Are you willing to help society out in this manner?

[JBeukema]

Innocent until proven guilty is one of the core ideals of a Western liberal democracy.

That may be, but it is not a core ideal that I agree with for the most part.

Think about your weekend. How much of your time this weekend could you not account for if necessary? I spent most of my weekend either at the gym or cleaning, re-organizing, packing, and moving things out of the attic of the building I live in. Through phone records, gate codes, security cameras, entry codes for buildings, the gym, etc... I could probably account for my whereabouts, roughly 85% of my waking hours this past weekend. Through eye-witness testimony I can account for the other 15%, and can confirm the other 85%. It shouldn't be that difficult to prove you weren't at a crime scene, if you really weren't there.

Tell that to the guy sent to death row for a crime commited while he was already in custody

Penn and Teller interviewed him. The video is in my first response on page one.

 

[JBeukema]

No one has to prove their innocence in the USA.

Which is one of the problems with our system so far as I'm concerned.

Please tell me you're just trolling at this point

 

[JBeukema]

If a single innocent person is killed by the State and killing an innocent man is murder, we are all murderers who deserve the death penalty.

 

[JBeukema]

If nothing else, I could have proven that I was still at my office an hour earlier when the store had been robbed.

Means nothing.

The video I posted tells the story who was in jail when the crime was committed. Even that wasn't enough to prove he hadn't the opportunity and couldn't have committed the crime.

He spent years on death row waiting for a new trial- even after the first was thrown out.

And we're to trust this system to make the decision to kill someone?

 

[JBeukema]

See so you know what I'm talking about, had you been an asian female you would have had a really difficult evening.

Probably. At least until I provided the names and phone numbers of the 15-20 people I worked with who would have confirmed that I had been sitting at my desk in an office in a totally different part of town when the robbery occured.

If being in custody isn't a good enough alibi, you think your coworkers' story means jack shit to a DA who needs a conviction?

 

[JBeukema]

Of course there's another reason for the death penalty: Justice. Here's a sad case:

Death Row Killer Outlives Victim's Heartbroken Dad Who Sought Justice for 27 Years

Vengeance =/= justice

An eye for an eye, my friend, leaves the whole world blind

 

[xsited1]

I am not opposed to the death penalty and never claimed to be.

But one innocent life stolen is too many.

The question presented in the OP was if you would be willing to be one of those.

Immie

There are plenty of people willing to die for the good of society. You're taking an extreme example, but okay.

There are truly plenty of people willing to die for the good of society. A rather large count of them are currently in Afghanistan and Iraq with even more spread out throughout the U.S. and other military bases.

How extreme do you think it is? We might think, 23 people out of 330 million is not a big deal but then we have not had 330 million people in this nation until recently. What was the average population from 1900 to 1987? But even that is not the point, one should look at the population on death row, right?

Twenty three innocent people were allegedly executed between 1/1/1900 and 11/1987. How many total people were executed in that time?

I'm looking for that now, here is something from 1976 on:

Executions by Year | Death Penalty Information Center

This one goes from 1930 and shows 4,863 since that time.

Number of Persons Executed by Jurisdiction, 1930–2008 — Infoplease.com

I'm going to stop searching now, but if we are talking like something like 23 innocent people out of 5000 +/- it puts a different perspective on things as compared to 23 out of 330 million.

Executions by Year | Death Penalty Information Center

Immie

Of course there were innocent people executed in the past. Shall we go back to the Salem Witch Trials of 1692? Each year it seems to get better. We must ensure that this trend continues and at the same time make sure that justice is served. It's always a work in progress.

 

[PixieStix]

It's time that we faced the fact that the death penalty is not a deterrent. It is the ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime. We should use it... but we should use it sparingly and with great care.

Have you ever noticed that many of the worst criminals tend to go to states that have the death penalty? Florida, Texas, Ohio ect... Some of the most infamous serial killers seem to gravitate to those states.

 

[Immanuel]

There are plenty of people willing to die for the good of society. You're taking an extreme example, but okay.

There are truly plenty of people willing to die for the good of society. A rather large count of them are currently in Afghanistan and Iraq with even more spread out throughout the U.S. and other military bases.

How extreme do you think it is? We might think, 23 people out of 330 million is not a big deal but then we have not had 330 million people in this nation until recently. What was the average population from 1900 to 1987? But even that is not the point, one should look at the population on death row, right?

Twenty three innocent people were allegedly executed between 1/1/1900 and 11/1987. How many total people were executed in that time?

I'm looking for that now, here is something from 1976 on:

Executions by Year | Death Penalty Information Center

This one goes from 1930 and shows 4,863 since that time.

