Arizona Bill on Immigration

[slackjawed]

Murder is a crime with a victim. Being undocumented isn't. I realize this is hard for you to grasp.

The undocumented have made Phoenix #1 in North America in the rate of kidnappings, and #2 in the world.

We have twice as many undocumented people. The drug trade is what is creating the problem.

1:My public land is being subjected to litter and drug growing operations by illegal aliens.
2:I am not safe on my public land or my private property and am forced to take extrodianary means to protect myself, my livestock, my family and my property.
3:My civil rights as defined in the constitution are being violated because there is not "equal protection" in the way that the federal government refuses to enforce the law.
4: My community is being forced to use tax monies collected from legal citizens to provide services to illegal aliens in the form of food stamps, school enrollments as well as the extra cost of law enforcement and imprisonment of illegal aliens.

Again, it is the drug trade that is causing these problems. People aren't drug dealers because they are undocumented. They are drug dealers because they are criminals.

btw, illegals CAN'T receive food stamps.

They do, and will in this state until the law goes into effect in August because schools and social service agencies have been forbidden to ask about citizenship.

It is the drug trade that is causing MOST of these problems, not all.

I point out the ways in my previous post how my rights are being violated from the effects of the federal government refusing to enforce their own immigration laws. Those illegals engaging in the drug trade would not be here if the law was enforced. Equal protection under the law, a clause in the US Constitution as well as in most state constitutions, requires any law on the books to be enforced in the same way for everyone, drug dealer or migrant worker alike. To do otherwise is simply to violate the rights of everyone.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Yes they are. An American citizen is REQUIRED by law to have their driver's license with them when driving a vehicle.

Rick

you are required to have your driver's license with you when DRIVING. if you are NOT DRIVING, you have no need to carry it.

This is correct. If the car is pulled over for a traffic violation and the passengers cannot identify themselves then they ALL, regardless of race, are subject to legal residence/citizenship status challenge. That's what the AZ law says.

 

[slackjawed]

As I read more into the legislation, I'm starting to move away from a support position. I'm now on the fence. Here's part of the reason why:

Federal law makes illegal presence in the US a civil violation that is deportable, not a criminal violation that is convictable. The AZ law criminalizes an illegal presence, meaning that those who are accused must also be accorded the full protection and support of the AZ legal system. Plus, AZ law enforcement officials will also be required to show probable cause that resulted in demanding proof of status.

I love any effort to eliminate illegal aliens from the country - especially with the awful criminal activities that illegals are spreading throughout AZ - but I don't know that this bill is a viable solution. I'm beginning to suspect that this legislation has a different purpose - probably related to influencing opinions and driving some alternative agenda that most folks are not considering. I don't know what that is (yet) but I do suspect that this legislation is not workable and is meant for something else, such as using border collapse/failure to justify some larger integrated Mexico/US economic agenda.

The cost and scope of enforcing this is probably too large for AZ to swallow. I'll be paying closer attention and I'll post my thoughts as we move forward.

While the bill was being debated in the state assembly, the argument that was presented was that it would create debate and draw enough attention to cause the feds to enforce the law. Additionally, it was argued in the state assembly that the cost of enforcing a federal law could be recovered by suing the feds for their lack of enforcement.

I too am on the fence about the new law. I see the arguments that pstated above as the main positive point of the law.
In the Az law, to address one of your points, it is illegal to be in the state as an undocumented alien. The "penalty" is to turn them over to the feds for deportation. The means to identify legal or illegal in the AZ law is a reference to existing federal immigration law.

 

[Ravi]

As I read more into the legislation, I'm starting to move away from a support position. I'm now on the fence. Here's part of the reason why:

Federal law makes illegal presence in the US a civil violation that is deportable, not a criminal violation that is convictable. The AZ law criminalizes an illegal presence, meaning that those who are accused must also be accorded the full protection and support of the AZ legal system. Plus, AZ law enforcement officials will also be required to show probable cause that resulted in demanding proof of status.

I love any effort to eliminate illegal aliens from the country - especially with the awful criminal activities that illegals are spreading throughout AZ - but I don't know that this bill is a viable solution. I'm beginning to suspect that this legislation has a different purpose - probably related to influencing opinions and driving some alternative agenda that most folks are not considering. I don't know what that is (yet) but I do suspect that this legislation is not workable and is meant for something else, such as using border collapse/failure to justify some larger integrated Mexico/US economic agenda.

The cost and scope of enforcing this is probably too large for AZ to swallow. I'll be paying closer attention and I'll post my thoughts as we move forward.

Another mind fuck for the justice system, similar to the Gitmo detainees.

