Are We Alone in the Universe?

[Foxfyre]

I also have the recordings of the actual Art Bell show that you were on. You may want to think up a new story or just come clean about it all.

You know how we all hate it when people just come in here and spread their "steaming liquid shit".

What about this, honey?:

[CTRL] $60 Mil Lawsuit Filed By Art Bell against David Oates &

How come you didn't use that link too, for the details and such, right from the source, your hero, Art Bell and the Woo Woos? Interesting.

And what about this? ( I love all these cowards in the woo woo crowd)

Spat With Talk Show Host - $60 Million Lawsuit

And all about Art Bell being arrested. I just love this.

Robert

From what I've read, the lawsuit Bell filed against Stephens was settled in 2000, and Stephens came out on the short end. Bell was not only exhonerated of all allegations but he continued to host Coast to Coast part time up until his full retirement I think in 2007. He has a severe medical condition and I think it was just too tough for him to continue.

Whatever you think of Art Bell, back when I was working into the wee hours of the morning night after night, his eclectic late night radio program of the wierd, the unbelievable, the bizarre, the strange kept me entertained and amused. There was no other program like it on the air. He of course is convinced we have had visitations from other worlds as is his replacement host, George Noury, on that program.

 

[HUGGY]

I also have the recordings of the actual Art Bell show that you were on. You may want to think up a new story or just come clean about it all.

You know how we all hate it when people just come in here and spread their "steaming liquid shit".

What about this, honey?:

[CTRL] $60 Mil Lawsuit Filed By Art Bell against David Oates &

How come you didn't use that link too, for the details and such, right from the source, your hero, Art Bell and the Woo Woos? Interesting.

And what about this? ( I love all these cowards in the woo woo crowd)

Spat With Talk Show Host - $60 Million Lawsuit

And all about Art Bell being arrested. I just love this.

Robert

From what I've read, the lawsuit Bell filed against Stephens was settled in 2000, and Stephens came out on the short end. Bell was not only exhonerated of all allegations but he continued to host Coast to Coast part time up until his full retirement I think in 2007. He has a severe medical condition and I think it was just too tough for him to continue.

Whatever you think of Art Bell, back when I was working into the wee hours of the morning night after night, his eclectic late night radio program of the wierd, the unbelievable, the bizarre, the strange kept me entertained and amused. There was no other program like it on the air. He of course is convinced we have had visitations from other worlds as is his replacement host, George Noury, on that program.

I have spent a few minutes searching the web for the actual slander Stevens among others is accused of perpetrating and all I can find is :

"The lawsuit describes a "conspiracy to slander" Art Bell, which includes malicious public allegations that Oates and Stevens have made. Basically, the complaint says they went on some radio shows and said that Art is

* a child molester,
* a trafficker in various aspects of pornography,
* has been mixed up with the militia movement,
* and travels to Thailand to have sex with little boys.

As well as several other nasty things."

It looks to me like Bell is publicizing his own slander evidence FAR more than anything being pushed by Stevens. In fact I could find no source that quotes Stevens issuing said slander.

I don't know Bell but it looks like if he kept his yap shut about these allegations NO ONE would have ever heard of it. It appears he is slandering himself.

 

[Robert_Stephens]

Thank you, but I can't completely go along with your answer. I don't mean to quibble but the data applied to the “Drake Formula” is arbitrary. When I enter my own calculations into Drake, mine look like this:

* = the number of stars in the Milky Way galaxy: 100 billion
(accounting for [5] above, this is a reasonable ball-park number)

FP = fraction of stars with planets around them: 50%
(depending on the odds of existing VS. not existing about half seems a reasonable number; expressing a fifty-fifty chance)

NE = number of planets per star ecologically able to sustain life: 0.5%
(sustaining life is the rub; even in our relatively safe region of space, the continuity of life [4] once started has been fraught with risk and could be terminated unexpectedly at any time)

F1 = fraction of those planets where life actually evolves: 70%
(assuming with enough time life beginning is inevitable and ubiquitous a high factor seems reasonable)

FI = the fraction of F1 that evolves intelligent life: 0.5% (If by intelligent we mean intelligence which survives long enough, enduring all the vicissitudes of severe climate change (a given) from all the many ways that can come about then 1/10th of fifty-fifty seems to be reasonable) Without a large moon to stabilize axis tilt [1][2] climate will be chaotic. A satellite of comparable size seems to be the most delimiting factor of all)

FC = the fraction of FI that communicates: 5%
(suggests a clear view of the heavens and an intention to communicate to hypothetical creatures beyond their own solar system in spite of the economic costs and political impingements) conditions on the planet can inhibit any interest in worlds beyond their own; [3] above. Life developing under-water - or under a thick atmosphere - regardless of a high intelligence, will lack incentive to communicate with creatures beyond their own world since they will lack awareness.)

