Arizona Bill on Immigration

[Vast LWC]

Actually under existing law it's called 'probable cause'.

In United States criminal law, probable cause is the standard by which a police officer has the authority to make an arrest, conduct a personal or property search, or to obtain a warrant for arrest. It is also used to refer to the standard to which a grand jury believes that a crime has been committed. This term comes from the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution.

Considering the fact there is an estimated 400K + illegals in AZ alone, which is in fact a crime (being illegal), opens the probable cause option in dealing with the issue. I.e. number of potential illegals in a specific area = possibility that a larger than normal number are potentially committing a crime, in this instance the FEDERAL crime of being in this country illegally.
The feds aren't doing their job leaving the individual states to find their own solutions to the problem.

And... in this case, what praytell constitutes "probable cause"?

You must have read only the first sentence.

I read the whole post. What, specifically, to the particular officer doing the arresting, would constitute "probable cause", and more importantly, who would this "probable cause" apply to, specifically?

 

[Yurt]

Yes.

However that officer first has to stop them for some other reason. And then has to have a reason to even question their citizenship. Try reading the bill sometime.

I DID read the bill. It specifically states that the officer has the DUTY to arrest anyone they suspect to be in the country illegally.

And if they don't arrest them, they can be fined $1000.00 for not doing so.

You should read the bill yourself, you may find it enlightening.

The officer doesn't need to have any other reason to arrest the person in question other than suspicion of being an illegal alien.

E. A Law Enforcement Officer, without a Warrant, may arrest a person if the officer has probable cause to believe that the person has committed any public offense that makes a person removable from the United States.

Being an illegal alien is a "public offense that makes a person removable from the United States".

And you totally ignore statements earlier in the Bill such as "FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT"
or "A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE" or how about "THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c)."

This is a good Bill and a good law. There is nothing unconstitutional about it. However I am certain that Washington will find a way to shut it down. Because we all know that no one in Washington wants to inconvenience any Illegals.

its nearly impossible to reason with LWC on this one...he has done nothing but distort this bill...he cites sections that supposedly back him up and they do nothing of the kind...for instance...he claimed a section supported the DUTY when it said "MAY"

 

[Ringel05]

And... in this case, what praytell constitutes "probable cause"?

You must have read only the first sentence.

I read the whole post. What, specifically, to the particular officer doing the arresting, would constitute "probable cause", and more importantly, who would this "probable cause" apply to, specifically?

I see where you are going with this. Don't try to "trap" me, I'm not biting. I'm just posting the legal aspect as laid out under the constitution and subsequent legal rulings. I laid out in my original post what 'might' constitute probable cause. Did you not recognize it or are you deliberately ignoring it?

 

[mskafka]

Okay, yes...those who are smuggling illegals over the border should be arrested. (concur) I haven't read the entire bill, but so far, I haven't seen anything that I perceive as unreasonable. But, again...I haven't read the entire thing. One of the reasons that this has elicited so much negative press, is the people who were behind the legislation. A couple of the gentlemen have a less-than-savory reputation connected with what many perceive as racism.

I personally believe one of the biggest solutions to this problem, is to start arresting the people who hire them. You can't blame someone for wanting to escape a country with no opportunities. That is just as bad as shipping manufacturing overseas, or south of the border. Arrest the business owners, and collect those taxes they haven't paid in years. And finally, you have to wonder how many of the people who wrote this bill, have illegals doing landscaping work around their homes. (food for thought)

 

[mskafka]

I see this all the time-people who speak NO English, building multi-million dollar mansions. They fall off the roof, and we treat and transport them (illegals). Conveniently, the foreman always disappears when police and EMS show up. This is one of the wealthiest areas in the US, and the world. And illegals are ubiquitous. Don't get angry at them (illegals). Get angry at those who are paying lip service to the problem, but who personally benefit from them. You're being duped, if you believe otherwise.

Now the drug cartels...send the National Guard and Special Forces after those....demons. If we don't get a grip on this problem; this will be our next war.

 

[mattskramer]

In my opinion, police should be allowed to detain and question people that they think to be illegal immigrants. It does not take much work for a legal resident to have identification. I have a small laminated copy of my birth certificate from 1966. I have a small laminated copy of my social security card. I have a driver’s license. Oh no! What a terrible bother to have my day interrupted by an inquisitive cop. LOL. Look: It should not take more than 5 minutes for a concerned officer of the law to stop me and ask for identification. Okay. I look like a European person. I am not short and dark-skinned. I don’t have a Latin accent. Yes. Such a policy would involve racial profiling. It would be racially prejudicial (pre-judging). Yet, what is the likelihood that a European-looking man in Arizona would be an illegal alien versus a Latin-American man in Arizona being an illegal alien? If it is statistically more likely that the Latin-looking guy is illegal then it stands to reason that Latin-American people are due closer inspection.

Hey, everyone. Here is an idea. Get your freaking ID cards in order!

 

[jeffrockit]

Yes.

Being an illegal alien is a "public offense that makes a person removable from the United States".

You have a problem with this why? Illegal is illegal no matter if you are robbing a bank, assaulting another person or have violated the laws of a sovereign nation. Why should they get a pass as they are clearly breaking the law by being in the US illegally?

You took this remark out of context.

I do not have a problem with removing illegal aliens.

I was pointing out that this could be used as an excuse to arrest innocent people on suspicion of being an illegal, with no other justification.

If there is no probable cause, they won't be stopped. If there is probable cause and they are not illegal, they are not arrested. Pretty simple concept. Why is there such a problem with enforcing our immigration laws that have been on the books? Let's not make something out of this that it clearly is not. We are a sovereign nation that has the right to protect and defend the borders any way we deem. Check out the immigration laws in other countries including Mexico. Are they "racist" for protecting their borders?

