Are We At War Or Not?

[Sinatra]

Pat who, even his sister has more clout now go figure

Does nothing to refute the wisdom of his words pard...

 

[Sinatra]

Pat Buchanan gives us a brilliant dissertation on the contradictory nature of the Holder KSM civilian trial decision.

Excerpts...

___


Are We at War -- or Not?

By Pat Buchanan

For if we are at war, why is Khalid Sheikh Mohammed headed for trial in federal court in the Southern District of New York? Why is he entitled to a presumption of innocence and all of the constitutional protections of a U.S. citizen?

Is it possible we have done an injustice to this man by keeping him locked up all these years without trial? For that is what this trial implies -- that he may not be guilty.

And if we must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that KSM was complicit in mass murder, by what right do we send Predators and Special Forces to kill his al-Qaida comrades wherever we find them? For none of them has been granted a fair trial.

...When the Justice Department sets up a task force to wage war on a crime organization like the Mafia or MS-13, no U.S. official has a right to shoot Mafia or gang members on sight. No one has a right to bomb their homes. No one has a right to regard the possible death of their wives and children in an attack as acceptable collateral damage.

Yet that is what we do to al-Qaida, to which KSM belongs.

We conduct those strikes in good conscience because we believe we are at war. But if we are at war, what is KSM doing in a U.S. court?

...When John Wilkes Booth shot Abraham Lincoln, alleged collaborators like Mary Surratt were tried before a military tribunal and hanged at Ft. McNair. When eight German saboteurs were caught in 1942 after being put ashore by U-boat, they were tried in secret before a military commission and executed, with the approval of the Supreme Court. What makes KSM special?

Is the Obama administration aware of what it is risking by not turning KSM over to a military tribunal in Guantanamo?

How does Justice handle a defense demand for a change of venue, far from lower Manhattan, where the jury pool was most deeply traumatized by Sept. 11? Would not KSM and his co-defendants, if a change of venue is denied, have a powerful argument for overturning any conviction on appeal?

Were not KSM's Miranda rights impinged when he was not only not told he could have a lawyer on capture, but that his family would be killed and he would be water-boarded if he refused to talk?

...There have been reports that in the trials of those convicted in the first World Trade Center bombing, sources and methods were compromised, weakening our security for the second attack on Sept. 11.

What do we do if the case against KSM is thrown out because the government refuses to reveal sources or methods, or if he gets a hung jury, or is acquitted, or has his conviction overturned?

In America, trials often become games, where the prosecution, though it has truth on its side, loses because it inadvertently breaks one of the rules.

The Obamaites had best pray that does not happen, for they may be betting his presidency on the outcome of the game about to begin.


RealClearPolitics - Are We at War -- or Not?

,,,

,,,

 

[potter 58]

Hey Sin , If Bush did nothing wrong , what the fuck are you worried about

 

[HUGGY]

That's the problem. The terrorists know that they are at war with us, but Obama and the dems have to stay "politically correct" so we can't be at war with the terrorists. It wouldn't be "civilized". Why hell, we couldn't even waterboard them, yet they behead our guys.
Guess we know why the voters, even democrat voters, have had enough of this Obama crowd.

Oh really? Why do you suppoze the "terrorists" are at war with us? I guess if some country invaded the U S you would just bend over and pass em the vasoline. Ossama attacked us because of the US Air Force base we put in Saudi Arabia. After the attack we took it out....Hmmmmmm? We have not been attacked by Ossama since. No connection? The problem is that many Americans do not respect any people anywhere else on the planet. I take it that you are one of them. Actions have consequences. It is morons like Bush and Cheney that put us in jeoprady(sp?).

Keep on doing stupid things and bad things happen. It doesn't matter if WE think it is something we have to do if it will obviously lead to push back that we are not prepared to deal with. The world has caught up with the morons that send our military out on foolish adventures. We can't bomb everbody. If something comes up that we have to deal with I hope those making those decisions take all of the probable consequences into account.
Simplistic talking points like "war on terror" are rediculous and dangerous.

 

[potter 58]

Let me get this straight, "W" said, right SIN and he went lawyer shopping to a fellow named YOO, and this your argumentFunding and history

The Federalist Society is funded by member dues and by grants, many from conservative organizations.[original research?]

The society was begun by a group including Edwin Meese, Robert Bork, Ted Olson, David M. McIntosh, and Steven Calabresi, and its members have included Supreme Court justices Antonin Scalia, John G. Roberts and Samuel Alito.[6]
[edit] A

 

[Sinatra]

Let me get this straight, "W" said, right SIN and he went lawyer shopping to a fellow named YOO, and this your argumentFunding and history

The Federalist Society is funded by member dues and by grants, many from conservative organizations.[original research?]