FL = the fraction of the planet's life during which the communicating civilizations survives: 1/1,000,000th (10,000 years) (default number seems reasonable)

N = the number of communicating civilizations in the galaxy = 44 (43.75) civilizations

With such a small number of communicative civilizations existing and overlapping at any moment in time, we well might never find each other short of some faster than light travel. So in your final comment in bold, we definitely agree.

/SS/ American Horse - A.A. (Amateur Astronomer/60 years and counting)

This is great you crunched it and explored on your own. I have no rebuttal on this as it may well be that your numbers are more fitting than Drake's 10,000 number. For me I favor the latter. In your case, and your reasons, these too are sound and quite plausible as well for the reasons you state.

Sometimes in hypothetical postulates, it is better to reduce everything to a common denominator of what is: By that, we can say with certainty that life developed here. Then, from there, go out and take what we know with certainty and say it could, then, develop there at star system X and its planets.

The 10,000 possibles is based on all criteria of available data that is certain and why I think exo-solar life is probably abundant.

Good job. I hope others will take your lead, and will crunch there own numbers and do what you have done and see what they come up with. Its all good and valid.

Thank you for your work on your assessment,

....more anyone?

Robert

 

[Robert_Stephens]

What about this, honey?:

[CTRL] $60 Mil Lawsuit Filed By Art Bell against David Oates &

How come you didn't use that link too, for the details and such, right from the source, your hero, Art Bell and the Woo Woos? Interesting.

And what about this? ( I love all these cowards in the woo woo crowd)

Spat With Talk Show Host - $60 Million Lawsuit

And all about Art Bell being arrested. I just love this.

Robert

From what I've read, the lawsuit Bell filed against Stephens was settled in 2000, and Stephens came out on the short end. Bell was not only exhonerated of all allegations but he continued to host Coast to Coast part time up until his full retirement I think in 2007. He has a severe medical condition and I think it was just too tough for him to continue.

Whatever you think of Art Bell, back when I was working into the wee hours of the morning night after night, his eclectic late night radio program of the wierd, the unbelievable, the bizarre, the strange kept me entertained and amused. There was no other program like it on the air. He of course is convinced we have had visitations from other worlds as is his replacement host, George Noury, on that program.

I have spent a few minutes searching the web for the actual slander Stevens among others is accused of perpetrating and all I can find is :

"The lawsuit describes a "conspiracy to slander" Art Bell, which includes malicious public allegations that Oates and Stevens have made. Basically, the complaint says they went on some radio shows and said that Art is

* a child molester,
* a trafficker in various aspects of pornography,
* has been mixed up with the militia movement,
* and travels to Thailand to have sex with little boys.

As well as several other nasty things."

It looks to me like Bell is publicizing his own slander evidence FAR more than anything being pushed by Stevens. In fact I could find no source that quotes Stevens issuing said slander.

I don't know Bell but it looks like if he kept his yap shut about these allegations NO ONE would have ever heard of it. It appears he is slandering himself.

You are correct. He lost. I know, I was there.

Robert

 

[Sheldon]

Not sure if someone already posted this, but Carl Sagan, who is too awesome for words, does a pretty good job explaining the problem with the Drake Equation.

 

[HUGGY]

Not sure if someone already posted this, but Carl Sagan, who is too awesome for words, does a pretty good job explaining the problem with the Drake Equation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlikCebQSlY

Sagan's view is EXTREMELY pessimistic and clouded by his angst over nuclear self annihilation.

I submit that the life on earth is very unique in one way and that is the nature of our separation of the continents which has EVERYTHING to do with our civilizations competing and warring. On a planet with one major continent which earth was at one time it is more likely that the civilization than evolves into high tech would not be at war with anyone on the same planet. It is also very likely that an atomic bomb would never get invented because there would be no use for it.

Lastly one must keep in mind that his number crunch only entails the Milky Way....not the entire universe.

If his fears are adjusted for my factors there would be many millions of civilizations just in the Milky Way and trillions throughout the universe.

