A'relevant' moral dillemma

[trobinett]

Did you even bother to read any of this thread. :talk2:

Yes, but I thought I'd post anyway...... :blah2:

 

[Said1]

Me, for a week.

Yeah. You can come to Canada and get in drunken brawls with frenchmen.

I think we know who the real winner would be. :talk2:

 

[insein]

No brainer. Toture the guy till he talks. Use his wife to get him to talk. Use his children to get him to talk.

What people here in America have to realize is that whether we are nice or not to these people, they will still hate us. There is a difference between being everyone's friend and being a leader. Leaders make tough decisions. Do you take 1 life to save thousands? Being everyone's friend might cost you thousands of lives.

It's time for America to stop trying to be everyone's friend and be the leaders of the world.

 

[Hobbit]

No brainer. Toture the guy till he talks. Use his wife to get him to talk. Use his children to get him to talk.

What people here in America have to realize is that whether we are nice or not to these people, they will still hate us. There is a difference between being everyone's friend and being a leader. Leaders make tough decisions. Do you take 1 life to save thousands? Being everyone's friend might cost you thousands of lives.

It's time for America to stop trying to be everyone's friend and be the leaders of the world.

This seems to be the exact same problem that's causing the 'cool mom' mentality that causes teens' parents to buy them booze and sleep with their friends. Just like parents need to decide to be a parent instead of a friend, our leaders need to learn to be leaders, protectors of OUR rights, rather than just friends with everybody. I mean, sure, it's nice to have friends, but not when they beat the crap out of your other friends.

 

[insein]

This seems to be the exact same problem that's causing the 'cool mom' mentality that causes teens' parents to buy them booze and sleep with their friends. Just like parents need to decide to be a parent instead of a friend, our leaders need to learn to be leaders, protectors of OUR rights, rather than just friends with everybody. I mean, sure, it's nice to have friends, but not when they beat the crap out of your other friends.

Thats exactly what i was thinking when i typed it. The cool parents end up hurting their kids more then REAL parents by not teaching them and just trying to be their friend and make them like you. Guess what, if your kids think your cool, you aint doing a good enough job parenting.

 

[Diuretic]

A madman who has threatened to explode several bombs in crowded areas has been apprehended. Unfortunately, he has already planted the bombs and they are scheduled to go off in a short time. It is possible that hundreds of people may die. The authorities cannot make him divulge the location of the bombs by conventional methods. He refuses to say anything and requests a lawyer to protect his fifth amendment right against self-incrimination. In exasperation, some high level official suggests torture. This would be illegal, of course, but the official thinks that it is nevertheless the right thing to do in this desperate situation. Do you agree? If you do, would it also be morally justifiable to torture the mad bomber's innocent wife if that is the only way to make him talk? Why?

If you torture him and he doesn't talk and the bombs go off you have a problem. If you don't torture him and the bombs go off you have a problem.
If you don't torture him he won't talk. If you do torture him he may talk. So you have to torture him.

The wife? Same reasoning. Has he got kids? Torture them too. Same reasoning.

 

[nosarcasm]

in consequence all mentally ill persons that do bombthreats get tortured and their family and children on top of it.


Next step suspects are tortured. Slippery slope. Thats is why democratic countries came to the conclusion its not worth legalizing torture.

The problem with the real world is that terrorists dont announce their plans and you d have to torture on suspiscion.

I would not legalize torture but use the Presidential power to pardon people that have tortured guilty parties to extract the information on bombs or WMD. So it would be a case to case scenario and the wouldbe torturers have to feel sure that the guy is guilty. If you torture an innocent, time for prison.

ps: Torturing children? Yuck. I 'd like to see the children torturer executed.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

I guess you think the soldiers at Abu Graib are doing a fine job then?

Not the wife?Why not, if it would make the terrorist talk?

he is already deserving of the death penalty, so why not torture first. His wife is innocent, so no right to torture her.

Abu Graib, I have no clue, nor do you or anyone else, what really goes on there, hence I have no opinion. I doubt it would bother me much whatever the soldiers do there if the prisoners are in fact almost all legitimate terrorists.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

By killing him and his family are we not as bad as him, or does this not matter??

No.

I would be interested in more reasoned replies on this, kneejerk reactions are not reasonable per say.?

Just because you might not like the response doesnt make it knee jerk.

Personally I would use any means to get the info from him but still can't help wondering about the value of life and who has the right to play at being god.?

Not playing God. God commanded us to put to death murderers.

What makes anyones life more or less valuable than anothers.?

His murdering innocents

The terrorist obviously has his own opinions on this, and I am sure he doesn't think of himself as a terrorist.?

His opinion is irrelevant. If you cant come up with an opinion on someone willing to kill little kids at weddings, then I think you have a problem

If Bush was about to nuke Iran and only he could stop it, would you torture him unto death to save Muslim lives in Iran?

