

Witnesses told investigators that when the victim was lying on the ground, the shooter fired two more shots at him.
Road Rage Shooting Suspect: 'I Made Sure He Was Alive' - News Story - WPXI Pittsburgh

Witnesses told investigators that an argument between Pelt and a neighbor escalated, and one neighbor called some friends to join in the argument.

At some point during the argument, shots were fired.

No arrests have been made.

Deputies: Argument Between Neighbors Led To Fatal Shooting - West Palm Beach News Story - WPBF West Palm Beach

In each case, normal conflicts that could have been resolved non lethally ended in a death because one or more of them were armed.

And so far as I could tell not one of them had a valid CCW. That was the goal I set you RW. Find these instances where someone who holds a valid CCW did these sorts of asinine things.

 

[westwall]

In each case, normal conflicts that could have been resolved non lethally ended in a death because one or more of them were armed.

You know, Great Britian made essentially that exact same case some years back. They're now looking at banning knives because all that happened when they got rid of the guns is the combatants turned to other weapons. Stupid, angry people will use whatever is at hand.

I am not looking to ban anything. Guns are part of our culture and are not going away. When you have second amendment rights, you will have people seeking second amendment remedies to conflicts

It is part of being an American. Like the OP posted there are cases when being armed saves you......there are also cases of people being armed leading to unnecessary shootings

It is the price we pay for our freedom

And yet none of the cases you provide us was involving someone legally licensed to carry a concealed firearm. That is what the initial OP is about RW. Find us legal CCW holders doing this sort of crap.

 

[rightwinger]

You are joking I assume..

Fights in bars, minor car accidents, arguments between neighbors all are made worse when one or both of the parties are armed.

And the answer is no......not all gun owners are responsible

Witnesses told investigators that an argument between Pelt and a neighbor escalated, and one neighbor called some friends to join in the argument.

At some point during the argument, shots were fired.

No arrests have been made.

Deputies: Argument Between Neighbors Led To Fatal Shooting - West Palm Beach News Story - WPBF West Palm Beach

In each case, normal conflicts that could have been resolved non lethally ended in a death because one or more of them were armed.

And so far as I could tell not one of them had a valid CCW. That was the goal I set you RW. Find these instances where someone who holds a valid CCW did these sorts of asinine things.

What does a CCW have to do with any of those cases? They were all legally owned weapons

Irrelevant

 

[westwall]

In each case, normal conflicts that could have been resolved non lethally ended in a death because one or more of them were armed.

And so far as I could tell not one of them had a valid CCW. That was the goal I set you RW. Find these instances where someone who holds a valid CCW did these sorts of asinine things.

What does a CCW have to do with any of those cases? They were all legally owned weapons

Irrelevant

The third response to this thread was an attack on CCW permits being possibly issued in Illinois, that is pretty much what the rest of the thread has been about is CCW's and whether they reduce crime. So yes, my question and observation is very relevent.

 

[rightwinger]

And so far as I could tell not one of them had a valid CCW. That was the goal I set you RW. Find these instances where someone who holds a valid CCW did these sorts of asinine things.

What does a CCW have to do with any of those cases? They were all legally owned weapons

Irrelevant

The third response to this thread was an attack on CCW permits being possibly issued in Illinois, that is pretty much what the rest of the thread has been about is CCW's and whether they reduce crime. So yes, my question and observation is very relevent.

Sorry

Not an issue with me. Go after the other poster

 

[westwall]

What does a CCW have to do with any of those cases? They were all legally owned weapons

Irrelevant

The third response to this thread was an attack on CCW permits being possibly issued in Illinois, that is pretty much what the rest of the thread has been about is CCW's and whether they reduce crime. So yes, my question and observation is very relevent.

Sorry

Not an issue with me. Go after the other poster

You're the one who butted into OUR discussion!

 

[Brewbrother]

Huntsville, AL -

After casing the location on two previous visits, an armed robber entered the Chazz liquor store in Florence, Ala. and attempted to strong-arm the clerk. An altercation ensued in which the clerk was able to retrieve a gun and fire at the criminal, striking the robber and causing him to flee. In his escape, the criminal only made it to the store parking lot, where he collapsed and died. After an initial investigation, police determined that the robber was on probation for a previous robbery conviction. Chazz manager Terry Rhodes hoped that the incident would deter future robbery attempts, stating, “I know times are hard and everything, but I hope they'll think twice, because this is not something anybody enjoys doing. You don't want to kill anybody, but sometimes you're afraid for your life, you don't know what they're gonna do.” Police do not plan to charge the clerk.




Anniston, AL -

A woman was alone in her home in Piedmont, Ala., when she heard a suspicious noise. After retrieving a handgun, the woman searched the house and noticed that her sliding glass door had been broken and a man with a flashlight was inside the home. The intruder yelled something at the homeowner, who then shot the intruder several times, killing him. Police noted that it is unlikely the homeowner will face any charges, with Calhoun County Sheriff Larry Amerson stating, “She was totally within her rights to defend herself.”




