Are we seeing the beginning of the Fourth Reich?

[zzzz]

In the last century Hitler brought Europe the Third Reich through military conquest and in the process WII and destruction. Today the conquest of Europe appears to be of a different sort but the effect may turn the EU into the German dominated Fourth Reich.

Many in Europe are calling for Germany to take more control of the EU to help pull the EU out of this financial crisis. Even the Poles are pleading for German control.

For more than half a century, the legacy of World War II has meant that the mere mention of a new rise of German power sent shudders through European nations. Now, Germany is increasingly calling the shots for the entire continent — and few seem to mind.
Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski — whose nation lost millions of people in the Nazi invasion and occupation — shocked many this week when he made a dramatic appeal for greater German influence.

"You know full well that nobody else can do it," he told a largely German audience in Berlin. "I will probably be the first Polish foreign minister in history to say so, but here it is: I fear German power less than I am beginning to fear German inactivity."

Jconline - Europe, facing abyss, embraces German might

The use of military force in this age when there is a dominant force (USA) keeping the peace is gone. Conquest today is through economic and political means and the original fear of Germany taking over the EU and essentially making the EU a greater Germany appears to be possible and thereby the rise of the Fourth Reich.

What does this mean for the US?

 

[alexa]

In the last century Hitler brought Europe the Third Reich through military conquest and in the process WII and destruction. Today the conquest of Europe appears to be of a different sort but the effect may turn the EU into the German dominated Fourth Reich.

Many in Europe are calling for Germany to take more control of the EU to help pull the EU out of this financial crisis. Even the Poles are pleading for German control.

For more than half a century, the legacy of World War II has meant that the mere mention of a new rise of German power sent shudders through European nations. Now, Germany is increasingly calling the shots for the entire continent — and few seem to mind.
Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski — whose nation lost millions of people in the Nazi invasion and occupation — shocked many this week when he made a dramatic appeal for greater German influence.

"You know full well that nobody else can do it," he told a largely German audience in Berlin. "I will probably be the first Polish foreign minister in history to say so, but here it is: I fear German power less than I am beginning to fear German inactivity."

Jconline - Europe, facing abyss, embraces German might

The use of military force in this age when there is a dominant force (USA) keeping the peace is gone. Conquest today is through economic and political means and the original fear of Germany taking over the EU and essentially making the EU a greater Germany appears to be possible and thereby the rise of the Fourth Reich.

People don't mind because we are told that if the Eurozone falls down all hell will break loose - and can you really imagine France letting Germany have all the say?

Italy and Greece have unelected technocrats running them. Italy having one who previously worked for the people most blamed for this mess.

People seem to feel safe in the Euro. It is the one thing which guarantees peace. There is no space for any voice otherwise.

Even the British, who did not experience communism or fascism, ought to have sympathy with those who yearn to make the eurozone work despite all that has happened. For the original six members, European unity offered an escape from Nazism. For Spain, Greece and Portugal, it was an escape from militaristic rightwing dictators. For the nations of the old Soviet empire, it was an escape from communism. Dimitris Hadzisokratis, who led the occupation of Athens polytechnic in 1973, a heroic moment of resistance that began the overthrow of Greece's military junta, is now the leader of the Greek Democratic Left party.

Despite, or maybe because of, the crisis in his country, he told me that the answer to the eurozone's troubles must be more federalism, not less. For him and his generation, the European Union offered an escape from dictatorship to a better world of human rights, the rule of law and personal freedom.

I suspect that one day they will say that the EU's unforgivable crime was to take their idealism and hope and throw them away for the sake of a harebrained currency experiment. But they are not saying that now. They have too much invested to give up on the euro.

How long their resolution will last is open to doubt. In Italy and Greece, the EU offered semi-honest government that compared well when set against the corruption of the local elites. A citizen of Rome disgusted by the behaviour of Silvio Berlusconi could look on distant Brussels as a countervailing force. Now, Brussels is no longer a kindly relative who can be called on for help when the wilder members of family go off the rails. It isn't distant, but in Italians' faces and in power in Rome. The foundation of the unelected Monti government is an ominous moment in European history. Neither Monti nor any of his colleagues has condescended to do anything so vulgar as stand for election. Herman van Rompuy, the president of the European Council, and another stranger to democratic legitimacy, revels in the absence of popular sovereignty. Unelected power was necessary to whip Italy into shape, he told Italians. Their "country needs reforms, not elections".

