Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Cards?

[NuclearWinter]

Home RFID networks will allow family members to remotely track you during your "golden years," or times of incompetence, real or otherwise. Doors can remain bolted to keep you from wandering, toilets can monitor your bowel habits and transmit data to distant physicians, and databases can sense your state of mind. It's all under development and headed your way.

But chipping inanimate objects is just the start. The endpoint is a form of RFID that can be injected into flesh. Pets and livestock are already being chipped, and there are those who believe humans should be next. Incredibly, bars have begun implanting their patrons with glass-encapsulated RFID tags that can be used to pay for drinks. This application startles many Christians who have likened payment applications of RFID to biblical predictions about the Mark of the Beast, a number the book of Revelation says will be needed to buy or sell in the "end times."

While some of these applications are slated for our future, others are already here, right now—and they're spreading. Wal-Mart has mandated that its top one hundred suppliers affix RFID tags to crates and pallets being shipped to selected warehouses. Analysts estimate this one initiative alone has already driven close to $250 million worth of investment in the technology. Other retailers such as Albertsons, Target, and Best Buy have followed suit with mandates of their own. According to one industry analyst, there are now sixty thousand companies operating under RFID mandates and scrambling to get with the spychip program as quickly as possible.

Adding fuel to the fire, the Department of Defense is also requiring suppliers to use RFID. In fact, government cheerleaders can't fall over themselves fast enough to support the technology. The Department of Homeland Security is testing the use of RFID in visas, and the Social Security Administration is using spychips to track citizen files. Not to be outdone, the Food and Drug Administration wants RFID on all prescription drugs, and the makers of Oxycontin and Viagra have already begun to comply. The FDA has also approved the use of subcutaneous RFID implants for managing patient medical records the same implants being used to track bar patrons.

You may have already brought a spychip home with you. If you own a toll transponder or a Mobil Speedpass, you're interacting with RFID every time you use it. And if you bought Procter & Gamble's Lipfinity lipstick at a Wal-Mart in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma, between March and June of 2003, you could have brought home a live RFID chip in the product packaging and unknowingly starred in a video, too!

P&G is not the only company that's tested spychips on unwitting consumers. Gillette was also caught tagging packages of Mach3 razor blades with some of the 500 million (that's half a billion!) RFID chips it put on order in early 2003. There's also evidence to suggest that other everyday products like Pantene Shampoo, Purina Dog Chow, and Huggies baby wipes may have been tagged with RFID chips and sold to unsuspecting consumers.

 

[NuclearWinter]

Why would anyone want to keep such close track on everyday objects? The answer is simple. Businesses want the technology to give them complete visibility of their products at all times. Having this real-time knowledge would allow them to keep products on store shelves and know precisely what's in their warehouses. They also believe it could help them fight theft and counterfeiting. Theoretically, it could even eliminate the checkstand, since doorways could scan your purchases automatically when you leave the store and charge them to an RFID-based account.

While some of these goals may sound appealing, the problem is what happens when spychipped products leave the store with us and find their way into other areas of our lives.

The seamy details that have been discovered make the spychipped future look more like the ending scene of a gut-wrenching Outer Limits episode.

 

[NuclearWinter]

One of the consumer privacy nightmares is for those little anti-theft tags (known in the industry as "EAS" tags) to someday be combined with individually trackable RFID chips and slipped into consumer products.

An article in the RFID Journal (posted below), reveals that Checkpoint Systems has actually developed a product tag that combines anti-theft and RFID tracking capabilities. The tags were at the RFID Journal Live! Conference in Orlando, Florida. What's more, Sensormatic, Checkpoint's only serious competitor, is running a whole conference session to describe the benefits of using this combined tracking technology.

This is beyond a doubt one of the most important and dangerous developments in the consumer privacy arena today. It means consumers may soon be buying, wearing, and carrying products tagged with RFID at the item level, because Checkpoint and Sensormatic specialize in hiding anti-theft tags deep inside of products, then distributing those products to nearly a million retail locations worldwide.