Birmingham, AL -

Career criminal Kevin Duane Dudley entered the Bait Shop in Bessemer, Ala., drew a sawed-off shotgun and demanded money from the owner. While Dudley was holding the owner at gunpoint, two customers walked into the store, distracting Dudley long enough for the store owner to grab his pistol. The owner then fired at Dudley, striking and killing him. After an investigation, it was shown that Dudley had been convicted of robbery in 1996 and spent time in prison. More recently, Dudley had been a suspect in a number of other armed robberies as well as a murder

A well armed society is a polite society.

 

[rightwinger]

Huntsville, AL -

After casing the location on two previous visits, an armed robber entered the Chazz liquor store in Florence, Ala. and attempted to strong-arm the clerk. An altercation ensued in which the clerk was able to retrieve a gun and fire at the criminal, striking the robber and causing him to flee. In his escape, the criminal only made it to the store parking lot, where he collapsed and died. After an initial investigation, police determined that the robber was on probation for a previous robbery conviction. Chazz manager Terry Rhodes hoped that the incident would deter future robbery attempts, stating, “I know times are hard and everything, but I hope they'll think twice, because this is not something anybody enjoys doing. You don't want to kill anybody, but sometimes you're afraid for your life, you don't know what they're gonna do.” Police do not plan to charge the clerk.




Anniston, AL -

A woman was alone in her home in Piedmont, Ala., when she heard a suspicious noise. After retrieving a handgun, the woman searched the house and noticed that her sliding glass door had been broken and a man with a flashlight was inside the home. The intruder yelled something at the homeowner, who then shot the intruder several times, killing him. Police noted that it is unlikely the homeowner will face any charges, with Calhoun County Sheriff Larry Amerson stating, “She was totally within her rights to defend herself.”




Birmingham, AL -

Career criminal Kevin Duane Dudley entered the Bait Shop in Bessemer, Ala., drew a sawed-off shotgun and demanded money from the owner. While Dudley was holding the owner at gunpoint, two customers walked into the store, distracting Dudley long enough for the store owner to grab his pistol. The owner then fired at Dudley, striking and killing him. After an investigation, it was shown that Dudley had been convicted of robbery in 1996 and spent time in prison. More recently, Dudley had been a suspect in a number of other armed robberies as well as a murder

A well armed society is a polite society.

Gangs are so polite

 

[Wingsofwind]

Huntsville, AL -

After casing the location on two previous visits, an armed robber entered the Chazz liquor store in Florence, Ala. and attempted to strong-arm the clerk. An altercation ensued in which the clerk was able to retrieve a gun and fire at the criminal, striking the robber and causing him to flee. In his escape, the criminal only made it to the store parking lot, where he collapsed and died. After an initial investigation, police determined that the robber was on probation for a previous robbery conviction. Chazz manager Terry Rhodes hoped that the incident would deter future robbery attempts, stating, “I know times are hard and everything, but I hope they'll think twice, because this is not something anybody enjoys doing. You don't want to kill anybody, but sometimes you're afraid for your life, you don't know what they're gonna do.” Police do not plan to charge the clerk.




Anniston, AL -

A woman was alone in her home in Piedmont, Ala., when she heard a suspicious noise. After retrieving a handgun, the woman searched the house and noticed that her sliding glass door had been broken and a man with a flashlight was inside the home. The intruder yelled something at the homeowner, who then shot the intruder several times, killing him. Police noted that it is unlikely the homeowner will face any charges, with Calhoun County Sheriff Larry Amerson stating, “She was totally within her rights to defend herself.”




Birmingham, AL -

Career criminal Kevin Duane Dudley entered the Bait Shop in Bessemer, Ala., drew a sawed-off shotgun and demanded money from the owner. While Dudley was holding the owner at gunpoint, two customers walked into the store, distracting Dudley long enough for the store owner to grab his pistol. The owner then fired at Dudley, striking and killing him. After an investigation, it was shown that Dudley had been convicted of robbery in 1996 and spent time in prison. More recently, Dudley had been a suspect in a number of other armed robberies as well as a murder

A well armed society is a polite society.

Gangs are so polite

Gangs are criminals. If all law abiding citizens were armed then the gangs would think twice before attacking them. Interviews with criminals in prison proves this. They said if firearms were banned then it would make it easier for them to rob, rape, kill, etc... It would take the guess work out of picking their victims.

 

[Wingsofwind]

Billings, Montana -

Out for a Sunday morning drive with his wife and two children, Buford Harris was feeling good. It was a beautiful day, Buford's wife, Clara, was in the seat next to him, singing happily and, best of all, Buford had his trusty, .357 magnum right next to him there in the center console, loaded and ready for whatever trouble might come Buford's way.

