Are You Saved By Faith....Or By Works

[TrinityPower]

I've read the bible from cover to cover. I've read the new testament at least ten times with concordances close by for additional opinions. While I was still in my 20's I had most of it committed to memory...chapter and verse. Without a doubt the most confusing, contradictory piece of writing in the history of the world. They couldn't even decide what it takes to accomplish what is supposed to be the most important decision a human will ever make that being what will determine eternal fate:

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

James 2
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[a] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Then there's the baptism thing. Some churches require no ritual, some sprinkle and the Primitive Baptist believe that if one is never submerged completely their soul is doomed to eternal flames and a pit of molten brimstone.

There are hundreds of contradictions in what might be considered some of the most important issues in the bible. Maybe that's why when the south sea islands are included there are more than 4000 ancient gods being worshipped. That might be when Christianity and it's conventions, denominations, sects, cults, sub cults, etc. are added there are more than 44,000 other ways to believe.

If the all powerful, all knowing, supreme god of the universe dropped off the only keys to the kingdom to a gang of ignorant primitives who believed in witchcraft and thought the earth was flat, he has one helluva sense of humor.

It's easy. Faith, not works will get you into heaven. Works are nice and will get you a cookie or two, but they are a display of your faith. So to make it easy for you. first comes faith, and through that you will have works. So most people have both, but if you only have one, pick faith.

It is not confusing. Look at the ministry of Jesus. What did he always do? He often prayed first then a work happened. There are other examples given that he told someone your faith has made you whole. When you prat for someone both of you put your faith together for a work to take place. If one in his heart does not believe it has not the power. The people of Jesus own town said oh thats just the carpenters son and did not take his message in so because they did not believe there were no great works done there. Faith can only create works when the muscle of faith is put to work.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Your problem here is that you're being too stupid to follow simple reasoning. James doesn't say works itself is necessary. He says there's no faith without works, not because faith comes from works, but because works comes from faith.

This passage emphatically does not mean that works come from faith. This passage means that sitting around and praying for your needs to be met isn't going to meet your needs. . . you also need to do what's in -your- power to provide those needs, otherwise your faith is for naught. Read the scripture again, it's not hard to follow. It's essentially another way of saying God helps those who help themselves, and I'm pretty sure the basis for that sentiment.

I rarely find myself on this particular end of the Christian arguments, but this particular passage is pure wisdom. Wish in one hand, shit in the other, tell me which one fills up first.

It also doesn't necessarily contradict the passage about being saved through faith. The argument could be made that the supporting example about a brother or sister poorly clothed and hungry was meant to be taken literally and thus isn't pertaining to eternal salvation which, according to the first passage, can only be achieved through faith.

I'm kinda tripping out that there isn't a Christian in here that shares that interpretation. As a kid, I remember having it explained to me that way by several evangelical pastors and my devout catholic uncle, and as an adult it definitely seems to make more sense when considering the supporting example than any of the name-it-and-claim-it-Christianity explanations I'm seeing here. Holy shit Christians have gotten lazy since I stopped going to church. "It means that if I have enough faith, works will come, and I can just sit on my ass and pray and pray and pray that mountain into the sea!" Good lord, you wanna talk about delusions of witchcraft. . .

 

[TrinityPower]

Your problem here is that you're being too stupid to follow simple reasoning. James doesn't say works itself is necessary. He says there's no faith without works, not because faith comes from works, but because works comes from faith.

This passage emphatically does not mean that works come from faith. This passage means that sitting around and praying for your needs to be met isn't going to meet your needs. . . you also need to do what's in -your- power to provide those needs, otherwise your faith is for naught. Read the scripture again, it's not hard to follow. It's essentially another way of saying God helps those who help themselves, and I'm pretty sure the basis for that sentiment.

I rarely find myself on this particular end of the Christian arguments, but this particular passage is pure wisdom. Wish in one hand, shit in the other, tell me which one fills up first.

It also doesn't necessarily contradict the passage about being saved through faith. The argument could be made that the supporting example about a brother or sister poorly clothed and hungry was meant to be taken literally and thus isn't pertaining to eternal salvation which, according to the first passage, can only be achieved through faith.

I'm kinda tripping out that there isn't a Christian in here that shares that interpretation. As a kid, I remember having it explained to me that way by several evangelical pastors and my devout catholic uncle, and as an adult it definitely seems to make more sense when considering the supporting example than any of the name-it-and-claim-it-Christianity explanations I'm seeing here. Holy shit Christians have gotten lazy since I stopped going to church. "It means that if I have enough faith, works will come, and I can just sit on my ass and pray and pray and pray that mountain into the sea!" Good lord, you wanna talk about delusions of witchcraft. . .

I agree with you that if it is within your power to do your part and do what you can. For example...if a couple is praying and using their faith asking for a baby and they...er...don't do their part to make that happen well gee. But Abraham was a good example of this too. He was aged and his body the bible said was dead...not Viagra plants around back then you know. God promised him a son which meant he would have to do his part to create him but let's face it...you can't shoot pool with a rope right? So something supernatural had to take place for this...er...raising of the staff to occur. What I am trying to explain is that when you can do your part do so but some things asked for you are not able to do that beforehand and that is what is really meant by using your faith and works will follow....if you want to call it blab it and grab it then do so but I do happen to believe in claiming my blessing before it is manifest which is what Abraham did THEN it occurred not it occurred then he gave thanks. Jesus illustrated this concept so many times in his ministry yet many still do not understand. When Jesus healed someone he called them whole. Not healed...whole. Whole means no lack so not only was the affliction they had fixed but everything was made whole be it their finances healing in another place their relationship with someone etc. I do believe in claiming promises in scripture and I have experienced an outpouring of supernatural blessing from it. I have used wisdom to achieve thing also claiming the scripture that I have been given a sound mind and ask for wisdom in a given situation. If you happen to be calling it blab it and grab it then that's fine but I feel I am using the wisdom god gave me and the tools to gain that which he promised in his word I can have