Are fourth-graders too young to fail?

[Skull Pilot]

Back to the OP - if a child cannot read or write in 4th grade, should he or she be promoted? The general rule of thumb here is no retention past third grade. Is that good policy?

Yes.

First, if a kid in the 4th grade cannot read or write, then they need a heluva lotta remediation. This is gonna be necessary in whatever grade they are placed. Why not let it happen in 5th grade?

Why not just grade on a curve?

that way the only students who get shit on for all their hard work are the good students while the rest of the class skates by leeching off of someone else's efforts.. Kinda like the USA today

nothing irks me more than social promotion and grade scaling.

 

[Samson]

Back to the OP - if a child cannot read or write in 4th grade, should he or she be promoted? The general rule of thumb here is no retention past third grade. Is that good policy?

Yes.

First, if a kid in the 4th grade cannot read or write, then they need a heluva lotta remediation. This is gonna be necessary in whatever grade they are placed. Why not let it happen in 5th grade?

Why not just grade on a curve?

that way the only students who get shit on for all their hard work are the good students while the rest of the class skates by leeching off of someone else's efforts.. Kinda like the USA today

nothing irks me more than social promotion and grade scaling.

Well, if you have a better idea.....?

My guess is that you wouldn't appreciate the higher state and local taxes you would pay to ....what?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Yes.

First, if a kid in the 4th grade cannot read or write, then they need a heluva lotta remediation. This is gonna be necessary in whatever grade they are placed. Why not let it happen in 5th grade?

Why not just grade on a curve?

that way the only students who get shit on for all their hard work are the good students while the rest of the class skates by leeching off of someone else's efforts.. Kinda like the USA today

nothing irks me more than social promotion and grade scaling.

Well, if you have a better idea.....?

My guess is that you wouldn't appreciate the higher state and local taxes you would pay to ....what?

So is it your contention that these kids are utterly incapable of learning and must be given false grades so as to make their lives tolerable?

Or maybe it's the fucking teachers.

And really teaching a rug rat to read write and do basic math is not a very expensive endeavor. Only the government and teachers' unions would have you believe that

 

[chanel]

I don't understand why a child can't read by fourth grade unless they have a SIGNIFICANT learning disability. But I do know that truancy is rarely addressed in the younger grades in my district. It is at the high school level because it is law. I have a 20 year old student in his sixth year of high school. He told me he missed 100 days of school when he was in 6th grade but was promoted anyway. It has been difficult for him to attend regularly in high school. Duh.

I think too many teachers feel sorry for kids from dysfunctional homes so they push them along. But it's not doing them any favors in my opinion.

 

[Foxfyre]

I don't understand why a child can't read by fourth grade unless they have a SIGNIFICANT learning disability. But I do know that truancy is rarely addressed in the younger grades in my district. It is at the high school level because it is law. I have a 20 year old student in his sixth year of high school. He told me he missed 100 days of school when he was in 6th grade but was promoted anyway. It has been difficult for him to attend regularly in high school. Duh.

I think too many teachers feel sorry for kids from dysfunctional homes so they push them along. But it's not doing them any favors in my opinion.

I had classmates who were held back at some point in their school life. Every one of them finished highschool and went onto college. My granddaughter was barely old enough to attend first grade and it turned out that she was not ready. Her parents wisely requested that she repeat first grade before she moved on. It was the right thing to do and she had no further problems in school.

I still recall one famous Texas Senator who had to repeat something like third, fifth and eighth grades but went on to achieve a PhD in economics.

But in defense of what Samson was saying, things are different now. Until we dig in our heels and demand that we reinstate some old fashioned American values, our public education system probably isn't going to improve. You know, values like parents should parent their kids or be so socially stigmatized they'll be shamed into doing that? Values like failure should be taught as opportunity to learn, pick yourself up, and try again. The Wright Brothers failed more than a 100 times before they finally achieved a succssful flight. Values that excellence and real achievement should be rewarded?

I have worked with kids enough to know that you don't take no for an answer just because the kid thinks he or she can't do it or that it isn't worth it. You show them that they can do it and it is worth it. And you celebrate with them when they achieve it. And when the kid who has been doing his bestpulling Bs and Cs the whole term, finally gets that hard earned coveted A, the pride in his or her eyes is worth evey bit of the trouble.

I suspect he'll never again believe that he is incapable of doing what he actually can do either.

 

[Samson]

Why not just grade on a curve?

that way the only students who get shit on for all their hard work are the good students while the rest of the class skates by leeching off of someone else's efforts.. Kinda like the USA today

nothing irks me more than social promotion and grade scaling.

Well, if you have a better idea.....?

My guess is that you wouldn't appreciate the higher state and local taxes you would pay to ....what?

So is it your contention that these kids are utterly incapable of learning and must be given false grades so as to make their lives tolerable?