If the reforms fail to deliver growth, and the eurozone as presently constituted almost guarantees that Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal will fail, the EU will have no one to hide behind. Italy's failure will be its failure and its responsibility. British Euro-sceptics should not rejoice. Europe is crawling with ultra-nationalists, le Pen-ists, Northern Leaguers, crypto-fascists, anarchist nihilists and unreconstructed Marxist-Leninists who will rejoice with far more enthusiasm.

Does the left have a voice in the euro crisis? | Nick Cohen | Comment is free | The Observer

What does this mean for the US?

If the Eurozone fails I hear it will make anything both the US and the UK have been through before look like a picnic. Will it, I don't know. Will that happen anyway, maybe.

 

[ekrem]

German dominated? Yes.
Fourth Reich? No.

It also seems to move in the direction of what they call the "Europe of 2 speeds".

 

[ekrem]

British Euro-sceptics should not rejoice.

English not only inhabit a land half the size of Germany, but they have to share it with the Scottish, too.
Not much rejoice these days except opening the history books.

 

[zzzz]

Yet when one part becomes dominant in a quasi country (EU) the other parts can gradually become assimilated like the US did. Of course it could remained fractured as some middle eastern countries are tribal.

The use of the word Reich has been put into the arena of bad words because of the Nazi's but history has a way of softening those attitudes and as the people who suffered under the Third Reich pass away and generation after generation distance themselves form that era the word becomes more useful.

But in a political sense the position of the Germans in the EU place them as the natural leaders of the EU and thereby in essence making the EU a German empire, especially if they lead the Euro zone out of this financial crisis. And in essence they will have conquered Europe, not by force but through economic means and become the Fourth Reich.

 

[Douger]

Duh Fourth Reich consists of 535 assholes.

 

[alexa]

Yet when one part becomes dominant in a quasi country (EU) the other parts can gradually become assimilated like the US did. Of course it could remained fractured as some middle eastern countries are tribal.

The use of the word Reich has been put into the arena of bad words because of the Nazi's but history has a way of softening those attitudes and as the people who suffered under the Third Reich pass away and generation after generation distance themselves form that era the word becomes more useful.

But in a political sense the position of the Germans in the EU place them as the natural leaders of the EU and thereby in essence making the EU a German empire, especially if they lead the Euro zone out of this financial crisis. And in essence they will have conquered Europe, not by force but through economic means and become the Fourth Reich.

I have to admit similar thoughts had crossed my mind the day before you started this thread.

I don't know enough about economics but I was recently hearing that by some way Germany has actually been supported by the smaller countries who are now in trouble and that one of the things Merkel needs to do is to tell the German people that so that they are prepared to take a drop in their standard of living - a standard which they have somehow managed to obtain because of the other countries. In other words it sounded that Germany owed to them, not quite so much just her giving out and that her people needed to become aware of that and aware that if the euro fails and Spain and Italy start making money and selling their goods at whatever price all hell will break lose for Germany.

Germany and France also want to put in a Robin Hood type tax. Britain said no. It's about the only positive thing I see at the moment. I think we need an International one.

They are talking about this taking years. It cannot and will not be a German only thing even though it may look like that at the present moment.

Time to worry is when you listen to an African on News 24 chuckling away about Europe trusting the IMF and saying that Africa and China are looking good and ready to come through and take their place, as I did yesterday.

 

[editec]

Economically speaking I'd say that Germany is a rather reluctant leader of an united Europe.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

A good argument could be made that the whole post war period was a replay of the period between 1819-1871 when the second Reich was built in a manner like the current EU.

Prussia had huge amounts of territory all over the place and set up the Zollverein with a council of ministers running it. Prussia took a large financial loss subsidizing the Zollverein during its existence, until it was replaced by the empire in 1871.

The Zollverein was the instrument of Prussian hegemony, much like the EU has become the instrument of German hegemony.

Comparing the way Germany was run after the Zollverein to the way it was before shows it was a brilliant and humanistic move. Same way with the EU. Being run by the Germans is a bit of a drawback, but it is a major step forward in every other way.

 

[rdean]

Are we seeing the beginning of the Fourth Reich?

If you are a:

gay
woman
Muslim
Hispanic
black
liberal
college professor
teacher
policeman
firemen
atheist

You have a lot more to fear from the American right wing than the "Forth Reich".

 

[zzzz]

I have to admit similar thoughts had crossed my mind the day before you started this thread.

I don't know enough about economics but I was recently hearing that by some way Germany has actually been supported by the smaller countries who are now in trouble and that one of the things Merkel needs to do is to tell the German people that so that they are prepared to take a drop in their standard of living - a standard which they have somehow managed to obtain because of the other countries. In other words it sounded that Germany owed to them, not quite so much just her giving out and that her people needed to become aware of that and aware that if the euro fails and Spain and Italy start making money and selling their goods at whatever price all hell will break lose for Germany.