 

[syrenn]

Before I start this, this is my personal only opinion of studying this topic for over 35 years now. And though, off record, over 89% of NASA people and affiliated enterprises agree also with what follows, this is strictly my own take and stand at this time on this topic.

First, you must get very familiar with this link and data below, concerning the Drake Equation. It is the most compelling math tool and anyone can use it and it is fabulous for this subject. Here it is:

http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/SETI/drake_equation.htm

Ok, for me and over this 36 years interfacing with NASA and assorted agencies, I have come to the conclusion then, and now, that our universe, or closer in, our Galaxy, is host to lifeforms on a level of Star Trek-The Next Generation. I think it is a swarm of life, intelligent and everything in between.

ST-TNG, the federation, is 8000 Light Years (LYs) in diameter, and look at the life that is entailed in that fictional quadrant of our galaxy. I truly feel that whole world of grand fiction will play out in the near future to not only be true, but more so, conservative by numbers.

Here's why:

1. Our sun is a class C type star and is found to be the most common star type in the cosmos.

2. These star types tend to be the most stable and longest lived.

3. They last upwards of 6 billion years.

4. They have multiple planets, with at least one in the "Goldilocks Zone", where liquid water is present on the surface, thus the right distance from the home star.

5. And on carbon based planets, this is the condition for life, as we know it.

Further, like the movie, "Start Trek: First Contact", we are going to leave our home place. We will do so when we have developed something that is SoL+ or, a WARP drive if you will. From that, we are free.

And if we are free to explore out beyond our local solar neighborhood, we would obviously be able to reach out to other Class C worlds, for no other reason than to see if we are right.

And, aside from the darker psychopaths that post on all these myriad of boards to the contrary, NASA and all other space agencies around the planet is pushing the technology to "see" out there what is there. And it reasons well, if we are not alone, others out there are doing the same, looking back.

If we don't "see" each other at some point, or we get out there and then run into someone else, the treasure chest is open.

So, categorically, WE ARE NOT ALONE!!

In the not so near future, in our lifetimes even, we are going to get a message, anything, that will simply be "Hello. Are you there?"

Behold.

Comments encouraged greatly.

Robert

In a universe with as many galaxies there are (that we can see) it would be arrogant to think or beleive "we are the only ones"

 

[Robert_Stephens]

Not sure if someone already posted this, but Carl Sagan, who is too awesome for words, does a pretty good job explaining the problem with the Drake Equation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlikCebQSlY

I just love this--always have. Thank you for posting this for a reminder. And here is my all time favorite Carl Sagan inspiration, his words, "The Pale Blue Dot". I always kick back and take a moment to re-read this brilliant dissertation. The image and story of.......us......

The Pale Blue Dot

Look again at that dot. That’s here. That’s home. That’s us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every ‘superstar,’ every ‘supreme leader,’ every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there — on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds.

Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand.

It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we’ve ever known.--Carl Sagan

Enjoy everyone.

Robert

 

[Toro]

I also have the recordings of the actual Art Bell show that you were on. You may want to think up a new story or just come clean about it all.

You know how we all hate it when people just come in here and spread their "steaming liquid shit".

What about this, honey?:

[CTRL] $60 Mil Lawsuit Filed By Art Bell against David Oates &

How come you didn't use that link too, for the details and such, right from the source, your hero, Art Bell and the Woo Woos? Interesting.

And what about this? ( I love all these cowards in the woo woo crowd)

Spat With Talk Show Host - $60 Million Lawsuit

And all about Art Bell being arrested. I just love this.

Robert

Stephens said his main motive in entering the UFO discussions
was to defend NASA against outlandish charges - for example that
the agency was part of a government conspiracy to keep the
existence of space aliens secret from the American public.

Explains a lot.

You over at JREF?

 

[Robert_Stephens]

That reasoning by me as to why I took on Bell and so on, was just that. Still holds. The woo woos here are the same and they never waiver in their protocol: They defame, discredit, assail, attack, then, when you address each post-item a in pragmatic fashion, they never acknowledge your response, just move onto the next flame.

Exactly as Mad Scientist is doing to me here on this forum without provocation. Its a form of anonymous cowardliness and bullying this medium allows anyone to do.

Same motive, same style, same emptiness. Shame its not in person..........

Thanks for posting that above for me.

Robert

 

[Montrovant]

If this has already been brought up, I apologize, I didn't have time to go through the whole thread tonight.