Now they want to do the same thing with RFID spychips. If they are not stopped, Checkpoint and Sensormatic will soon be hiding these dual-use tracking devices in your belongings, where they will be able to silently and secretly transmit information about you to marketers, criminals, and Big Brother.

This will be a consumer privacy nightmare and no one will even know it's happening. That's because industry lobbyists have prevented RFID labeling legislation from passing anywhere in the nation. There is no requirement that retailers or manufacturers tell us when they're hiding RFID tags in our clothes, shoes, books, or anything else.

Our only protection against this threat is the strength of our voices and the power of our protests.

Here is a list of the companies that have joined the RFID journal conferences:

Academy Sports & Outdoors
Albertsons
The ALDO Group
Anheuser-Busch
Best Buy
Blockbuster
Blommer Chocolate
Brass Eagle
CDW Corp.
Dreyer's Grand Ice Cream
Electrolux
Energizer Battery
Fuji Photo Film USA
The Gap
General Mills
Gillette Company
Hampton Products
Hasbro
Hershey Foods
Hewlett Packard (HP)
Hunter Fan
Hy-Vee, Inc.
Jockey International
Johnson & Johnson
Johnsonville Sausage
Kellogg Co.
Kimberly-Clark
Limited Brands
L'Oreal USA
Loblaws
Louisville Bedding
Lowe's Companies
Luxottica Retail
Maidenform Worldwide
Mars
Marubeni America
Masterfoods USA
McIlhenny Co.
Meyer Corp.
Nestle USA
Newell Rubbermaid
OfficeMax
Pacific Cycle
Payless Shoe Source
Pharmavite
Procter & Gamble
S. C. Johnson
SAKS Inc.
Sara Lee Foods
Schick
Scott Paper Limited
Sears
Sears Canada
Sherwin-Williams
Storekraft
Stride Rite Corp.
Tanimura & Antle
Target Corp.
The Valvoline Co.
Unilever
Wal-Mart
Walgreens
Wm Wrigley Jr Co
Wegmans

To learn more about the conference, and to see a video on it, see: http://www.rfidjournalevents.com/live/

 

[NuclearWinter]

Write to as many of these companies as you can. Let them know how strongly you oppose RFID spychips. When you're done writing an email, call their customer service lines for good measure. Send a fax, write snail mail, send a singing telegram. But whatever you do, don't take this lying down. We need everyone we can to put a stop to this.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Ohh Look Nuclear running up his post count again.

 

[mattskramer]

One of the consumer privacy nightmares is for those little anti-theft tags (known in the industry as "EAS" tags) to someday be combined with individually trackable RFID chips and slipped into consumer products.

An article in the RFID Journal (posted below), reveals that Checkpoint Systems has actually developed a product tag that combines anti-theft and RFID tracking capabilities. The tags were at the RFID Journal Live! Conference in Orlando, Florida. What's more, Sensormatic, Checkpoint's only serious competitor, is running a whole conference session to describe the benefits of using this combined tracking technology.

This is beyond a doubt one of the most important and dangerous developments in the consumer privacy arena today. It means consumers may soon be buying, wearing, and carrying products tagged with RFID at the item level, because Checkpoint and Sensormatic specialize in hiding anti-theft tags deep inside of products, then distributing those products to nearly a million retail locations worldwide.

Now they want to do the same thing with RFID spychips. If they are not stopped, Checkpoint and Sensormatic will soon be hiding these dual-use tracking devices in your belongings, where they will be able to silently and secretly transmit information about you to marketers, criminals, and Big Brother.

This will be a consumer privacy nightmare and no one will even know it's happening. That's because industry lobbyists have prevented RFID labeling legislation from passing anywhere in the nation. There is no requirement that retailers or manufacturers tell us when they're hiding RFID tags in our clothes, shoes, books, or anything else.