Or maybe it's the fucking teachers.

And really teaching a rug rat to read write and do basic math is not a very expensive endeavor. Only the government and teachers' unions would have you believe that

It is my contention that the easiest and cheapest solution to a educating a kid is to try until they are 14. Keeping them in 4th grade is counter-productive.

 

[Samson]

I don't understand why a child can't read by fourth grade unless they have a SIGNIFICANT learning disability. But I do know that truancy is rarely addressed in the younger grades in my district. It is at the high school level because it is law. I have a 20 year old student in his sixth year of high school. He told me he missed 100 days of school when he was in 6th grade but was promoted anyway. It has been difficult for him to attend regularly in high school. Duh.

I think too many teachers feel sorry for kids from dysfunctional homes so they push them along. But it's not doing them any favors in my opinion.

Agreed: there's something seriously wrong if a kid cannot read by 4th grade.

But I don't advocate holding the kid back.

I do advocate limiting the eligibility age for free public education to 14.

 

[syrenn]

I don't understand why a child can't read by fourth grade unless they have a SIGNIFICANT learning disability. But I do know that truancy is rarely addressed in the younger grades in my district. It is at the high school level because it is law. I have a 20 year old student in his sixth year of high school. He told me he missed 100 days of school when he was in 6th grade but was promoted anyway. It has been difficult for him to attend regularly in high school. Duh.

I think too many teachers feel sorry for kids from dysfunctional homes so they push them along. But it's not doing them any favors in my opinion.

Agreed: there's something seriously wrong if a kid cannot read by 4th grade.

But I don't advocate holding the kid back.

I do advocate limiting the eligibility age for free public education to 14.

Only 14? Im up for about 12 being the cut off of free public school for special ed. children.

 

[Samson]

I don't understand why a child can't read by fourth grade unless they have a SIGNIFICANT learning disability. But I do know that truancy is rarely addressed in the younger grades in my district. It is at the high school level because it is law. I have a 20 year old student in his sixth year of high school. He told me he missed 100 days of school when he was in 6th grade but was promoted anyway. It has been difficult for him to attend regularly in high school. Duh.

I think too many teachers feel sorry for kids from dysfunctional homes so they push them along. But it's not doing them any favors in my opinion.

Agreed: there's something seriously wrong if a kid cannot read by 4th grade.

But I don't advocate holding the kid back.

I do advocate limiting the eligibility age for free public education to 14.

Only 14? Im up for about 12 being the cut off of free public school for special ed. children.

You cannot discriminate against SpEd.

 

[Polk]

I do advocate limiting the eligibility age for free public education to 14.

14 year old aren't ready for university.

 

[syrenn]

Agreed: there's something seriously wrong if a kid cannot read by 4th grade.

But I don't advocate holding the kid back.

I do advocate limiting the eligibility age for free public education to 14.

Only 14? Im up for about 12 being the cut off of free public school for special ed. children.

You cannot discriminate against SpEd.

Who said anything about discriminating? If by the time they are 12 and are not preforming then its time for the parents to start taking responsibility for their children. Special ed or not.

 

[Samson]

Only 14? Im up for about 12 being the cut off of free public school for special ed. children.

You cannot discriminate against SpEd.

Who said anything about discriminating? If by the time they are 12 and are not preforming then its time for the parents to start taking responsibility for their children. Special ed or not.

YOU said: "Im up for about 12 being the cut off of free public school for special ed. children."

At any rate, I disagree because historically, public schooling has been offered through age 14. This reflects the age at which most kids have learned the basics.

 

[Samson]

I do advocate limiting the eligibility age for free public education to 14.

14 year old aren't ready for university.

I didn't say ALL were.

But some are ready.

Others can go to prep schools

Still others can pick cabbages, or raise their kids, or watch cartoons, or go to government subsidized technical schools.

 

[Bill O'Olberman]

I assume you would have worked just as hard in the future had you received a "50" on the test?

Or, would you have said, "ah, I'm really happy with the 50, and I think I'll just blow off future assignments so that my average will be a 50!! After all, a 50 is much better than 0!!"

As a true bullshiter and underachiever, I would say that it depends on what percentage of my final grade these quizes or test were and if the teacher was generous enough to drop the lowest grade. If these were like the daily/weekly quizes that test if I actually read the material and was only 10% or so of my final grade, yeah, Id be okay with a couple 50s on these quizes but i wouldnt want any zeros.

I dont like the concept of giving the kid a 60 as they should learn that they shouldnt expect to be given anything from anyone else. Once they get older they should understand that nobody owes them anything, maybe with the exception of their parents.

 

[Samson]

I assume you would have worked just as hard in the future had you received a "50" on the test?

Or, would you have said, "ah, I'm really happy with the 50, and I think I'll just blow off future assignments so that my average will be a 50!! After all, a 50 is much better than 0!!"