These questions of life, and intelligent life, other than our own in the universe usually center on life as we currently know it. There's also the possibility to consider that life or intelligence might occur in some completely different form than ours. Perhaps the things we think are needed are not; perhaps some kind of life might form without water, or without 'breathable' atmosphere, etc. We have such a limited perspective, having only seen an incredibly small portion of the universe and over such a small amount of time, I wouldn't be surprised if some form of life arose totally outside our expectations.

Also, even if there is intelligent life, and it were within the range of how far radio waves will have traveled from Earth, it's possible that the life forms would not realize they originated from an intelligent source even if they saw them. Perhaps they have adapted entirely different forms of communication and the idea of using radio waves to broadcast signals never occurred to them; by the same token, it may be possible that we've received signals of some sort from another intelligent life form without realizing that is what they were.

I am a sci-fi fan, and would dearly love for humanity to encounter another intelligent life form in my lifetime, but the distances and time periods involved make me very skeptical that we will. I consider it very likely that there is/has been/will be other intelligent life in the universe, just not that we will interact with them.

Oh, and I love the early Star Trek references I feel the need to say that I was not a big fan of First Contact (or any of TNG movies), I thought the better movies based on the original series were far superior. I attribute that to the time between; TNG movies seemed too much like long episodes.

 

[Robert_Stephens]

If this has already been brought up, I apologize, I didn't have time to go through the whole thread tonight.

These questions of life, and intelligent life, other than our own in the universe usually center on life as we currently know it. There's also the possibility to consider that life or intelligence might occur in some completely different form than ours. Perhaps the things we think are needed are not; perhaps some kind of life might form without water, or without 'breathable' atmosphere, etc. We have such a limited perspective, having only seen an incredibly small portion of the universe and over such a small amount of time, I wouldn't be surprised if some form of life arose totally outside our expectations.

Also, even if there is intelligent life, and it were within the range of how far radio waves will have traveled from Earth, it's possible that the life forms would not realize they originated from an intelligent source even if they saw them. Perhaps they have adapted entirely different forms of communication and the idea of using radio waves to broadcast signals never occurred to them; by the same token, it may be possible that we've received signals of some sort from another intelligent life form without realizing that is what they were.

I am a sci-fi fan, and would dearly love for humanity to encounter another intelligent life form in my lifetime, but the distances and time periods involved make me very skeptical that we will. I consider it very likely that there is/has been/will be other intelligent life in the universe, just not that we will interact with them.

Oh, and I love the early Star Trek references I feel the need to say that I was not a big fan of First Contact (or any of TNG movies), I thought the better movies based on the original series were far superior. I attribute that to the time between; TNG movies seemed too much like long episodes.

The issue of how or what life is or might be other there or not is very SF and is ok. The search for exo-solar life based on the Drake Formula holds in that that is what we know here. It is not to exclude possibility, but to embrace what is known.

Carbon-water-O2-salt based life forms is what we know, so that is what we are going to search for. If we find something else, wonderful.

Alot of your data in your post is covered by me and others through thread, so you will have to bone up when you can and go back through. Lots of good data and a fair quick read also.

Hope that is helpful.

Robert

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

You at a loss for words Bob? Why? You posted that on another board.

The Hubble Space Telescope:
A. Isn't pointed at the earth.
B, Has no mechanism or software for mapping the earth as it was never intended to do so.

If you know different, let us know. The link you gave us is all "what if" and purely conjecture.

Is there something you wanna' tell us Bob? Just remember, Tourettes Syndrome doesn't affect internet postings.

Read the article. Read it carefully. At JPL or HST, we can turn the HST to see down to earth and read down to 5.5". I answered you. Can you read? Are you at a loss for words, or just being an asshole. Which? Read it again and then read the specs for resolution on HST and view demands.

HubbleSite - The Telescope - Hubble Essentials

Hope that is helpful. But what about are we alone in the Universe. I think that is the topic of this thread I started.

Robert

We ?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

You aint a rocket scientist nor an astrophysicist .

Site Contents: About the Artist

Robert A.M. Stephens is a professional artist, painting full time since May of 1977. Winning an art scholarship at age 14 sent him to the University California at Davis.There he was told he would never be an artist since he preferred to paint realistically. He agreed with their dissent since he hated the abstract, subjective creations popular during that period of the mid 60's, thus surrendering the scholarship. From that point he was determined to become a professional artist and decided to teach himself somehow. It took him 11 more years before he could launch his career as an easel painter and fine artist in plein-aire works professionally.