Directly behind Buford was a pickup truck being driven by Billy Bob Cutler, another married man. There were only two occupants of the Cutler vehicle - Billy Bob and his fully loaded and ready for whatever trouble might come his way, .38 caliber, Glock, semi-automatic handgun.

Buford was driving a tad slower than Billy Bob. Billy Bob went to pass Buford. As he did so, Buford sped up to prevent Billy Bob from passing him. Billy Bob looked over at Buford and shot him a dirty look as he sped up even faster. As Buford flipped Billy Bob off, Billy Bob cut sharply in front of him, causing Buford to have to brake sharply.

This was trouble. Both men instantly pulled up their respective fire arms and began firing at each other. When it was all over, Buford's wife was dead, one of his children was blinded for life and Billy Bob was in a coma. He would die three weeks later.

Thank GOD Montana has a law authorizing citizens to carry weapons. Think what would have happened if that had not been the case . . .

There's no such thing as a .38 caliber Glock. 9mm yes, .40 S&W yes. .38....no.

This just goes to show that most of those who argue against firearms, such as 'George Costanza', don't even know enough about them to be arguing against them. I have seen this too often.

If you are going to be against firearms and argue against them, please at least learn something about them first. Otherwise your argument is of no effect.

 

[Wingsofwind]

Alabama is a Castle Doctrine State. You can kill to protect your property if the assailant poses any threat while illegally on your property.

In an ideal world, a property owner would be able to give an intruder the chance to surrender themselves to the [armed] occupant to be held until the authorities arrive. Reality, on the other hand, reminds us that there are x amount of variables to contend with in such a volatile and unpredictable situation.

In general, I don't really see a problem with homeowners being able to use deadly force in clear-cut scenarios without fear of prosecution. This is an area in which the UK could really learn from the US. In the UK, thanks to over twelve years of an ultra-liberal, slavishly pro-EU government, that means laws remain in place that by-and-large favour an injured intruder over a terrified homeowner that has taken matters into his own hands by forcibly repelling an intruder, you stand a good chance of going to prison for shooting or injuring an intruder. I kid you not when I tell you that I've lost count of how many times I've read in the papers that an intruder has successfully sued his victims for damages because in confronting the intruder on their property the homeowner infringed upon the intruder's human rights.

I don't, and never will, condone legislation that permits citizens to walk the streets with a concealed handgun.

It is the same here. If a woman shoots a man in the process of raping her he has full rights ti sue her. This is one thing I remember quite well from CCW class. Our teacher told us even if you kill the bad guy, you are still open to civil action from his family.

I was told the same thing. Thankfully we had an attorney going through the class as well and gave us some pointers.
He said...

1. If you have to pull your firearm, it is best if you use it. You would be asked why you had to pull your firearm and why you felt you did not need to actually use it. And if you felt it was best not to use it, then why did you pull it. Brandishing your weapon can be an offence here.

2. If you do have to use it, don't say a word to the authorities. You know the 'Miranda Rights' that are recited to you when arrested? Where it says, 'anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law'.

The best thing to do is keep your mouth shut and get a good attorney. And hope for a good Judge.

 

[George Costanza]

Billings, Montana -

Out for a Sunday morning drive with his wife and two children, Buford Harris was feeling good. It was a beautiful day, Buford's wife, Clara, was in the seat next to him, singing happily and, best of all, Buford had his trusty, .357 magnum right next to him there in the center console, loaded and ready for whatever trouble might come Buford's way.

Directly behind Buford was a pickup truck being driven by Billy Bob Cutler, another married man. There were only two occupants of the Cutler vehicle - Billy Bob and his fully loaded and ready for whatever trouble might come his way, .38 caliber, Glock, semi-automatic handgun.

Buford was driving a tad slower than Billy Bob. Billy Bob went to pass Buford. As he did so, Buford sped up to prevent Billy Bob from passing him. Billy Bob looked over at Buford and shot him a dirty look as he sped up even faster. As Buford flipped Billy Bob off, Billy Bob cut sharply in front of him, causing Buford to have to brake sharply.

This was trouble. Both men instantly pulled up their respective fire arms and began firing at each other. When it was all over, Buford's wife was dead, one of his children was blinded for life and Billy Bob was in a coma. He would die three weeks later.

Thank GOD Montana has a law authorizing citizens to carry weapons. Think what would have happened if that had not been the case . . .

There's no such thing as a .38 caliber Glock. 9mm yes, .40 S&W yes. .38....no.

This just goes to show that most of those who argue against firearms, such as 'George Costanza', don't even know enough about them to be arguing against them. I have seen this too often.

If you are going to be against firearms and argue against them, please at least learn something about them first. Otherwise your argument is of no effect.

The fact that I mistakenly used a Glock .38 caliber weapon in the example I gave in no way detracts from the point that was being made. How about addressing that point instead of harping on a red herring?