Our only protection against this threat is the strength of our voices and the power of our protests.

Here is a list of the companies that have joined the RFID journal conferences:

Academy Sports & Outdoors
Albertsons
The ALDO Group
Anheuser-Busch
Best Buy
Blockbuster
Blommer Chocolate
Brass Eagle
CDW Corp.
Dreyer's Grand Ice Cream
Electrolux
Energizer Battery
Fuji Photo Film USA
The Gap
General Mills
Gillette Company
Hampton Products
Hasbro
Hershey Foods
Hewlett Packard (HP)
Hunter Fan
Hy-Vee, Inc.
Jockey International
Johnson & Johnson
Johnsonville Sausage
Kellogg Co.
Kimberly-Clark
Limited Brands
L'Oreal USA
Loblaws
Louisville Bedding
Lowe's Companies
Luxottica Retail
Maidenform Worldwide
Mars
Marubeni America
Masterfoods USA
McIlhenny Co.
Meyer Corp.
Nestle USA
Newell Rubbermaid
OfficeMax
Pacific Cycle
Payless Shoe Source
Pharmavite
Procter & Gamble
S. C. Johnson
SAKS Inc.
Sara Lee Foods
Schick
Scott Paper Limited
Sears
Sears Canada
Sherwin-Williams
Storekraft
Stride Rite Corp.
Tanimura & Antle
Target Corp.
The Valvoline Co.
Unilever
Wal-Mart
Walgreens
Wm Wrigley Jr Co
Wegmans

To learn more about the conference, and to see a video on it, see: http://www.rfidjournalevents.com/live/

I’m mildly curious about it but I am not that concerned. So people know what I buy? So what? Sometimes I like the fact that companies know what I buy. Sometimes such companies will send me email offering me other things that I might be interested in. Some companies might even sell my information to other businesses. So what? If I get junk mail, I can simply hit the “delete” key. If the junk mail keeps coming from a business that bought my email address, I can block the sender within my email program. Once in a great while, I am actually sent information and product advertisements for products that I become interested in. Yeah for the free market and the new technology!

I bought a pizza from Pizza Hut for lunch. Now, go ahead and let people know. Pizza Hut is not on your list. Shucks!!

 

[Helios]

I’m mildly curious about it but I am not that concerned. So people know what I buy? So what? Sometimes I like the fact that companies know what I buy. Sometimes such companies will send me email offering me other things that I might be interested in. Some companies might even sell my information to other businesses. So what? If I get junk mail, I can simply hit the “delete” key. If the junk mail keeps coming from a business that bought my email address, I can block the sender within my email program. Once in a great while, I am actually sent information and product advertisements for products that I become interested in. Yeah for the free market and the new technology!

I bought a pizza from Pizza Hut for lunch. Now, go ahead and let people know. Pizza Hut is not on your list. Shucks!!

I think you underestimate the devious intentions of the people who will get a hold of the information you refer to. If you give a powerful entity powerful information, they will abuse it. Thus, the government and large corporations will abuse the National ID Cards. It is a system prone to such abuse, and it is prone because that's exactly how they designed it.

 

[NuclearWinter]

I think you underestimate the devious intentions of the people who will get a hold of the information you refer to. If you give a powerful entity powerful information, they will abuse it. Thus, the government and large corporations will abuse the National ID Cards. It is a system prone to such abuse, and it is prone because that's exactly how they designed it.

Couldn't have said it better Helios.

 

[NuclearWinter]

The Real ID Act, which is a law signed by President Bush in May 2005, and, if it is accepted by and carried out by the states, would turn state drivers licenses into a genuine national identity card and impose numerous new burdens on taxpayers, citizens, immigrants, and state governments.

Real ID would force the states to standardize drivers licenses cards across the nation into a single national identity card and database. It does this by stipulating that state drivers licenses and state ID cards will not be accepted for federal purposes including boarding an aircraft or entering a federal facility unless they meet all of the laws numerous conditions, which include:

Standardized data elements and security features on the IDs.