Number of Persons Executed by Jurisdiction, 1930–2008 — Infoplease.com

I'm going to stop searching now, but if we are talking like something like 23 innocent people out of 5000 +/- it puts a different perspective on things as compared to 23 out of 330 million.

Executions by Year | Death Penalty Information Center

Immie

Of course there were innocent people executed in the past. Shall we go back to the Salem Witch Trials of 1692? Each year it seems to get better. We must ensure that this trend continues and at the same time make sure that justice is served. It's always a work in progress.

It is strange that you would mention the Salem Witch Trials and I had not thought of those.

1) The Salem Witch Trials were not in my opinion governmental executions for crimes they were much more on the realm of religious murders much like the Spanish Inquisition. Both are parts of the Christian heritage that I literally despise, but cannot deny.

2) I'm not advocating the end of the death penalty in this thread or the other one at all. Although, I might advocate some kind of a better review process and maybe something beyond the standard appeals that we seem to have. It seems that new evidence may be ignored whenever it comes up and that seems to be a problem, but then there are so many appeals that it literally gets ridiculous. But, I don't think the appearance of new evidence should be denied simply because of procedures either.

By the way, an excellent fictional book about this very thing is The Confession by John Grisham. I read it about four months ago and yes, some of my concern comes from that particular book.

Immie

 

[Grace]

It's time that we faced the fact that the death penalty is not a deterrent. It is the ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime. We should use it... but we should use it sparingly and with great care.

Have you ever noticed that many of the worst criminals tend to go to states that have the death penalty? Florida, Texas, Ohio ect... Some of the most infamous serial killers seem to gravitate to those states.

Subconscious death wish on the killers part?

 

[JBeukema]

It's time that we faced the fact that the death penalty is not a deterrent. It is the ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime. We should use it... but we should use it sparingly and with great care.

Have you ever noticed that many of the worst criminals tend to go to states that have the death penalty? Florida, Texas, Ohio ect... Some of the most infamous serial killers seem to gravitate to those states.

Subconscious death wish on the killers part?

Maybe some of the sociological factors that drive th collective to kill are the same as or correlate with those factors that drive individuals to kill?

 

[PixieStix]

Have you ever noticed that many of the worst criminals tend to go to states that have the death penalty? Florida, Texas, Ohio ect... Some of the most infamous serial killers seem to gravitate to those states.

Subconscious death wish on the killers part?

Maybe some of the sociological factors that drive to collective to kill are the same as or correlate with those factors that drive individuals to kill?

My thoughts exactly, or maybe they get a thrill out of trying to out maneuver the authorities?

Either way,I just cannot reconcile my faith nor my conscience with the death penalty. Seeing as unfair the justice system is these days

 

[Anachronism]

Well, thank goodness our conservative friends don't have to be bothered by such legal technicalities.

George, given our way there wouldn't be many of those legal technicalities. We're more interested in JUSTICE than whether someone got read their rights (which they should already know) or whether the clerk put the wrong address on the search warrant. We're more interested in finding the bad people and putting them in jail, or executing them.

That's not how it's supposed to work

Which is one of the problems with our system in many ways.

Please tell me you're just trolling at this point

I don't have a sense of humor and I definitely do not have the time, energy, or imagination to "troll".

And we're to trust this system to make the decision to kill someone?

I don't trust this system at all. Having sat on a jury for a DUI and Reckless Driving case 7 years ago I have absolutely ZERO faith in this system.

 

[Cuyo]

Are you willing to help society in this manner?

Politicalchic has avoided this question so I ask all of you.

Politicalchic has made the statement in another thread (I will link to it later) that it helps society to let an innocent person be executed because (I am reading into her statement here) the death penalty acts as a deterrent to future crimes.

So, I ask this question of you:

Are you willing to be executed for a crime you did not commit in order to better society?

Simple question with a yes or no answer. But, please feel free to elaborate on your answer in this thread.

Link to thread

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...life-and-pro-death-penalty-5.html#post3495010

Thank you all,

Immie

You may officially label me a selfish prick.

 

[JBeukema]

That's not how it's supposed to work

Which is one of the problems with our system in many ways.

I don't trust this system at all

Preferring a system that demands you prove your innocence?


fly to iran:tickets to iran,discount fares to iran,Europe and MIddle East.

 

[Ravi]

Can I volunteer Tank to help out society, though?

I'm still chuckling over this. Maybe Immie should take a poll on who we would want to nominate to help society.

 

[Immanuel]

Are you willing to help society in this manner?

Politicalchic has avoided this question so I ask all of you.

Politicalchic has made the statement in another thread (I will link to it later) that it helps society to let an innocent person be executed because (I am reading into her statement here) the death penalty acts as a deterrent to future crimes.

So, I ask this question of you:

Are you willing to be executed for a crime you did not commit in order to better society?