 

[slackjawed]

If any of you come to Apache County Arizona and plan to engage in any outdoor activities, please carry your id. Unless one is hunting or fishing*, an id for one that is walking is not required, yet it only takes a bit of common sense to see why one should carry it.
I have been part of the sheriff's posse for several years. I have taken part in too many search and rescues to remember. The saddest thing in search and rescue is to find an unidentifiable body, knowing there are families out there that are still looking for their loved ones who may have been found, but cannot be identified.




*When one is engaged in hunting or fishing one needs a license. The license does not have a photo on it. The license states that a photo id is required to accompany the hunting/fishing license. It states it on the front of the license.

 

[Ravi]

If any of you come to Apache County Arizona and plan to engage in any outdoor activities, please carry your id. Unless one is hunting or fishing*, an id for one that is walking is not required, yet it only takes a bit of common sense to see why one should carry it.
I have been part of the sheriff's posse for several years. I have taken part in too many search and rescues to remember. The saddest thing in search and rescue is to find an unidentifiable body, knowing there are families out there that are still looking for their loved ones who may have been found, but cannot be identified.




*When one is engaged in hunting or fishing one needs a license. The license does not have a photo on it. The license states that a photo id is required to accompany the hunting/fishing license. It states it on the front of the license.

So now you are for making laws for big brother to protect you?

 

[Navy1960]

As I read more into the legislation, I'm starting to move away from a support position. I'm now on the fence. Here's part of the reason why:

Federal law makes illegal presence in the US a civil violation that is deportable, not a criminal violation that is convictable. The AZ law criminalizes an illegal presence, meaning that those who are accused must also be accorded the full protection and support of the AZ legal system. Plus, AZ law enforcement officials will also be required to show probable cause that resulted in demanding proof of status.

I love any effort to eliminate illegal aliens from the country - especially with the awful criminal activities that illegals are spreading throughout AZ - but I don't know that this bill is a viable solution. I'm beginning to suspect that this legislation has a different purpose - probably related to influencing opinions and driving some alternative agenda that most folks are not considering. I don't know what that is (yet) but I do suspect that this legislation is not workable and is meant for something else, such as using border collapse/failure to justify some larger integrated Mexico/US economic agenda.

The cost and scope of enforcing this is probably too large for AZ to swallow. I'll be paying closer attention and I'll post my thoughts as we move forward.

Federal law provides that any alien who 1) enters or attempts to enter the U.S. at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, 2) eludes examination by immigration officers, or 3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the U.S. by a willfully false or misleading representation is guilty of improper entry by an alien. For the first commission of the offense, the person is fined, imprisoned up to six months, or both, and for a subsequent offense, is fined, imprisoned up to 2 years, or both (8 U.S.C. § 1325).
SB1070 - 492R - Senate Fact Sheet

Thats from SB 1070


(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection;
misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States
at any time or place other than as designated by immigration
officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration
officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United
States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the
willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or
imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or
imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to
enter) the United States at a time or place other than as
designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil
penalty of -
8 U.S.C. § 1325 : US Code - Section 1325: Improper entry by alien

Thats from US Code


17. Classifies the violation as follows:

a) a class 2 felony if the person commits the violation while in possession of a dangerous drug, precursor chemicals used in the manufacturing of methamphetamine, a deadly weapon or dangerous instrument or property that is used for committing an act of terrorism;

b) a class 4 felony for a second or subsequent offense or if the person, within 60 months before the violation, accepted a voluntary removal from the U.S. or has been deported;

c) a class 1 misdemeanor in all other cases.

Thats also from SB 1070

The source of this authority flows from the states’ status as sovereign entities. They are sovereign governments possessing all residual powers not abridged or superceded by the U.S. Constitution. The source of the state governments’ power is entirely independent of the U.S. Constitution. See Sturges v. Crowninshield, 17 U.S. (4 Wheat.) 122, 193 (1819).

There is nothing in the Arizona Law that modifies existing Federal Law nor does it over-rule it, it simply seeks to enforce it.

 

[slackjawed]

If any of you come to Apache County Arizona and plan to engage in any outdoor activities, please carry your id. Unless one is hunting or fishing*, an id for one that is walking is not required, yet it only takes a bit of common sense to see why one should carry it.
I have been part of the sheriff's posse for several years. I have taken part in too many search and rescues to remember. The saddest thing in search and rescue is to find an unidentifiable body, knowing there are families out there that are still looking for their loved ones who may have been found, but cannot be identified.




*When one is engaged in hunting or fishing one needs a license. The license does not have a photo on it. The license states that a photo id is required to accompany the hunting/fishing license. It states it on the front of the license.