Germany and France also want to put in a Robin Hood type tax. Britain said no. It's about the only positive thing I see at the moment. I think we need an International one.

They are talking about this taking years. It cannot and will not be a German only thing even though it may look like that at the present moment.

Time to worry is when you listen to an African on News 24 chuckling away about Europe trusting the IMF and saying that Africa and China are looking good and ready to come through and take their place, as I did yesterday.

Yet remember back in the day when the wall came crumbling down it was assumed that the West Germans would take a hit economically because of all the baggage the east Germans had. Now they are the economic pillar Europe looks too and this is not just a western European entity now. The EU consists of 27 states: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, UK; note - candidate countries: Croatia, Iceland, Macedonia, Montenegro, Turkey.

I

 

[ekrem]

Croatia will join 2013.

 

[alexa]

I have to admit similar thoughts had crossed my mind the day before you started this thread.

I don't know enough about economics but I was recently hearing that by some way Germany has actually been supported by the smaller countries who are now in trouble and that one of the things Merkel needs to do is to tell the German people that so that they are prepared to take a drop in their standard of living - a standard which they have somehow managed to obtain because of the other countries. In other words it sounded that Germany owed to them, not quite so much just her giving out and that her people needed to become aware of that and aware that if the euro fails and Spain and Italy start making money and selling their goods at whatever price all hell will break lose for Germany.

Germany and France also want to put in a Robin Hood type tax. Britain said no. It's about the only positive thing I see at the moment. I think we need an International one.

They are talking about this taking years. It cannot and will not be a German only thing even though it may look like that at the present moment.

Time to worry is when you listen to an African on News 24 chuckling away about Europe trusting the IMF and saying that Africa and China are looking good and ready to come through and take their place, as I did yesterday.

Yet remember back in the day when the wall came crumbling down it was assumed that the West Germans would take a hit economically because of all the baggage the east Germans had. Now they are the economic pillar Europe looks too and this is not just a western European entity now. The EU consists of 27 states: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, UK; note - candidate countries: Croatia, Iceland, Macedonia, Montenegro, Turkey.

I

Well there are only 17 countries in the Euro, that is what the Eurozone is. Britain and Denmark for example are part of the EU but not part of the Euro. So the two big players in the Eurozone are France and Germany and they are working to find a way to solve things. They seem to be thinking of a new treaty and taking countries to the European court if they overspend and getting the ECB to help. Germany I think has been terrified of using ECB money because of the 1920's hyperinflation - one of the things it could apparently do is buy up bonds from struggling countries at cheap prices. I really do not know if it is as much Germany being in the lead as needing Germany to give the go ahead to the ECB. Apparently she will suffer greatly if this does not work so it is in her interests. You need to remember that we have built up trading and treaties with each other since WW2. Germany as such a big player has a lot to lose. - though to be honest I do not understand it very well.

So, people are hoping that they get something sorted out next week despite the reality that Merkel said only last week that there were no easy solutions and it would take years and years.

Then the Guardian article I put in earlier said we might be better just getting rid of the euro but no one dare say it.

What they do seem to be sure of though is that if the Euro does not get sorted the effect on the US economy as well as the UK's will be devastating.

 

[Trajan]

A good argument could be made that the whole post war period was a replay of the period between 1819-1871 when the second Reich was built in a manner like the current EU.

Prussia had huge amounts of territory all over the place and set up the Zollverein with a council of ministers running it. Prussia took a large financial loss subsidizing the Zollverein during its existence, until it was replaced by the empire in 1871.

The Zollverein was the instrument of Prussian hegemony, much like the EU has become the instrument of German hegemony.

Comparing the way Germany was run after the Zollverein to the way it was before shows it was a brilliant and humanistic move. Same way with the EU. Being run by the Germans is a bit of a drawback, but it is a major step forward in every other way.

well said.

 

[Trajan]

Are we seeing the beginning of the Fourth Reich?

If you are a:

gay
woman
Muslim
Hispanic
black
liberal
college professor
teacher
policeman
firemen
atheist

You have a lot more to fear from the American right wing than the "Forth Reich".

you left out theTasmanian Gay and Lesbian Rights Group ...jackass.

 

[Toro]

Are we seeing the beginning of the Fourth Reich?

If you are a:

gay
woman
Muslim
Hispanic
black
liberal
college professor
teacher
policeman
firemen
atheist

You have a lot more to fear from the American right wing than the "Forth Reich".

Give it a rest.