A machine readable zone that will allow for the easy capture of all the data on the ID by stores or anyone else with a reader.

The construction of a 50-state, interlinked database making all the information in each persons file available to all the other states and to the federal government.

A requirement that states verify the issuance, validity and completeness of every document presented at motor vehicles agencies (usually called DMVs) as part of an application for a Real ID card.

 

[NuclearWinter]

Whats Wrong With Real ID


Its a national identity system. The standardized national drivers licenses created by Real ID would become a key part of a system of identity papers, databases, status and identity checks and access control points an internal passport that will increasingly be used to track and control individuals movements and activities.

Will not be effective against terrorism. The fact is, identity-based security is not an effective way to stop terrorism. ID documents do not reveal anything about evil intent and even if they did, determined terrorists will always be able to obtain fraudulent documents (either counterfeit or real documents bought from corrupt officials).

Will be a nightmare for state governments. Real ID requires state governments to remake their drivers licenses, restructure many of their computer databases and other systems, create an extensive new document-storage system, and perhaps most difficult of all verify the issuance, validity and completeness of every document presented at DMVs. See Real Burdens.

Will mean higher fees, long lines, and bureaucratic nightmares for individuals. Because Congress ordered but did not pay for these mandates, which will cost states billions of dollars, fees on individuals applying for drivers licenses will inevitably rise, perhaps steeply. Individuals are also likely to confront slower service, longer lines, and frequent bureaucratic snafus in obtaining these ID cards. Many unlucky individuals will find themselves caught in a bureaucratic nightmare as they run up against the complexities of this law.

Increased security and ID-theft risks. The creation of a single interlinked database as well as the requirement that each DMV store copies of every birth certificate and other documents presented to it will create a one-stop shop for identity thieves.

Will be exploited by the private sector to invade privacy. Real ID would make it easy for anybody in private industry to snap up the data on these IDs. Already, bars often swipe licenses to collect personal data on customers but that will prove to be just the tip of the iceberg as every convenience store learns to grab that data and sell it to data companies for a dime.

Will expand over time. The Real ID database will inevitably, over time, become the repository for more and more data on individuals, and will be drawn on for an ever-wider set of purposes. Its standardized machine-readable interface will drive its integration into an ever-growing network of identity checks and access control points each of which will create new data trails that will in turn be linked to that central database or its private-sector shadow equivalent.

 

[NuclearWinter]

The Real ID Act has been passed by Congress and signed into law by President Bush. But its acceptance in the states is far from assured. And the states have to come into compliance, or their citizens drivers licenses will eventually no longer be accepted for federal purposes. But the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) must first complete work creating regulations that spell out in more detail exactly what the states must do to make compliant IDs.

The Act was not passed through a true democratic process. It was slipped through Congress in May 2005 in a must-pass Iraq War/Tsunami relief supplemental bill, as part of a deal reached between the powerful Rep. James Sensenbrenner (R, Wis.) and the Congressional leadership. There was no time for sufficient consideration of the Act and its sweeping implications; in the Senate, there was not even a single hearing held on the Act. The result is that Real ID lacks the legitimacy that comes from having been studied, debated, considered, and directly voted upon by Americans elected representatives.

The game is not over, it has just moved into the states. Although the Act was passed by Congress, Real ID cannot go into effect without a multitude of actions in the states. State legislatures must appropriate money and, in most cases, change state laws. State executives must remake or build anew all the administrative machinery required to comply with the Acts numerous mandates. And a lot of people at the state level do not like what they see.

Broad interest-group opposition. Opponents range from privacy and civil liberties organizations like the ACLU to conservative groups to immigration groups.

Its a bad Act. Most fundamentally, the Real ID Act has sparked opposition because it would not be good for our country.

The opposition to Real ID is broad and deep, and despite its passage by Congress, there remains an excellent chance that it will be reversed in part or in whole.