A 5 time Smithsonian (SITES) alumni in conjunction with NASA, and with work in collections, museums, and academies worldwide, he has proved UCD's art department they may have been a little hasty.

The image archive at this site is a collection both digital and oil on canvas/panel, that have been executed and sold or is for sale in current inventory as indicated in each image page. The artist is currently represented by the Hanson Trust, Inc., Gig Harbor, WA, USA. The Agent Provocateur can be reached at: [email protected] or,

The Art Of Robert A.M. Stephens-Behold The Heart
The Art Of Robert A.M. Stephens-Behold The Heart
Internet Archive Wayback Machine

http://www.usmessageboard.com/3342869-post93.html

Yikes indeed.

 

[JackDan]

The memo that 'proves aliens landed at Roswell'... released online by the FBI | Mail Online

 

[JackDan]

^ could be a hoax, but just thought it was worth this threads time.

 

[Abishai100]

If we look at the 4th and 5th terms of the equation, we are compounding probabilities of finding life and then intelligent life on a given planet.

Evaluating the chances of intelligent life then could be a mathematical computation of analogical reasoning.

That is, we seem to be taking values regarding intelligent life assessed on Earth and then transferring that reference frame to the analysis of billiards-like analogies elsewhere in the universe.

I'm not a math pro, but the gist is that it seems that the Drake Equation implies that human perception is very relevant in this analysis even if it is theoretically limited.

Why do crypto-scientists believe that the Bermuda Triangle is a region in Earth's waters where possible electromagnetic distortions/disturbances/vortexes are creating imperceptible disappearances of vessels crossing that area?

Could analysis of enigmas right here on Earth serve as investigative inspiration for enigmas elsewhere in the universe?

After all, why do American children and adults alike enjoy reading about bizarre fantasy-adventure comic book avatars such as Scarecrow (a masked maniac who wields devastating fear toxins against civilization)? Why do such people feel that antisocialism 'enigmas' are equivalent to creative thinking on Earth?

Perhaps that old adage applies here in some way: Be careful what you wish for.

Put in another way --- if we are so curious about the existence of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, is it possible that such curiosity is a consciousness sign of the 'tangibility of creative thinking?'

What if aliens do not want to be found?

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Before I start this, this is my personal only opinion of studying this topic for over 35 years now. And though, off record, over 89% of NASA people and affiliated enterprises agree also with what follows, this is strictly my own take and stand at this time on this topic.

First, you must get very familiar with this link and data below, concerning the Drake Equation. It is the most compelling math tool and anyone can use it and it is fabulous for this subject. Here it is:

http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/SETI/drake_equation.htm

Ok, for me and over this 36 years interfacing with NASA and assorted agencies, I have come to the conclusion then, and now, that our universe, or closer in, our Galaxy, is host to lifeforms on a level of Star Trek-The Next Generation. I think it is a swarm of life, intelligent and everything in between.

ST-TNG, the federation, is 8000 Light Years (LYs) in diameter, and look at the life that is entailed in that fictional quadrant of our galaxy. I truly feel that whole world of grand fiction will play out in the near future to not only be true, but more so, conservative by numbers.

Here's why:

1. Our sun is a class C type star and is found to be the most common star type in the cosmos.

2. These star types tend to be the most stable and longest lived.

3. They last upwards of 6 billion years.

4. They have multiple planets, with at least one in the "Goldilocks Zone", where liquid water is present on the surface, thus the right distance from the home star.

5. And on carbon based planets, this is the condition for life, as we know it.

Further, like the movie, "Start Trek: First Contact", we are going to leave our home place. We will do so when we have developed something that is SoL+ or, a WARP drive if you will. From that, we are free.

And if we are free to explore out beyond our local solar neighborhood, we would obviously be able to reach out to other Class C worlds, for no other reason than to see if we are right.

And, aside from the darker psychopaths that post on all these myriad of boards to the contrary, NASA and all other space agencies around the planet is pushing the technology to "see" out there what is there. And it reasons well, if we are not alone, others out there are doing the same, looking back.

If we don't "see" each other at some point, or we get out there and then run into someone else, the treasure chest is open.

So, categorically, WE ARE NOT ALONE!!

In the not so near future, in our lifetimes even, we are going to get a message, anything, that will simply be "Hello. Are you there?"

Behold.

Comments encouraged greatly.

Robert

Actually, our star Sol is a G2 V-type star. Maybe that's called C on some other categorization, but US astronomers call it G2 V spectral type and luminosity class.