NO, I would ask him to give good muslims a warning and time to get out, then NUKE EM! (hey, maybe that last line is a bit kneejerk )

 

[LuvRPgrl]

So you would ensure the death of perhaps millions of Iranians for no other reason than they had the capability to produce nuclear weapons?Speaks volumes.

when you couple that with their madman president declaring israel and all Jews must be wiped off the face of the earth, and Hitler is his hero.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

What then do the so called terrorists see?Have you ever played the Devils advocate?You should try it sometime, gives you a different perspective for a while, before you dismiss it and join the rank and file again.

Yeah, kill 'em, nuke the bastards.

"so called" terrorists??
what more do they have to do to qualify for you to call them such?
what is your definition of a terrorist? Does it not include one who terrorizes the public with wanton bombings of civilians.

By the way, MY WIFE and I shop regularly at a shop in Manila that had a terrorist bomb go off and killed four people. I stood on the ground where a man laid dead from the bomb. He was a taxi driver and had a wife and four kids. Now they have no father.

I wouldnt want to kill terrorists though, I would prefer to capture them all. My own pet terrorist would be put in a cell without food. When he got hungry enough I would give him a bowl of pig shit.
I would also wire his hands with razor blades and then show porn pics of really hot women! well, for some of them, it would require gay porn.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

How's about I play the "Devil's advocate" with you.

It`s your mother that is at risk, what would you do to get the information to save her?

How far would you go?

Perspective's DO change don't they?

Or how about asking him, You are in Iran. You are Iranian. OBL comes to you and explains the evilness of America, they come to our country and exploit our oil (never mind its the only thing keeping them from being the poorest of the third world countries), he accuses the US of imperialism. He then gives you a passport and tells you to go to a kindergarten class in Kirksaw, Kansas and blow it up, killing all the kids and teacher. WHat would you do?
This question is for roomy.
Would it be a dilema for you?

 

[LuvRPgrl]

No brainer. Toture the guy till he talks. Use his wife to get him to talk. Use his children to get him to talk.

What people here in America have to realize is that whether we are nice or not to these people, they will still hate us. There is a difference between being everyone's friend and being a leader. Leaders make tough decisions. Do you take 1 life to save thousands? Being everyone's friend might cost you thousands of lives.

It's time for America to stop trying to be everyone's friend and be the leaders of the world.

INteresting. The same concept happens to apply to parenting, and thats why so many kids are lost these days. Too many parents, especially single moms, try to be friends with their kids instead of parents to them.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Thats exactly what i was thinking when i typed it. The cool parents end up hurting their kids more then REAL parents by not teaching them and just trying to be their friend and make them like you. Guess what, if your kids think your cool, you aint doing a good enough job parenting.

HA! I just read your and Hobbits response just after my post above.

well, actually, my kids think Im pretty cool, I think you can balance it well, as I DO NOT GIVE UP my parenting responsabilities to be cool. Fact is, I like rock and roll, skateboarding, breaking rules , speeding (my kids love it in the car!) video games
and alot of other things my kids enjoy too.
I think if it happens naturally while you still maintain your standards as a parent, its ok, but too many, especially moms go out of their way and compromise their parenting to be friends. Moms are particularly suceptable because they so often use the kids to fulfill the needs their husband use to fulfill.

 

[trobinett]

Being born and raised an Englishman I find it almost impossible to entertain the notion of murdering children to further any political grievances I may have, having said that and faced with the evidence, muslim extremists who have been indoctrinated to their various causes obviously don't have the same mindset.Much as people like to think they would never have murdered Jews, or even be complicit to their murder during the holocaust, all one can really say is, who knows.When our military drop bombs on markets or wedding ceremonies we declare it collateral damage or accident, they scream it was murder, and seek revenge, much like us.
I can see the US, with the backing of the UK nuking Iran, thereby sending the ultimate message to the muslim world, we can't afford another shambles of a ground war both in terms of money or manpower, the public won't stand for it either.I would view any nuclear or strategic bombing as the lesser of two evils, it would probably increase the acts of terrorism around the world but the rogue countries would step into line pretty sharpish.If the countries of origin that the terrorists came from were held accountable and punished accordingly I believe we would see a huge drop in terrorism, as those governments would find it in their best interests to 'actively' disband all state sponsored (or not) terrorist cells.

Was there anything else?I tend to ramble a bit and lose my train of thought.

No, you seem to be coming around.........