 

[NuclearWinter]

Simply put, Real ID would offer significant costs and disadvantages without any corresponding advantages:

By definitively turning drivers licenses into a form of national identity documents, Real ID would have a tremendously destructive impact on privacy.

The Act would impose significant administrative burdens and expenses on state governments, and would mean higher fees, longer lines, repeat visits to the DMV, and bureaucratic nightmares for individuals.

Yet, it would not be effective at increasing security against terrorism or bring any other benefits which would justify those costs.

 

[mattskramer]

I think you underestimate the devious intentions of the people who will get a hold of the information you refer to. If you give a powerful entity powerful information, they will abuse it. Thus, the government and large corporations will abuse the National ID Cards. It is a system prone to such abuse, and it is prone because that's exactly how they designed it.

Could you be more specific with perhaps some detailed scenarios? I am ambivalent about it. I think that people are turning this mole hill into a mountain. I’ve never seen such paranoia.

 

[Helios]

Could you be more specific with perhaps some detailed scenarios? I am ambivalent about it. I think that people are turning this mole hill into a mountain. I’ve never seen such paranoia.

If you want a detailed scenario, read 1984 by George Orwell.

 

[mattskramer]

If you want a detailed scenario, read 1984 by George Orwell.

I did. It is an imaginative fictional book. I do think that we should use caution (Be reasonably cautious.) but I don’t fully believe that the slippery slope always applies. It all comes down to a cost-benefit analysis. Is the benefit of having a hard-to-forge informative ID card worth what little (if any) abuse might result? Also keep in mind that if big brother gets too powerful, the citizens will vote out repressive authoritarians and vote in more libertarians in the next election.

 

[Helios]

I did. It is an imaginative fictional book. I do think that we should use caution (Be reasonably cautious.) but I don’t fully believe that the slippery slope always applies.

It's not meant to be an imaginative fictional book. It's meant to be a warning, a warning that has gone completely unheeded. We get closer to living in an Orwellian world every day. Examples: Real ID, Patriot Act, MCA

It all comes down to a cost-benefit analysis. Is the benefit of having a hard-to-forge informative ID card worth what little (if any) abuse might result?

For the government, of course it's worth it. They don't have to pay a cent for it, the Real ID act is an unfunded mandate bill, meaning the states pay for all the costs of implementation.

Also keep in mind that if big brother gets too powerful, the citizens will vote out repressive authoritarians and vote in more libertarians in the next election.

You act like your vote still means anything in this country. With the widespread voter fraud and rigged elections, you have no choice. None. For the sake of argument, let's say there is already a repressive authoritarian regime in place. Ron Paul would be the one to dismantle it, but he's getting fucked backwards by the media, the polls, and the voting process. And no one seems to notice, no one seems to care.

 

[mattskramer]

It's not meant to be an imaginative fictional book. It's meant to be a warning, a warning that has gone completely unheeded. We get closer to living in an Orwellian world every day. Examples: Real ID, Patriot Act, MCA

It has not gone completely unheeded. There is an abundance of organizations, interest groups, and clubs focused on preserving freedom. Consider the American Civil Liberties Union, Electronic Frontier Foundation, Electronic Privacy Information Center, Privacy International, and the International Association of Privacy Professionals.

Yes, you provided some examples in which our privacy has been reduced. I still contend that if the government goes too far in eroding our privacy, we will vote for people to restore our privacy.

For the government, of course it's worth it. They don't have to pay a cent for it, the Real ID act is an unfunded mandate bill, meaning the states pay for all the costs of implementation.

I mean that if the cost that the people incur outweighs the benefit that the people receive, then the people will speak up and change things.

Acts by congress very well may cost them things. It will cost them seats in congress after the next election.

You act like your vote still means anything in this country. With the widespread voter fraud and rigged elections, you have no choice. None. For the sake of argument, let's say there is already a repressive authoritarian regime in place. Ron Paul would be the one to dismantle it, but he's getting fucked backwards by the media, the polls, and the voting process. And no one seems to notice, no one seems to care.