Your whole premise is based on conjecture and unconfirmed speculation. Over 30 years and that's your case? Don't give up your day job.

What you fail to take into account with the Star Trek references is everything that happened in Star Trek took place after World War 3. It's not until faced with extinction that the human race got its act together. And billions died first.

A more elegant arguement for alien life is this: we exist. And since nothing else in the universe so far discovered is unique, it's probable other planets have myriad forms of life too.

 

[HUGGY]

If we look at the 4th and 5th terms of the equation, we are compounding probabilities of finding life and then intelligent life on a given planet.

Evaluating the chances of intelligent life then could be a mathematical computation of analogical reasoning.

That is, we seem to be taking values regarding intelligent life assessed on Earth and then transferring that reference frame to the analysis of billiards-like analogies elsewhere in the universe.

I'm not a math pro, but the gist is that it seems that the Drake Equation implies that human perception is very relevant in this analysis even if it is theoretically limited.

Why do crypto-scientists believe that the Bermuda Triangle is a region in Earth's waters where possible electromagnetic distortions/disturbances/vortexes are creating imperceptible disappearances of vessels crossing that area?

Could analysis of enigmas right here on Earth serve as investigative inspiration for enigmas elsewhere in the universe?

After all, why do American children and adults alike enjoy reading about bizarre fantasy-adventure comic book avatars such as Scarecrow (a masked maniac who wields devastating fear toxins against civilization)? Why do such people feel that antisocialism 'enigmas' are equivalent to creative thinking on Earth?

Perhaps that old adage applies here in some way: Be careful what you wish for.

Put in another way --- if we are so curious about the existence of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, is it possible that such curiosity is a consciousness sign of the 'tangibility of creative thinking?'

What if aliens do not want to be found?

Then they are smarter than we are.

If ANYTHING is obvious about life here on Earth it is that most if not all evolved life is predatory.

Everything eats or is a parasite to something else.

The notion that there is some form of benevolent life form looking to improve our existance is rediculous beyond any reason.

The dumbest thing we ever did as a society was to send that probe out into space advertising who and what we are and where to find us.

The people that sponsored that project need to be lined up against a wall and be publicly shot as a warning to anyone stupid enough to even think about repeating such a dangerous experiment.

Sometimes scientists are as dumb as christians.

 

[Skylar]

Not sure if someone already posted this, but Carl Sagan, who is too awesome for words, does a pretty good job explaining the problem with the Drake Equation.

Carl Sagan - Cosmos - Drake Equation - YouTube

Sagan's view is EXTREMELY pessimistic and clouded by his angst over nuclear self annihilation.

I submit that the life on earth is very unique in one way and that is the nature of our separation of the continents which has EVERYTHING to do with our civilizations competing and warring. On a planet with one major continent which earth was at one time it is more likely that the civilization than evolves into high tech would not be at war with anyone on the same planet. It is also very likely that an atomic bomb would never get invented because there would be no use for it.

I don't think that works. As it wasn't a clash of civilizations between continents that drove technology. But clashes within them.

The Spanish didn't develop steel so they could conquer the Maya and Aztec peoples. They had already long since refined that technology from other Europeans in their conflicts. The British didn't invent gunpowder or the Martini-Henry Rifles in order to defeat the Zulu in Africa. They had long since adopted or invented the technology before such conflicts even began. The Americans didn't develop the cannon or the tall ship so that Admiral Perry could end the Edo Period in shogunate Japan. They already had the technology.

And the conflicts were rarely symmetrical. There was usually a massive technological advantage to one side. New technologies from the advanced side of the conflict didn't really need to be developed, as they already had such an overwhelming advantage. Its only when facing folks that already have comperable technology that you need to improve your technology to gain an appreciable advantage. Look at the advances made during the relatively short years of WW2 alone. So I don't believe it was the continental separations that allowed technology to flourish. Or even caused it to do so. But instead, intra-landmass conflicts that did.

But we do agree on one point: conflicts were a major force for technological innovation.

Lastly one must keep in mind that his number crunch only entails the Milky Way....not the entire universe.

If his fears are adjusted for my factors there would be many millions of civilizations just in the Milky Way and trillions throughout the universe.

We're finding *way* more near earth sized rocky planets near the 'goldilocks' zone than we ever thought existed. The odds that in the entire universe we're the only example of complex life is ludicrously unlikely.

But distance is a bitch. And the vast distances are probably what keep these lifeforms from contacting each other.