 

[Suerobb]

When you are stopped by the cops they ask for ID. Don't have USA issued ID, you are most likely illegal.
Federal law says legal immigrants must carry green cards... and this is racist how?

 

[Amanda]

From the bill linked:



So, if a police officer suspects a person might be an illegal alien (which is an offense that makes a person removable from the US) than they can arrest them, at will, without a warrant.

Yes.

However that officer first has to stop them for some other reason. And then has to have a reason to even question their citizenship. Try reading the bill sometime.

it says nothing about having to stop them for something else, it says they have to make lawful contact.

OMG... does it hurt to bend that far over backward?

If you're pulled over a cop has every right to question ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. Where's you're problem with a cop trying to identify if someone is an illegal?

 

[Amanda]

Yes.

However that officer first has to stop them for some other reason. And then has to have a reason to even question their citizenship. Try reading the bill sometime.

I DID read the bill. It specifically states that the officer has the DUTY to arrest anyone they suspect to be in the country illegally.

And if they don't arrest them, they can be fined $1000.00 for not doing so.

You should read the bill yourself, you may find it enlightening.

The officer doesn't need to have any other reason to arrest the person in question other than suspicion of being an illegal alien.

E. A Law Enforcement Officer, without a Warrant, may arrest a person if the officer has probable cause to believe that the person has committed any public offense that makes a person removable from the United States.

Being an illegal alien is a "public offense that makes a person removable from the United States".

That's a hard concept to grasp for some. Some would be perfectly content if illegals over ran the country so seeing their reaction to bills like this is really no surprise.

 

[Amanda]

Yes.

Being an illegal alien is a "public offense that makes a person removable from the United States".

You have a problem with this why? Illegal is illegal no matter if you are robbing a bank, assaulting another person or have violated the laws of a sovereign nation. Why should they get a pass as they are clearly breaking the law by being in the US illegally?

You took this remark out of context.

I do not have a problem with removing illegal aliens.

I was pointing out that this could be used as an excuse to arrest innocent people on suspicion of being an illegal, with no other justification.

Why would anyone be arrested if they could produce proper documentation?

 

[mattskramer]

Why would anyone be arrested if they could produce proper documentation?

Like - duh. "Thanks for your concern, officer. Here is my ID card. Care to see my social security card too?" I don't see the big deal in this issue even if it does amount to profiling - as long as the reason for profiling is statistically sound.

 

[Ravi]

It is racist

"Racist" doesn't bother you in the slightest -- only white "racism". Hispanic racism is just peachy. Hint: it's truly RACIST for Hispanics to invade our country and take full advantage of PC by screaming "racist" if anyone peeps about it.

Thank GOD for this bill. Whites are starting to grow a spine. Slowly...

Figures you'd approve of the bill.

I don't care what ethnic group it singles out...black, white, brown or yellow. It is wrong to make having no id on you an offense that lands you in jail.

 

[Ravi]

Actually under existing law it's called 'probable cause'.

In United States criminal law, probable cause is the standard by which a police officer has the authority to make an arrest, conduct a personal or property search, or to obtain a warrant for arrest. It is also used to refer to the standard to which a grand jury believes that a crime has been committed. This term comes from the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution.

Considering the fact there is an estimated 400K + illegals in AZ alone, which is in fact a crime (being illegal), opens the probable cause option in dealing with the issue. I.e. number of potential illegals in a specific area = possibility that a larger than normal number are potentially committing a crime, in this instance the FEDERAL crime of being in this country illegally.
The feds aren't doing their job leaving the individual states to find their own solutions to the problem.

And... in this case, what praytell constitutes "probable cause"?

Brown skin. He's saying that since it is possible that your random brown-skinned person is illegal then the cops have a right to harass anyone with brown skin.

 

[Ravi]

Why would anyone be arrested if they could produce proper documentation?

Like - duh. "Thanks for your concern, officer. Here is my ID card. Care to see my social security card too?" I don't see the big deal in this issue even if it does amount to profiling - as long as the reason for profiling is statistically sound.

What's amusing is that under the normal course of events we are advised not to carry around our social security number and/or birth certificate because identity theft is so rampant.

 

[mattskramer]

Brown skin. He's saying that since it is possible that your random brown-skinned person is illegal then the cops have a right to harass anyone with brown skin.

I don’t see how a cop asking you for ID constitutes harassment.

 

[mattskramer]

What's amusing is that under the normal course of events we are advised not to carry around our social security number and/or birth certificate because identity theft is so rampant.

I think that you would stand a greater chance at being a victim of identity theft by printing your social security number on a tax form or employment application than you would by briefly presenting your card to a police officer.

 

[Ravi]

What's amusing is that under the normal course of events we are advised not to carry around our social security number and/or birth certificate because identity theft is so rampant.

I think that you would stand a greater chance at being a victim of identity theft by printing your social security number on a tax form or employment application than you would by briefly presenting your card to a police officer.

Pick pockets...duh!

 

[tigerbob]

Everyone is going to know everything there is to know about this bill. Arizona brought this on themselves, the bill is a racist horror.

Bullshit. If I go to AZ, I'm going to need to remember to take my green card with me, which is a bit of a pain in the ass but has nothing to do with my race.

 

[tigerbob]

From the bill linked:

E. A Law Enforcement Officer, without a Warrant, may arrest a person if the officer has probable cause to believe that the person has committed any public offense that makes a person removable from the United States.

So, if a police officer suspects a person might be an illegal alien (which is an offense that makes a person removable from the US) than they can arrest them, at will, without a warrant.

Probable cause meaning they are unable to show any ID that proves they are there legally. How hard can it be to put a card in your wallet?