Are the Palestinians a real people?

[José]

It is a tragedy that the countries wherein they live in refugee
camps refused to take them in and give them citizenship.​

If the US Message Board existed in 1985 I wonder if you would be demanding Zimbabwe, Botswana and Mozambique to give citizenship to millions of black citizens of Transkei, Ciskei and Kwazulu instead of demanding the south african leaders in Pretoria to dismantle the pathetic farce of the black "republics" and simply give south african citizenship to the "citizens" of the Bantustans.

 

[Coyote]

It is a tragedy that the countries wherein they live in refugee
camps refused to take them in and give them citizenship.​

If the US Message Board existed in 1985 I wonder if you would be demanding Zimbabwe, Botswana and Mozambique to give citizenship to millions of black citizens of Transkei, Ciskei and Kwazulu instead of demanding the south african leaders in Pretoria to dismantle the pathetic farce of the black "republics" and simply give south african citizenship to the "citizens" of the Bantustans.

Were they residing those countries in refugee camps?

 

[toomuchtime_]

It is a tragedy that the countries wherein they live in refugee
camps refused to take them in and give them citizenship.​

If the US Message Board existed in 1985 I wonder if you would be demanding Zimbabwe, Botswana and Mozambique to give citizenship to millions of black citizens of Transkei, Ciskei and Kwazulu instead of demanding the south african leaders in Pretoria to dismantle the pathetic farce of the black "republics" and simply give south african citizenship to the "citizens" of the Bantustans.

Were they residing those countries in refugee camps?

In the case of the Palestinians, refugee camps is a propaganda term. They live just as other poor Arabs in those countries live.

 

[Coyote]

It is a tragedy that the countries wherein they live in refugee
camps refused to take them in and give them citizenship.​

If the US Message Board existed in 1985 I wonder if you would be demanding Zimbabwe, Botswana and Mozambique to give citizenship to millions of black citizens of Transkei, Ciskei and Kwazulu instead of demanding the south african leaders in Pretoria to dismantle the pathetic farce of the black "republics" and simply give south african citizenship to the "citizens" of the Bantustans.

Were they residing those countries in refugee camps?

In the case of the Palestinians, refugee camps is a propaganda term. They live just as other poor Arabs in those countries live.

Tell that to the Palestinian refugees in Syria who couldn’t flee with the Syrians.

Arab Countries Are Forcing Palestinian Exiles Back Into Syria

 

[Shusha]

Rigby5

I could go through your posts, point by point, but I'm just going to agree with Coyote here and suggest you are massively, egregiously under-educated.

 

[Coyote]

I hate to say this, but, citizenship is conferred by nations and there is no nation. They are stateless, which is a tragedy.

"Stateless" is a foreign political opinion enforced at the point of a gun.

No. It is a human rights tragedy.

It is a tragedy that the countries wherein they live in refugee camps refused to take them in and give them citizenship. Because those in Syria had no papers, they couldn’t even flee ISIS, no country would give them shelter. It is shameful.

That's because allowing them to assimilate would be a betrayal of the "cause" of Palestinians nationalism. The myth that these are refugees is essential to the case against Israel; the more these fake refugees suffer, the better it is for the "cause".

They are not fake refugees.

Of course they are fake. No where else in the world would the grandchildren of an itinerant Egyptian farm worker who lived in what became Israel for a couple of years before fleeing from the war be called a Palestinian refugee. If Israel were not a Jewish state, the notion would have been laughed out of the UN.

Most had long standing ties in Palestine. And even for those who were not, so what? Does that alter the fact they were driven off their land and are stateless?

 

[Shusha]

The Jewish people were stateless for 3000 years. I feel this needs to be said.

 

[José]

Were they residing those countries in refugee camps?

​

Did black south africans want to be citizens of Transkei, Ciskei, Mozambique and Zimbabwe?

Or did they want to be equal citizens in their own undivided historical homeland?

Do Palestinians in refugee camps in Syria, Lebannon, Egypt want to become Syrians, Lebanese or do they want to at least have the right to be equal citizens of their own unified historical homeland?

Jordan gave jordanian citizenship to millions of arabs from Palestine.

Ask the new Jordanian "citizens" if they are willing to give up their historical right to their homeland.

 

[José]

Hell ask Palestinians in refugee camps around Hebron if they are willing to give up their right to live in Acre in exchange for the part of their homeland Oslo promised them.