So now you are for making laws for big brother to protect you?

Don't be a dumbass, I know your better than that!
I am not making any laws. I am asking people to carry an id so when I have to go out and look for them, and find them dead from their own stupidity, their families will know what happend to them.

partisan tools are simply fools

 

[hboats]

Yes they are. An American citizen is REQUIRED by law to have their driver's license with them when driving a vehicle.

Rick

you are required to have your driver's license with you when DRIVING. if you are NOT DRIVING, you have no need to carry it.

Actually that's not entirely true. If you are walking and are doing something against the law (jaywalking, ect...) a police officer will REQUIRE identification.

Rick

 

[hboats]

You are. But American citizens aren't. That's where the problem lies.

Yes they are. An American citizen is REQUIRED by law to have their driver's license with them when driving a vehicle.

Rick

I'm sorry, but you appear to be too stupid to talk to...keep your non sequiturs to yourself.

Thanks for replying with any kind of respect. I appreciate your ability to have a civil discussion.

Please, for all of us "too stupid to talk to" point out ANY error in the above post. You, as an American citizen are REQUIRED to have a driver's license any time you are driving a vehicle. Your passengers are also subject to a request of I.D. if a police officer wishes to see it when you(the driver) are pulled over. Now, your passenger doesn't have to supply an I.D., but if he/she doesn't he/she MAY be subject to detainment until identification can be made.

Rick

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Yes they are. An American citizen is REQUIRED by law to have their driver's license with them when driving a vehicle.

Rick

I'm sorry, but you appear to be too stupid to talk to...keep your non sequiturs to yourself.

Thanks for replying with any kind of respect. I appreciate your ability to have a civil discussion.

Please, for all of us "too stupid to talk to" point out ANY error in the above post. You, as an American citizen are REQUIRED to have a driver's license any time you are driving a vehicle. Your passengers are also subject to a request of I.D. if a police officer wishes to see it when you(the driver) are pulled over. Now, your passenger doesn't have to supply an I.D., but if he/she doesn't he/she MAY be subject to detainment until identification can be made.

Rick

Correct interpretation of the law...in ALL 50 STATES.

 

[mattskramer]

What's amusing is that under the normal course of events we are advised not to carry around our social security number and/or birth certificate because identity theft is so rampant.

I think that you would stand a greater chance at being a victim of identity theft by printing your social security number on a tax form or employment application than you would by briefly presenting your card to a police officer.

Pick pockets...duh!

Then, I better not carry anything in my pockets.

 

[Shorebreak]

...
<snip>
...

I'm beginning to suspect that this legislation has a different purpose - probably related to influencing opinions and driving some alternative agenda that most folks are not considering. I don't know what that is (yet) but I do suspect that this legislation is not workable and is meant for something else, such as using border collapse/failure to justify some larger integrated Mexico/US economic agenda.

The cost and scope of enforcing this is probably too large for AZ to swallow. I'll be paying closer attention and I'll post my thoughts as we move forward.

Maybe the goal is to legitimize the federal/corporate governments desire for a national identity card?

I'll continue to post thoughts on what the actual motive might be behind this legislation.

 

[mskafka]

Brown skin. He's saying that since it is possible that your random brown-skinned person is illegal then the cops have a right to harass anyone with brown skin.

I don’t see how a cop asking you for ID constitutes harassment.

There are a few characteristics that make me suspicious-

When I'm given a name like "John Smith" or "George Michael" (yes, I have been given this name before by someone who was from the middle east). A weird combination of numbers, for a social security number ( which we have to have, to do our jobs). No driver's license...some things make it pretty obvious.

Immigration is our population. None of us can deny that; unless you are an American "Indian". But yes...if one wants to become a U.S. citizen, follow the proper channels, and then WELCOME ABOARD!

 

[Shorebreak]

...
<snip>
...

I'm beginning to suspect that this legislation has a different purpose - probably related to influencing opinions and driving some alternative agenda that most folks are not considering. I don't know what that is (yet) but I do suspect that this legislation is not workable and is meant for something else, such as using border collapse/failure to justify some larger integrated Mexico/US economic agenda.

The cost and scope of enforcing this is probably too large for AZ to swallow. I'll be paying closer attention and I'll post my thoughts as we move forward.

Maybe the goal is to legitimize the federal/corporate governments desire for a national identity card?

I'll continue to post thoughts on what the actual motive might be behind this legislation.

Yup. National ID Card. Here it is:

Dems spark alarm with call for national ID card - TheHill.com

“The biometric identification card is a critical element here,” Durbin said. “For a long time it was resisted by many groups, but now we live in a world where we take off our shoes at the airport and pull out our identification.