There is vote fraud. I doubt that it is as big and wide-spread as disappointed voters contend. Regardless of that, if enough people speak out and vote, the voters can change things. “Independents” are often voted into office. If polls (exit and otherwise) show that 99 percent of the public voted for libertarian A but the election results show that 99 percent of the public voted for authoritarian B, then of course things will get done to correct it.

Are you in favor of government regulation of the media? Are you in favor of the “fairness doctrine”? So Paul is not getting as much coverage as you would like. If such is the case and you feel so concerned, write to interest groups, create a newsletter, support the “Ron Paul” for president” organizations, lead special interest groups and get the word out if no one will do it for you. Many options and possibilities are available.

I guess that what I’m saying, in summary, is that if enough people get concerned and take legal action, things get accomplished. For right now, I am a tiny bit concerned but not enough to get very involved.

 

[Helios]

It has not gone completely unheeded. There is an abundance of organizations, interest groups, and clubs focused on preserving freedom. Consider the American Civil Liberties Union, Electronic Frontier Foundation, Electronic Privacy Information Center, Privacy International, and the International Association of Privacy Professionals.

Given the seriousness of the Acts that have been passes against the People of this country, Orwell's warning can be considered ignored. None of the organizations you mentioned have been successful in reversing any legislation I mentioned, although I admit they are successful in changing details in unimportant bills. I'm talking about the fundamental civil rights violations that the government has imposed on all people living in the United States. They remain untouched and unrepealed.

Yes, you provided some examples in which our privacy has been reduced. I still contend that if the government goes too far in eroding our privacy, we will vote for people to restore our privacy.

Few people actually understands the depth of the evil that sits in our government. The same corporations that influence congress and the white house are in control of everything you see on TV. They own you, and people are too subdued and narrow minded to see the shackles. Stop looking at the shadows on the wall people.

I mean that if the cost that the people incur outweighs the benefit that the people receive, then the people will speak up and change things.

As I said, most people don't understand the inner workings of their government. Polls suggest that 45% of high school seniors didn't know the name of the current U.S. president in 2003. People are not interested in politics anymore, they would much rather watch their silly little TV shows, with fake people with big fake smiles and big fake tits. What makes you think these sheep are willing to do anything proactive to limit the government? They don't give a shit anymore man.

Acts by congress very well may cost them things. It will cost them seats in congress after the next election.

Nothing compared to the benefits the government reaps if it has everyone on an electronic leash.

There is vote fraud. I doubt that it is as big and wide-spread as disappointed voters contend.

It has nothing to do with disappointed voters getting angry and jealous. I know plenty of Hillary Clinton supporters who are outraged at the voter fraud. You see, there is still actually people in this country who care about the principles of democracy, whether or not they are reaping the benefits.

Regardless of that, if enough people speak out and vote, the voters can change things. “Independents” are often voted into office. If polls (exit and otherwise) show that 99 percent of the public voted for libertarian A but the election results show that 99 percent of the public voted for authoritarian B, then of course things will get done to correct it.

So you're saying if its not a 99/1 split, voting fraud isn't completely wrong? I beg to differ. If a candidate would have been in 2nd place and was instead thrown into 3rd, I believe that to be a GRIEVOUS OFFENSE against the principles of America, that would be considered treason.

Oh, and when's the last time an independent was president? Don't worry... I'll wait.

Are you in favor of government regulation of the media? Are you in favor of the “fairness doctrine”? So Paul is not getting as much coverage as you would like. If such is the case and you feel so concerned, write to interest groups, create a newsletter, support the “Ron Paul” for president” organizations, lead special interest groups and get the word out if no one will do it for you. Many options and possibilities are available.

I'm in favor of media controlled by the PEOPLE. Crazy, isn't it? That way everyone has an equal voice, and if you don't like whats out there, go ahead and publish your own newspaper. Freedom of speech isn't freedom of speech if you don't speak.