 

[insein]

Being born and raised an Englishman I find it almost impossible to entertain the notion of murdering children to further any political grievances I may have, having said that and faced with the evidence, muslim extremists who have been indoctrinated to their various causes obviously don't have the same mindset.Much as people like to think they would never have murdered Jews, or even be complicit to their murder during the holocaust, all one can really say is, who knows.When our military drop bombs on markets or wedding ceremonies we declare it collateral damage or accident, they scream it was murder, and seek revenge, much like us.
I can see the US, with the backing of the UK nuking Iran, thereby sending the ultimate message to the muslim world, we can't afford another shambles of a ground war both in terms of money or manpower, the public won't stand for it either.I would view any nuclear or strategic bombing as the lesser of two evils, it would probably increase the acts of terrorism around the world but the rogue countries would step into line pretty sharpish.If the countries of origin that the terrorists came from were held accountable and punished accordingly I believe we would see a huge drop in terrorism, as those governments would find it in their best interests to 'actively' disband all state sponsored (or not) terrorist cells.

Was there anything else?I tend to ramble a bit and lose my train of thought.

1. We don't target the civilian population. Thats why when they get hurt its unfortunate but thats the definition of collateral damage. The only way for civilians to not get hurt in a war is for there to be no war.

2. Ultimately, i doubt threatening a Muslims child with death would do anything. They don't have a fear of death and i think they instill this fear into their families from a young age. Personally i would use the strategy of dipping them in pigs blood or throwing a Koran in a toilet as a more effective "torture" for these primitve morons. But you cant leave ANY option off the table when it comes to breaking these people.

 

[dmp]

2. Ultimately, i doubt threatening a Muslims child with death would do anything. They don't have a fear of death and i think they instill this fear into their families from a young age. Personally i would use the strategy of dipping them in pigs blood or throwing a Koran in a toilet as a more effective "torture" for these primitve morons. But you cant leave ANY option off the table when it comes to breaking these people.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/10/21/1098316785885.html

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Being born and raised an Englishman I find it almost impossible to entertain the notion of murdering children to further any political grievances I may have, having said that and faced with the evidence, muslim extremists who have been indoctrinated to their various causes obviously don't have the same mindset.Much as people like to think they would never have murdered Jews, or even be complicit to their murder during the holocaust, all one can really say is, who knows.:

So, you think our values are dictated by our upbringing. Do you not agree, whatever the reason, murdering little kids intentionally as targets is wrong? If you cant admit that, you are hopeless. If you can, then wouldnt you support changing their culture so it doesnt create evil monsters?

When our military drop bombs on markets or wedding ceremonies we declare it collateral damage or accident, they scream it was murder, and seek revenge, much like us.:

Dont you have the ability to judge some particular acts as inherently evil? Dont you have the ability to discern the difference between attempting to kill terrorists and inadvertantly killing kids? Cant you see the difference between the intentions of the targets? Do you think the US citizens would support intentional bombings of wedddings? Do you think muslim nations support the intentional murdering of US Citizens (and Bali, Filipino, English, Spanish, French, etc. etc. etc. )? The last is a rhetorical question, as they did publicly support the 9/11 murderings.
Not to mention, their desire for revenge is a smokescreen. If you read what they write, you will discover their motivation is that the entire world be converted to RADICAL ISLAM.

I can see the US, with the backing of the UK nuking Iran, thereby sending the ultimate message to the muslim world, we can't afford another shambles of a ground war both in terms of money or manpower, the public won't stand for it either.I would view any nuclear or strategic bombing as the lesser of two evils, it would probably increase the acts of terrorism around the world but the rogue countries would step into line pretty sharpish.If the countries of origin that the terrorists came from were held accountable and punished accordingly I believe we would see a huge drop in terrorism, as those governments would find it in their best interests to 'actively' disband all state sponsored (or not) terrorist cells.

Was there anything else?I tend to ramble a bit and lose my train of thought.

I didnt find you rambling, but you seem to have opposing viewpoints upon yourself. This last paragraph makes sense, but it seems to contradict other stances you are taking.
I would never make the decision as to whether or not to attack based upon if I THOUGHT it would increase terrorism elsewhere, as that is mere speculation. NOW THATS A TIME WHEN ONE MANS OPINION IS AS VALID AS ANOTHERS, NOT WHEN CHILDREN ARE BEING KILLED.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

1. We don't target the civilian population. Thats why when they get hurt its unfortunate but thats the definition of collateral damage. The only way for civilians to not get hurt in a war is for there to be no war.

2. Ultimately, i doubt threatening a Muslims child with death would do anything. They don't have a fear of death and i think they instill this fear into their families from a young age. Personally i would use the strategy of dipping them in pigs blood or throwing a Koran in a toilet as a more effective "torture" for these primitve morons. But you cant leave ANY option off the table when it comes to breaking these people.

Nice link.
I was thinking about that as I read his post also.
What is mind numbing, is the same liberals who are apologists for terrorists, calling them insurgents and excusing the rearing of children with masks and rifles due to the differences in culture, and we must simply understand, they are the same ones who SCREAM if you spank your children. Or heaven forbid, have a movie with violence in it.

 

[insein]

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/10/21/1098316785885.html

They're so cute with their little masks and Ak-47's. They grow up so young these days.