 

[Coyote]

It is a tragedy that the countries wherein they live in refugee
camps refused to take them in and give them citizenship.​

If the US Message Board existed in 1985 I wonder if you would be demanding Zimbabwe, Botswana and Mozambique to give citizenship to millions of black citizens of Transkei, Ciskei and Kwazulu instead of demanding the south african leaders in Pretoria to dismantle the pathetic farce of the black "republics" and simply give south african citizenship to the "citizens" of the Bantustans.

Were they residing those countries in refugee camps?

In the case of the Palestinians, refugee camps is a propaganda term. They live just as other poor Arabs in those countries live.

They do NOT live as other poor Arabs. They lack citizenship and with that, the fundamental rights, including the right to work, that comes with citizenship. What rights they get depend what country their camp is in. No citizenship...no papers. That means when ISIS and civil war are tearing a country apart, you can’t flee. What country will give you admittance with out papersor nationality? That is what the Syrian Palestinian refugees discovered. And hundreds starved to death because they were caught between a border and ISIS.

Maybe people ought to think a moment before it is all propaganda. I suggest you join our friend Rigby in education,

 

[Coyote]

Were they residing those countries in refugee camps?

​

Did black south africans want to be citizens of Transkei, Ciskei, Mozambique and Zimbabwe?

Or did they want to be equal citizens in their own undivided historical homeland?

Do Palestinians in refugee camps in Syria, Lebannon, Egypt want to become Syrians, Lebanese or do they want to at least have the right to be equal citizens of their own unified historical homeland?

Jordan gave jordanian citizenship to millions of arabs from Palestine.

Ask the new Jordanian "citizens" if they are willing to give up their historical right to their homeland.

Why not ask them if they want citizenship and full rights now, in the country in which they reside?

 

[Shusha]

How distinct is distinct enough? And..what is the cut off...when has enough time passed for a group to be considered legitimate. The Palestinians have been in the process of creating a distinct identity for some time now, based on their heritage and more strongly defined by their conflict with the Jews, Nakbah, and a life defined as a stateless people. It has created a distinct identity that is not that of other Arabs. They have a right to it. What right do others have to delegitimize them.

I will go back to what I said earlier and have said many times: why is it necessary to deny or marginalize the identity of Palestinians in order to promote the rights of the Jewish people? And the reverse is also true: why is it necessary to deny the rights of the Jewish people in order to support the rights of the Palestinian people, because that routinely happens as well.

It would be good if we could start from a mutual recognition of two peoples, with rights to the same area, and work out from there, recognizing that the expression of those rights (but not the recognition) is also tied to the ability to share peaceably the same territory. And I recognize that is the framework you come from Shusha, but I do not see it in the others.

Well, for all that you and I argue about this, we both actually agree on everything that is important -- two peoples, two separate self-determinations, both legitimate.

 

[Coyote]

How distinct is distinct enough? And..what is the cut off...when has enough time passed for a group to be considered legitimate. The Palestinians have been in the process of creating a distinct identity for some time now, based on their heritage and more strongly defined by their conflict with the Jews, Nakbah, and a life defined as a stateless people. It has created a distinct identity that is not that of other Arabs. They have a right to it. What right do others have to delegitimize them.

I will go back to what I said earlier and have said many times: why is it necessary to deny or marginalize the identity of Palestinians in order to promote the rights of the Jewish people? And the reverse is also true: why is it necessary to deny the rights of the Jewish people in order to support the rights of the Palestinian people, because that routinely happens as well.

It would be good if we could start from a mutual recognition of two peoples, with rights to the same area, and work out from there, recognizing that the expression of those rights (but not the recognition) is also tied to the ability to share peaceably the same territory. And I recognize that is the framework you come from Shusha, but I do not see it in the others.

Well, for all that you and I argue about this, we both actually agree on everything that is important -- two peoples, two separate self-determinations, both legitimate.

And peaceable coexistence

 

[P F Tinmore]

"Stateless" is a foreign political opinion enforced at the point of a gun.

No. It is a human rights tragedy.

It is a tragedy that the countries wherein they live in refugee camps refused to take them in and give them citizenship. Because those in Syria had no papers, they couldn’t even flee ISIS, no country would give them shelter. It is shameful.

That's because allowing them to assimilate would be a betrayal of the "cause" of Palestinians nationalism. The myth that these are refugees is essential to the case against Israel; the more these fake refugees suffer, the better it is for the "cause".

They are not fake refugees.

Of course they are fake. No where else in the world would the grandchildren of an itinerant Egyptian farm worker who lived in what became Israel for a couple of years before fleeing from the war be called a Palestinian refugee. If Israel were not a Jewish state, the notion would have been laughed out of the UN.

Most had long standing ties in Palestine. And even for those who were not, so what? Does that alter the fact they were driven off their land and are stateless?