The society was begun by a group including Edwin Meese, Robert Bork, Ted Olson, David M. McIntosh, and Steven Calabresi, and its members have included Supreme Court justices Antonin Scalia, John G. Roberts and Samuel Alito.[6]
[edit] A

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W67H4k-Asf8]YouTube - Deadwood - Al Swearengen Rant "Vile Task" Season 1[/ame]

 

[Polk]

It's already been said better by other people:
Ezra Klein - Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is not the master of magnetism

 

[tigerbob]

Was the 1993 WTC bombing an act of war?

No. Terrorism.

Then the 2001 attack on the WTC would be terrorism, but not an act of war?

Correct, IMO.

 

[Sinatra]

It's already been said better by other people:
Ezra Klein - Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is not the master of magnetism

Yeah - a 25 year old blogger and former Howard Deaner.

C'mon now - were your trying to be funny here?

 

[Sinatra]

Pat Buchanan gives us a brilliant dissertation on the contradictory nature of the Holder KSM civilian trial decision.

Excerpts...

___


Are We at War -- or Not?

By Pat Buchanan

For if we are at war, why is Khalid Sheikh Mohammed headed for trial in federal court in the Southern District of New York? Why is he entitled to a presumption of innocence and all of the constitutional protections of a U.S. citizen?

Is it possible we have done an injustice to this man by keeping him locked up all these years without trial? For that is what this trial implies -- that he may not be guilty.

And if we must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that KSM was complicit in mass murder, by what right do we send Predators and Special Forces to kill his al-Qaida comrades wherever we find them? For none of them has been granted a fair trial.

...When the Justice Department sets up a task force to wage war on a crime organization like the Mafia or MS-13, no U.S. official has a right to shoot Mafia or gang members on sight. No one has a right to bomb their homes. No one has a right to regard the possible death of their wives and children in an attack as acceptable collateral damage.

Yet that is what we do to al-Qaida, to which KSM belongs.

We conduct those strikes in good conscience because we believe we are at war. But if we are at war, what is KSM doing in a U.S. court?

...When John Wilkes Booth shot Abraham Lincoln, alleged collaborators like Mary Surratt were tried before a military tribunal and hanged at Ft. McNair. When eight German saboteurs were caught in 1942 after being put ashore by U-boat, they were tried in secret before a military commission and executed, with the approval of the Supreme Court. What makes KSM special?

Is the Obama administration aware of what it is risking by not turning KSM over to a military tribunal in Guantanamo?

How does Justice handle a defense demand for a change of venue, far from lower Manhattan, where the jury pool was most deeply traumatized by Sept. 11? Would not KSM and his co-defendants, if a change of venue is denied, have a powerful argument for overturning any conviction on appeal?

Were not KSM's Miranda rights impinged when he was not only not told he could have a lawyer on capture, but that his family would be killed and he would be water-boarded if he refused to talk?

...There have been reports that in the trials of those convicted in the first World Trade Center bombing, sources and methods were compromised, weakening our security for the second attack on Sept. 11.

What do we do if the case against KSM is thrown out because the government refuses to reveal sources or methods, or if he gets a hung jury, or is acquitted, or has his conviction overturned?

In America, trials often become games, where the prosecution, though it has truth on its side, loses because it inadvertently breaks one of the rules.

The Obamaites had best pray that does not happen, for they may be betting his presidency on the outcome of the game about to begin.


RealClearPolitics - Are We at War -- or Not?

,,,

 

[Polk]

It's already been said better by other people:
Ezra Klein - Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is not the master of magnetism

Yeah - a 25 year old blogger and former Howard Deaner.

C'mon now - were your trying to be funny here?

So what about his argument is wrong?

Trying these guys publicly, as well as holding them in normal prisons like common criminals, is good public relations. Being a terrorist is a more appealing prospect if the world's sole superpower appears to cower before your might than it is if you end up trapped in the American legal system, forced to submit to endless cross-examination and consultation with attorneys and other bureaucratic humiliations. Lots of people want to be super villains. But who wants to be a henchman? Being held on a fortified military island and tortured by a country that can't seem to get you to talk is a much more glorious finish than a long and dull trial that ends with you serving time in central New Jersey.

 

[potter 58]

hey Sin , how old were you when braindead ROnnie bEAT FEET OUT OF LEBENoN, after he traded arms for hostages

 

[PatekPhilippe]

what's done is done.. stupidly done but done nonetheless!

"You have given out too much rep in the last 24 hours. Please try again later."

I agree...we can do nothing at this point except watch the drama unfold over the next 10 fricken years. I will bet you a thousand dollars right now they drag this out and begin the most Bush bashing, anti-torture, anti-war, KSM is a great guy bullshit right around October/November of 2010.

 

[Sinatra]

It's already been said better by other people:
Ezra Klein - Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is not the master of magnetism

Yeah - a 25 year old blogger and former Howard Deaner.

C'mon now - were your trying to be funny here?

So what about his argument is wrong?

