Are You For Increasing The Debt Limit?

[loosecannon]

If the Fed printing money it has is not debt, then what is it?

Printing money is not necessarily the best way for the government to pay their bills because it increase the money supply which might not be desirable. Borrow the money has much less effect on the money supply.

But another trillion in debt on top of the 13 trillion you already have doesn't weaken the currency the same way increasing the money supply does?

It's a moot point.

 

[Vanquish]

It has to be done in the short term, but that can't be an escape for actually paying it down and not adding to the spending.

 

[Flopper]

You got it Epsilon. Though they don't understand, they are advocating imediate and total meltdown. I can advocate that they try it only because I know that none of the people sent to washington are as insane as the idiots who take their brainwashing rhetoric as gospel. The debt ceiling will be raised. It HAS TO BE.

You are an idiot and can't think outside of your partisan box.

The deficit can be cut by 30% without hurting anything except the two wars and the repeal of the Bush tax cuts.

If you had half a brain you would have already recognized that the Bush tax cuts are the primary target.

Hold on, are you suggesting that the Tea Partiers are going to support repealing the Bush tax cuts? Or that freezing the deficit would hurt the effort to repeal the Bush tax cuts?

In any case, your last point doesn't make any sense. Neither party has any interest in repealing the Bush tax cuts, the Democrats wanted to repeal the tax cuts for the "rich" but they've already shown they'll compromise (in any case, they'll likely extend all of them in the short term, and they probably should; the Republicans/Tea Partiers will vote against any other tax raises). The only option left is to borrow.

And you know what the problem is? The problem is that of course it would be incredibly stupid to raise taxes right now in the middle of the recession; THIS is the exact moment that those tax cuts were needed. Both parties are right about that. But with this kind of insane deficit, people ARE right to be going nuts about the deficit. It's just a damn shame that Bush had to put in place these taxes which were unnecessary (especially the 2003 Tax Cuts). NOW is that "rainy day" that surpluses are good for. And then a double whammy of War... It's not about blaming Bush for the recession or anything, but I mean, in terms of the deficit it's just a shame.

But there's nothing to do about that now. If the budget is frozen, or even if tax rates increase, we're gonna dip right in and this time it's going to get much uglier.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that most important part - that cutting spending will likely also lead us into a double or dip, or most likely, maintain the current state of affairs for a long time (i.e. ~10% unemployment). I guess it depends where, I'm sure there's places that can be cut but.... yeah

I agree. The question is what will create sufficient demand for business to expand in the US and thus create jobs? Economists say we need a GDP growth of 5%. It's just over 2% now. Large businesses are sitting on a ton of cash so they don't need a tax cut to expand plus there is ample supply of low interest money available.. I'm think both parties have the right idea about tax incentives for small businesses.

 

[Liability]

You are an idiot and can't think outside of your partisan box.

The deficit can be cut by 30% without hurting anything except the two wars and the repeal of the Bush tax cuts.

If you had half a brain you would have already recognized that the Bush tax cuts are the primary target.

Hold on, are you suggesting that the Tea Partiers are going to support repealing the Bush tax cuts? Or that freezing the deficit would hurt the effort to repeal the Bush tax cuts?

In any case, your last point doesn't make any sense. Neither party has any interest in repealing the Bush tax cuts, the Democrats wanted to repeal the tax cuts for the "rich" but they've already shown they'll compromise (in any case, they'll likely extend all of them in the short term, and they probably should; the Republicans/Tea Partiers will vote against any other tax raises). The only option left is to borrow.

And you know what the problem is? The problem is that of course it would be incredibly stupid to raise taxes right now in the middle of the recession; THIS is the exact moment that those tax cuts were needed. Both parties are right about that. But with this kind of insane deficit, people ARE right to be going nuts about the deficit. It's just a damn shame that Bush had to put in place these taxes which were unnecessary (especially the 2003 Tax Cuts). NOW is that "rainy day" that surpluses are good for. And then a double whammy of War... It's not about blaming Bush for the recession or anything, but I mean, in terms of the deficit it's just a shame.

But there's nothing to do about that now. If the budget is frozen, or even if tax rates increase, we're gonna dip right in and this time it's going to get much uglier.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that most important part - that cutting spending will likely also lead us into a double or dip, or most likely, maintain the current state of affairs for a long time (i.e. ~10% unemployment). I guess it depends where, I'm sure there's places that can be cut but.... yeah

No serious discussion of eliminating the deficit can include extension of the tax cuts.

Make up your mind: are you for the deficit and the tax cuts or not.

Au contraire.

First off, we aren't going to "eliminate" any deficit. It is far too massive to be eliminated in any reasonably short period of time. I mean, I am not calling for defaulting on valid obligations. What we need to do, though, is reverse field and start reining that crap in. Make the deficits much much smaller moving forward AND, looking backward, cutting deficit spending (where it is possible).

Secondly, the way to do that is to stop spending (actual spending and deficit spending). But that does NOT mean that we need to raise taxes. Hell, I say we cut taxes some more. Get the economy booming. And with that rising tide (to steal a line from the late President Kennedy) all boats may get lifted.

My mind is made up. I am against this absurdly dangerous massive deficit and therefore I am for BOTH tax cuts and massively reduced spending.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

No serious discussion of eliminating the deficit can include extension of the tax cuts.

Make up your mind: are you for the deficit and the tax cuts or not.

Loosecannon, you don't seem to quite understand - the Tax Cuts are not going to be repealed within at least the next 2 years. The Party in power in the House of Representatives is not going to allow it, regardless of the deficit.

If anyone has to 'make up their minds' its the American people (though it seems they already did).

You know the real problem here is that there are two BIG problems in the US: The biggest problem is the weak recovery and the chance of a double-dip, the second problem is the enormous and growing deficit. You cannot solve both at the same time, which is what Americans can't seem to understand. The exit polls showed that

39% of Americans think reducing the deficit is most important
37% think spending to create jobs is most important
19% think cutting taxes is the most important

The first is completely incompatible with the second two. The interesting thing is that the first and third are primarily Republican positions, and neither constituency or representatives seem to understand that they cannot do both, and most importantly, you cannot do both while doing anything about the recovery.

What do I think? I think yes, it's unfortunate that the US debt is so high and that the deficit is growing, but that the deficit is growing is a function of lower tax revenues because of the recession, unnecessary decades-long tax cuts, and enormous extra military spending over 10 years. But the fact is that for the immediate future the US can keep borrowing , becuase if the US goes down, everybody loses. And I mean, EVERYBODY. On the flip side, the deficit problem will probably never get solved unless the US gets out of recession and starts growing again, so that should be the priority. Raising taxes is incompatible with that.