Simple question with a yes or no answer. But, please feel free to elaborate on your answer in this thread.

Link to thread

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...life-and-pro-death-penalty-5.html#post3495010

Thank you all,

Immie

You may officially label me a selfish prick.

Yeah? Well, if you are at the moment there are 10 others of us who are just as much so. Me included.

Immie

 

[xsited1]

There are truly plenty of people willing to die for the good of society. A rather large count of them are currently in Afghanistan and Iraq with even more spread out throughout the U.S. and other military bases.

How extreme do you think it is? We might think, 23 people out of 330 million is not a big deal but then we have not had 330 million people in this nation until recently. What was the average population from 1900 to 1987? But even that is not the point, one should look at the population on death row, right?

Twenty three innocent people were allegedly executed between 1/1/1900 and 11/1987. How many total people were executed in that time?

I'm looking for that now, here is something from 1976 on:

Executions by Year | Death Penalty Information Center

This one goes from 1930 and shows 4,863 since that time.

Number of Persons Executed by Jurisdiction, 1930–2008 — Infoplease.com

I'm going to stop searching now, but if we are talking like something like 23 innocent people out of 5000 +/- it puts a different perspective on things as compared to 23 out of 330 million.

Executions by Year | Death Penalty Information Center

Immie

Of course there were innocent people executed in the past. Shall we go back to the Salem Witch Trials of 1692? Each year it seems to get better. We must ensure that this trend continues and at the same time make sure that justice is served. It's always a work in progress.

It is strange that you would mention the Salem Witch Trials and I had not thought of those.

1) The Salem Witch Trials were not in my opinion governmental executions for crimes they were much more on the realm of religious murders much like the Spanish Inquisition. Both are parts of the Christian heritage that I literally despise, but cannot deny.

2) I'm not advocating the end of the death penalty in this thread or the other one at all. Although, I might advocate some kind of a better review process and maybe something beyond the standard appeals that we seem to have. It seems that new evidence may be ignored whenever it comes up and that seems to be a problem, but then there are so many appeals that it literally gets ridiculous. But, I don't think the appearance of new evidence should be denied simply because of procedures either.

By the way, an excellent fictional book about this very thing is The Confession by John Grisham. I read it about four months ago and yes, some of my concern comes from that particular book.

Immie

Better review process: Agreed!

BTW, you might find this interesting:

Few Americans know that there is a unique jury selection procedure for capital cases, known as "death qualification." Any citizen with qualms about inflicting death can be disqualified from jury duty.

Are You "Death Qualified"? | Clay Conrad | Cato Institute: Daily Commentary

The article is 11 years old so it may not be valid today. Perhaps a criminal attorney can shed some light on it.

 

[Immanuel]

Can I volunteer Tank to help out society, though?

I'm still chuckling over this. Maybe Immie should take a poll on who we would want to nominate to help society.

No frigging way!! With as many nasty pm comments I am starting to accumulate, y'all are likely to vote for me!!!

Well, nasty may give a wrong impression... maybe I should just say po'd.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Of course there were innocent people executed in the past. Shall we go back to the Salem Witch Trials of 1692? Each year it seems to get better. We must ensure that this trend continues and at the same time make sure that justice is served. It's always a work in progress.

It is strange that you would mention the Salem Witch Trials and I had not thought of those.

1) The Salem Witch Trials were not in my opinion governmental executions for crimes they were much more on the realm of religious murders much like the Spanish Inquisition. Both are parts of the Christian heritage that I literally despise, but cannot deny.

2) I'm not advocating the end of the death penalty in this thread or the other one at all. Although, I might advocate some kind of a better review process and maybe something beyond the standard appeals that we seem to have. It seems that new evidence may be ignored whenever it comes up and that seems to be a problem, but then there are so many appeals that it literally gets ridiculous. But, I don't think the appearance of new evidence should be denied simply because of procedures either.

By the way, an excellent fictional book about this very thing is The Confession by John Grisham. I read it about four months ago and yes, some of my concern comes from that particular book.

Immie

Better review process: Agreed!

BTW, you might find this interesting:

Few Americans know that there is a unique jury selection procedure for capital cases, known as "death qualification." Any citizen with qualms about inflicting death can be disqualified from jury duty.

Are You "Death Qualified"? | Clay Conrad | Cato Institute: Daily Commentary

The article is 11 years old so it may not be valid today. Perhaps a criminal attorney can shed some light on it.

I have not read the article, but I have known that in cases where the death penalty is a possibility that they ask you if you have any qualms about it and that you could be automatically disqualified from that jury if you stated that yes you did. Which makes things worse, because then those who would save the life of the innocent man are not there to protect it.

Immie