Trying these guys publicly, as well as holding them in normal prisons like common criminals, is good public relations. Being a terrorist is a more appealing prospect if the world's sole superpower appears to cower before your might than it is if you end up trapped in the American legal system, forced to submit to endless cross-examination and consultation with attorneys and other bureaucratic humiliations. Lots of people want to be super villains. But who wants to be a henchman? Being held on a fortified military island and tortured by a country that can't seem to get you to talk is a much more glorious finish than a long and dull trial that ends with you serving time in central New Jersey.

What about it is right?

The kid is way over his head on this one.

He should stick to his food and politics light n fluffy cheeseball stuff.

And you would do well to educate yourself on the actual difficulties of trying these monsters in a civilian court given the conditions of their capture and resulting imprisonment...

 

[tigerbob]

It's already been said better by other people:
Ezra Klein - Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is not the master of magnetism

Yeah - a 25 year old blogger and former Howard Deaner.

C'mon now - were your trying to be funny here?

So what about his argument is wrong?

Trying these guys publicly, as well as holding them in normal prisons like common criminals, is good public relations. Being a terrorist is a more appealing prospect if the world's sole superpower appears to cower before your might than it is if you end up trapped in the American legal system, forced to submit to endless cross-examination and consultation with attorneys and other bureaucratic humiliations. Lots of people want to be super villains. But who wants to be a henchman? Being held on a fortified military island and tortured by a country that can't seem to get you to talk is a much more glorious finish than a long and dull trial that ends with you serving time in central New Jersey.

The bit I've bolded.

Terrorists would be deterred by the prospect of weeks of grandstanding in open court?

These are not doctors who are concerned about what the negative PR of a trial will do to their standing at the golf club.

Who wants to be a henchman???

 

[Sinatra]

Yeah - a 25 year old blogger and former Howard Deaner.

C'mon now - were your trying to be funny here?

So what about his argument is wrong?

Trying these guys publicly, as well as holding them in normal prisons like common criminals, is good public relations. Being a terrorist is a more appealing prospect if the world's sole superpower appears to cower before your might than it is if you end up trapped in the American legal system, forced to submit to endless cross-examination and consultation with attorneys and other bureaucratic humiliations. Lots of people want to be super villains. But who wants to be a henchman? Being held on a fortified military island and tortured by a country that can't seem to get you to talk is a much more glorious finish than a long and dull trial that ends with you serving time in central New Jersey.

The bit I've bolded.

Terrorists would be deterred by the prospect of weeks of grandstanding in open court?

These are not doctors who are concerned about what the negative PR of a trial will do to their standing at the golf club.

Who wants to be a henchman???

Exactly - how anyone could post in here the silly blogging of a 25 year old politics and food blogger is just a wee bit silly.

Not to mention it was sophomoric writing at best...

 

[tigerbob]

So what about his argument is wrong?

The bit I've bolded.

Terrorists would be deterred by the prospect of weeks of grandstanding in open court?

These are not doctors who are concerned about what the negative PR of a trial will do to their standing at the golf club.

Who wants to be a henchman???

Exactly - how anyone could post in here the silly blogging of a 25 year old politics and food blogger is just a wee bit silly.

Not to mention it was sophomoric writing at best...

It did seem a tad naive.

 

[Sinatra]

The bit I've bolded.

Terrorists would be deterred by the prospect of weeks of grandstanding in open court?

These are not doctors who are concerned about what the negative PR of a trial will do to their standing at the golf club.

Who wants to be a henchman???

Exactly - how anyone could post in here the silly blogging of a 25 year old politics and food blogger is just a wee bit silly.

Not to mention it was sophomoric writing at best...

It did seem a tad naive.

Naive is the entire Obama administration's take on conducting civilian trials for these animals...

 

[Polk]

Yeah - a 25 year old blogger and former Howard Deaner.

C'mon now - were your trying to be funny here?

So what about his argument is wrong?

Trying these guys publicly, as well as holding them in normal prisons like common criminals, is good public relations. Being a terrorist is a more appealing prospect if the world's sole superpower appears to cower before your might than it is if you end up trapped in the American legal system, forced to submit to endless cross-examination and consultation with attorneys and other bureaucratic humiliations. Lots of people want to be super villains. But who wants to be a henchman? Being held on a fortified military island and tortured by a country that can't seem to get you to talk is a much more glorious finish than a long and dull trial that ends with you serving time in central New Jersey.

The bit I've bolded.

Terrorists would be deterred by the prospect of weeks of grandstanding in open court?

These are not doctors who are concerned about what the negative PR of a trial will do to their standing at the golf club.

Who wants to be a henchman???

You really have no idea how trials work, do you? You don't just get to stand up in the middle of the room and shout whatever you'd like.

 

[Polk]

So what about his argument is wrong?

The bit I've bolded.

Terrorists would be deterred by the prospect of weeks of grandstanding in open court?

These are not doctors who are concerned about what the negative PR of a trial will do to their standing at the golf club.

Who wants to be a henchman???

Exactly - how anyone could post in here the silly blogging of a 25 year old politics and food blogger is just a wee bit silly.

Not to mention it was sophomoric writing at best...

Rave on, keyboard commando.