“People understand that in this vulnerable world, we have to be able to present identification,” Durbin added. “We want it to be reliable, and I think that’s going to help us in this debate on immigration.”

 

[PatekPhilippe]

...
<snip>
...

I'm beginning to suspect that this legislation has a different purpose - probably related to influencing opinions and driving some alternative agenda that most folks are not considering. I don't know what that is (yet) but I do suspect that this legislation is not workable and is meant for something else, such as using border collapse/failure to justify some larger integrated Mexico/US economic agenda.

The cost and scope of enforcing this is probably too large for AZ to swallow. I'll be paying closer attention and I'll post my thoughts as we move forward.

Maybe the goal is to legitimize the federal/corporate governments desire for a national identity card?

I'll continue to post thoughts on what the actual motive might be behind this legislation.

Yup. National ID Card. Here it is:

Dems spark alarm with call for national ID card - TheHill.com

“The biometric identification card is a critical element here,” Durbin said. “For a long time it was resisted by many groups, but now we live in a world where we take off our shoes at the airport and pull out our identification.

“People understand that in this vulnerable world, we have to be able to present identification,” Durbin added. “We want it to be reliable, and I think that’s going to help us in this debate on immigration.”

In their new immigration legislation proposal they call for a "high tech" ID card for workers and guest workers coming to labor here in America.

 

[tigerbob]

Maybe the goal is to legitimize the federal/corporate governments desire for a national identity card?

I'll continue to post thoughts on what the actual motive might be behind this legislation.

Yup. National ID Card. Here it is:

Dems spark alarm with call for national ID card - TheHill.com

“The biometric identification card is a critical element here,” Durbin said. “For a long time it was resisted by many groups, but now we live in a world where we take off our shoes at the airport and pull out our identification.

“People understand that in this vulnerable world, we have to be able to present identification,” Durbin added. “We want it to be reliable, and I think that’s going to help us in this debate on immigration.”

In their new immigration legislation proposal they call for a "high tech" ID card for workers and guest workers coming to labor here in America.

What's the difference between a worker and a guest worker?

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Yup. National ID Card. Here it is:

Dems spark alarm with call for national ID card - TheHill.com

In their new immigration legislation proposal they call for a "high tech" ID card for workers and guest workers coming to labor here in America.

What's the difference between a worker and a guest worker?

I have no idea tigerbob...that's the way CNN worded it. I hate to think that regular U.S. employees would now be required to carry some sort of "national ID" but at this point with the expansion of government going the way it is it wouldn't surprise me.

I watched the UK debates....quite interesting.

 

[Terral]

Hi Sarah:

Everyone is going to know everything there is to know about this bill. Arizona brought this on themselves, the bill is a racist horror.

No. This 'Law' is good for Arizona and for every 'real' U.S. Citizen living in the Great State of Arizona no longer pandering to Open Border Lobby idiots and those 'hiring' Illegal Aliens. The Illegal Aliens will get the message and GO HOME 'and' displaced Arizona workers will find JOBS being vacated by the goddamned Illegal Aliens! The local Consumer Base and Tax Base will receive an infusion of Cash by more real Americans in the local markets 'and' higher wages required from Arizona Employers now hiring real Americans!

There is nothing racist about 'legal' Americans protecting the lives and jobs of 'legal' Americans. Sarah does NOT know the vast difference between 'legal' U.S. Citizen and 'ILLEGAL' Alien Foreign National that came here in the middle of the night to steal the identity and JOB of a real U.S. Citizen.

Here is where the rubber meets the road for Sarah and all of the Open Border Lobby IDIOTS writing in this fine Law and Justice Forum: Illegal Aliens kill 25 U.S. Citizens EVERY DAY (12 by murder) and ALL of those souls will visit YOU in the lake of fire forever and ever and remind you about the differences between 'legal' and 'illegal.'

The only thing worse than a goddamned Illegal Alien stealing identities and JOBS and LIVES from real U.S. Citizens are foolish Open Border Lobby Idiots pandering to Illegal Aliens 'and' those 'hiring' them. The Great State of Arizona is doing what it takes to protect the identities, jobs and lives of Arizona Citizens. Good for them ...

GL,

Terral

 

[Terral]

Hi tiger:

What's the difference between a worker and a guest worker?

The 'worker' is the 'displaced U.S. worker' losing his JOB to a Foreign National from another country. The 'guest worker' is a Foreign National coming into the USA 'legally' to take a JOB from a displaced U.S. worker.

With 20 Million Americans out of work, we do NOT need any Foreign Nationals coming into the USA to steal American JOBS ... Period.

GL,

Terral