And don't patronize me about how to get involved in politics. I don't need to prove anything to you. I'm know I'm doing my part. Are you, citizen?

I guess that what I’m saying, in summary, is that if enough people get concerned and take legal action, things get accomplished. For right now, I am a tiny bit concerned but not enough to get very involved.

That's the problem. If you're only a "tiny bit concerned" about how the government is conducting itself, you are NOT PAYING ATTENTION, buddy.

See: Chinagate
See: Iraq War
See: North American Union

 

[mattskramer]

Given the seriousness of the Acts that have been passes against the People of this country, Orwell's warning can be considered ignored. None of the organizations you mentioned have been successful in reversing any legislation I mentioned, although I admit they are successful in changing details in unimportant bills. I'm talking about the fundamental civil rights violations that the government has imposed on all people living in the United States. They remain untouched and unrepealed.

The very notion that organizations exist is proof that Orwell’s warning has not been ignored. The bills that have been passed that have supposedly eroded some of our privacy simply have not done so at a serious enough extent to spark people into action.

Few people actually understands the depth of the evil that sits in our government. The same corporations that influence congress and the white house are in control of everything you see on TV. They own you, and people are too subdued and narrow minded to see the shackles. Stop looking at the shadows on the wall people.

I understand that media has influence. At the same time, I am an intelligent independent thinking person and don’t always believe what I am told. Actually, more often than not, when someone tells me something, I check it out and try to find information to the contrary. I am well aware of “independent” sources and will often look at things from different perspectives. I even read “Project Censored”.

http://www.projectcensored.org/resources/index.htm

Many people do seem to be asleep and will blindly follow and agree with what they are told. I am about as far from being one of those types of people as one can be. No one “owns” me. I see more than shadows. I look at things from many different perspectives.

As I said, most people don't understand the inner workings of their government. Polls suggest that 45% of high school seniors didn't know the name of the current U.S. president in 2003. People are not interested in politics anymore, they would much rather watch their silly little TV shows, with fake people with big fake smiles and big fake tits. What makes you think these sheep are willing to do anything proactive to limit the government? They don't give a shit anymore man.

Yes. That is quite a shame. I still think that if the government gets repressive enough, these sleeping sheep will wake up – though it might have to get pretty bad. Remember the disappointment that the public had towards the end of the Carter administration (the long gas lines, the high tax rate, etc.) People voted Republican. When people got tired of Bush Sr. they voted for Clinton. If we go too far one way, we will bounce back. Don’t you remember that Jesse Ventura (previously a bizarre professional wrestler) became the governor of Minnesota? He is from the Reform Party and Independence party. Ross Perot came in and shook up the electorate for a while.

So you're saying if its not a 99/1 split, voting fraud isn't completely wrong? I beg to differ. If a candidate would have been in 2nd place and was instead thrown into 3rd, I believe that to be a GRIEVOUS OFFENSE against the principles of America, that would be considered treason.

I was using such numbers as an exaggeration in order to make a point. I don’t like repeating myself so often but I’ll say it again. If enough people want change, then they will get change.

Oh, and when's the last time an independent was president? Don't worry... I'll wait.

You need not wait long. We have not had an independent as president though we have had an independent governor in Minnesota. Once in a while the independent people manage to get through.

I'm in favor of media controlled by the PEOPLE. Crazy, isn't it? That way everyone has an equal voice, and if you don't like whats out there, go ahead and publish your own newspaper. Freedom of speech isn't freedom of speech if you don't speak.

The media is ultimately controlled by the people. If you don’t like a station, change the channel or lead a boycott. If you think that ABC is too liberally biased, go to FOX. Get people together who think as you do and make your own station. I think that we are somewhat in agreement here.

And don't patronize me about how to get involved in politics. I don't need to prove anything to you. I'm know I'm doing my part. Are you, citizen?