As a true bullshiter and underachiever, I would say that it depends on what percentage of my final grade these quizes or test were and if the teacher was generous enough to drop the lowest grade. If these were like the daily/weekly quizes that test if I actually read the material and was only 10% or so of my final grade, yeah, Id be okay with a couple 50s on these quizes but i wouldnt want any zeros.

I dont like the concept of giving the kid a 60 as they should learn that they shouldnt expect to be given anything from anyone else. Once they get older they should understand that nobody owes them anything, maybe with the exception of their parents.

There's many ways to play with averages, some of which you mentioned.

For example, I'd never simply "Give" a 50 for absolutely nothing. At minimum, they'd have to sign a blank paper, which I'd then file for conferences with their parents.

Nothing like a stack of blank papers with 50's on them to make parents, irate about your "unfair grading," STFU.

 

[Amanda]

I do advocate limiting the eligibility age for free public education to 14.

14 year old aren't ready for university.

Only because they're trained not to be.

 

[IanC]

I assume you would have worked just as hard in the future had you received a "50" on the test?

Or, would you have said, "ah, I'm really happy with the 50, and I think I'll just blow off future assignments so that my average will be a 50!! After all, a 50 is much better than 0!!"

As a true bullshiter and underachiever, I would say that it depends on what percentage of my final grade these quizes or test were and if the teacher was generous enough to drop the lowest grade. If these were like the daily/weekly quizes that test if I actually read the material and was only 10% or so of my final grade, yeah, Id be okay with a couple 50s on these quizes but i wouldnt want any zeros.

I dont like the concept of giving the kid a 60 as they should learn that they shouldnt expect to be given anything from anyone else. Once they get older they should understand that nobody owes them anything, maybe with the exception of their parents.

There's many ways to play with averages, some of which you mentioned.

For example, I'd never simply "Give" a 50 for absolutely nothing. At minimum, they'd have to sign a blank paper, which I'd then file for conferences with their parents.

Nothing like a stack of blank papers with 50's on them to make parents, irate about your "unfair grading," STFU.

Not unlike the SATs, where you get 200 points per section just for signing your name.

Lol, I also think it is funny when the posters here get irate over the actual number assigned as a pass rate. 25% or 75% could mean the same thing, depending on the content of the testing. And, of course, 60% in one school probably is different than 60% in a different school.

 

[Samson]

I do advocate limiting the eligibility age for free public education to 14.

14 year old aren't ready for university.

Only because they're trained not to be.

I was thinking that Polk meant "[emotionally] ready."

But, your point is well taken: some 14 year olds can already do the work of a college freshman quite successfully, and probably more could if they didn't see 4 years of highschool looming before them, with its time wasting sociological-pedagogy bullshit.

 

[Foxfyre]

I had a good friend who taught in Australia a couple of decades or so ago. He described their system after a certain level as a 'dual system'. All kids were required to stay in school until they reached the age of majority or graduated, whichever came first, but those who were obviously not academically motivated and not college bound were busted over to vocational school where they spent their school years learning to read, write, do basic math and learn marketable skills in one or more trades. He liked the system a lot.

I don't know if they still do it that way there. My friend passed away some years ago. But it sure made a lot of sense to me.

And sometimes I wish we would give our own kids sufficient incentive to get the work done and earn a diploma. Maybe make the requisite for an unrestricted driver's license a highschool diploma or Age 18 whichever came first. Students could qualify for a restricted license only by achieving a minimum gpa. Or some such as that.

There's probably a lot of flaws in that, but geez there should be something we could do to help kids want to learn the subject matter?

 

[Samson]

I had a good friend who taught in Australia a couple of decades or so ago. He described their system after a certain level as a 'dual system'. All kids were required to stay in school until they reached the age of majority or graduated, whichever came first, but those who were obviously not academically motivated and not college bound were busted over to vocational school where they spent their school years learning to read, write, do basic math and learn marketable skills in one or more trades. He liked the system a lot.

I don't know if they still do it that way there. My friend passed away some years ago. But it sure made a lot of sense to me.

And sometimes I wish we would give our own kids sufficient incentive to get the work done and earn a diploma. Maybe make the requisite for an unrestricted driver's license a highschool diploma or Age 18 whichever came first. Students could qualify for a restricted license only by achieving a minimum gpa. Or some such as that.

There's probably a lot of flaws in that, but geez there should be something we could do to help kids want to learn the subject matter?

Almost every "industrialized" nation has a system similar to the one you described in Australia: which is yet another reason I find it grating every time I hear some moron comparing our "education system" (there actually is no US System), to another country's.

You either LEARN a trade

OR LEARN in a University.

But warehousing yourself for 4 years playing football and trying to add fractions between 2 month layoffs isn't part of any other nation's program.