Does that alter the fact they were driven off their land and are stateless?

I can't find any legal proceedings for that to happen.

 

[José]

Why not ask them if they want citizenship and
full rights now, in the country in which they reside?

​

Jordan did just that 70 years ago, but strangely enough, the piece of paper didn't stop the new jordanian "citizens" from flocking to Allenby Bridge by the thousands (from 1967 to 2019) to demand their right to live in their homeland.

COYOTE MEET ALLENBY BRIDGE, THE DE FACTO BORDER BETWEEN ISRAEL AND JORDAN​

THE SITE OF HUNDREDS OF MASS PROTESTS BY JORDANIAN
"CITIZENS" DEMANDING THEIR RIGHT TO LIVE IN THEIR HOMELAND​

​

 

[Shusha]

COYOTE MEET ALLENBY BRIDGE, THE DE FACTO BORDER BETWEEN ISRAEL AND JORDAN

Also, the de jure border between Israel and Jordan.

 

[José]

Also, the de jure border between Israel and Jordan.​

​

So true...

And this tells us a lot about the odds of the shambolic, illegitimate, (eternally) future state of Palestine ever seeing the light of day.

 

[toomuchtime_]

It is a tragedy that the countries wherein they live in refugee
camps refused to take them in and give them citizenship.​

If the US Message Board existed in 1985 I wonder if you would be demanding Zimbabwe, Botswana and Mozambique to give citizenship to millions of black citizens of Transkei, Ciskei and Kwazulu instead of demanding the south african leaders in Pretoria to dismantle the pathetic farce of the black "republics" and simply give south african citizenship to the "citizens" of the Bantustans.

Were they residing those countries in refugee camps?

In the case of the Palestinians, refugee camps is a propaganda term. They live just as other poor Arabs in those countries live.

Tell that to the Palestinian refugees in Syria who couldn’t flee with the Syrians.

Arab Countries Are Forcing Palestinian Exiles Back Into Syria

There appear to be no limits to the sufferings other Arabs are willing to inflict on the so called Palestinians in their countries, but that in no way makes the grandchildren of those who left Israel in 1948 refugees.

 

[toomuchtime_]

"Stateless" is a foreign political opinion enforced at the point of a gun.

No. It is a human rights tragedy.

It is a tragedy that the countries wherein they live in refugee camps refused to take them in and give them citizenship. Because those in Syria had no papers, they couldn’t even flee ISIS, no country would give them shelter. It is shameful.

That's because allowing them to assimilate would be a betrayal of the "cause" of Palestinians nationalism. The myth that these are refugees is essential to the case against Israel; the more these fake refugees suffer, the better it is for the "cause".

They are not fake refugees.

Of course they are fake. No where else in the world would the grandchildren of an itinerant Egyptian farm worker who lived in what became Israel for a couple of years before fleeing from the war be called a Palestinian refugee. If Israel were not a Jewish state, the notion would have been laughed out of the UN.

Most had long standing ties in Palestine. And even for those who were not, so what? Does that alter the fact they were driven off their land and are stateless?

Very few of the so called Palestinians who are alive today have long standing ties to what is now Israel and very few were driven off. Their suffering today is very much caused by people like you who cherish it as a weapon to use against Israel. They are not exactly stateless. They are all citizens of the Palestinian Authority which operates in most important ways as a state.

 

[toomuchtime_]

It is a tragedy that the countries wherein they live in refugee
camps refused to take them in and give them citizenship.​

If the US Message Board existed in 1985 I wonder if you would be demanding Zimbabwe, Botswana and Mozambique to give citizenship to millions of black citizens of Transkei, Ciskei and Kwazulu instead of demanding the south african leaders in Pretoria to dismantle the pathetic farce of the black "republics" and simply give south african citizenship to the "citizens" of the Bantustans.

Were they residing those countries in refugee camps?

In the case of the Palestinians, refugee camps is a propaganda term. They live just as other poor Arabs in those countries live.

They do NOT live as other poor Arabs. They lack citizenship and with that, the fundamental rights, including the right to work, that comes with citizenship. What rights they get depend what country their camp is in. No citizenship...no papers. That means when ISIS and civil war are tearing a country apart, you can’t flee. What country will give you admittance with out papersor nationality? That is what the Syrian Palestinian refugees discovered. And hundreds starved to death because they were caught between a border and ISIS.

Maybe people ought to think a moment before it is all propaganda. I suggest you join our friend Rigby in education,

My point, of course, was that living in a so called refugee camp is no different from living in other poor areas of these countries. The fact that other Arabs treat them with such cruelty and contempt does not make them refugees from Israel.