Yes. I’m an honest, law abiding citizen. I vote. If I get concerned enough, I write letters to newspaper editors, call my congressmen, and do other activities too.

That's the problem. If you're only a "tiny bit concerned" about how the government is conducting itself, you are NOT PAYING ATTENTION, buddy.

See: Chinagate
See: Iraq War
See: North American Union

I am paying attention. I am familiar with such issues.

 

[Helios]

The very notion that organizations exist is proof that Orwell’s warning has not been ignored. The bills that have been passed that have supposedly eroded some of our privacy simply have not done so at a serious enough extent to spark people into action.

Like I continue to tell you: people are not aware of the extent their liberties have been destroyed. Without the writ of habeas corpus, the bill of rights doesn't mean shit. How do you have freedom of speech if you can be detained without counsel or appeal? You can disappear into nothingness, with no explanation. I dare say that's reminicent of Orwell's book.

I understand that media has influence. At the same time, I am an intelligent independent thinking person and don’t always believe what I am told. Actually, more often than not, when someone tells me something, I check it out and try to find information to the contrary. I am well aware of “independent” sources and will often look at things from different perspectives. I even read “Project Censored”.

http://www.projectcensored.org/resources/index.htm

That's good, I'm happy you are doing everything you can to inform yourself. Now, as for the other 295 million Americans... what are they doing to inform themselves. The average Joe off the street doesn't know shit about the government, much less specific issues.

Many people do seem to be asleep and will blindly follow and agree with what they are told. I am about as far from being one of those types of people as one can be. No one “owns” me. I see more than shadows. I look at things from many different perspectives.

Once again, you are in the minority there.

Yes. That is quite a shame. I still think that if the government gets repressive enough, these sleeping sheep will wake up – though it might have to get pretty bad. Remember the disappointment that the public had towards the end of the Carter administration (the long gas lines, the high tax rate, etc.) People voted Republican. When people got tired of Bush Sr. they voted for Clinton. If we go too far one way, we will bounce back. Don’t you remember that Jesse Ventura (previously a bizarre professional wrestler) became the governor of Minnesota? He is from the Reform Party and Independence party. Ross Perot came in and shook up the electorate for a while.

I think the most important realization about the political system in America is that Republicans are the same as Democrats, and only make cosmetic policy changes. The general foreign and domestic policy of the United States has been the same for 100 years: command and conquer.

Nothing you say lends any weight to the claim that Independents have any kind of political influence. They are seen as a small radical party, and do not have mainstream support. No mainstream support, no influence.

I was using such numbers as an exaggeration in order to make a point. I don’t like repeating myself so often but I’ll say it again. If enough people want change, then they will get change.

I understand, I also don't enjoy repeating myself:NO ONE IS PAYING ATTENTION, SO NO ONE WANTS CHANGE.

You need not wait long. We have not had an independent as president though we have had an independent governor in Minnesota. Once in a while the independent people manage to get through.

A governor does not have anywhere near the kind of policy impact in America as a president. Hence, there's no weight in that example. The establishment would never willingly accept a free thinking person into government.

The media is ultimately controlled by the people. If you don’t like a station, change the channel or lead a boycott. If you think that ABC is too liberally biased, go to FOX. Get people together who think as you do and make your own station. I think that we are somewhat in agreement here.

Once again, you seem to think of things in terms of Cons/Lib or Repub/Dem... these difference don't CHANGE ANYTHING. They are just words to make you believe you still have a choice. YOU DON'T. 5 COMPANIES CONTROL 99% of the mainstream media you see. Tell me again how media is controlled by the people?

Yes. I’m an honest, law abiding citizen. I vote. If I get concerned enough, I write letters to newspaper editors, call my congressmen, and do other activities too.

Good for you. What about the rest of America? How many people do you think get actively involved in politics? Give me a percentage.

I am paying attention. I am familiar with such issues.

Good for you. What about the rest of America? How many people do you think know about Chinagate. Give me a percentage.