Arctic sea ice thinner than ever before

[FactFinder]

I'll highlight the important parts so your closed minded pea brain can attempt to understand the facts.

What is the significance of the disintegration of the northern portion of the Wilkins Ice Shelf? The collapse of the ice shelf will not contribute to sea level rise, since the ice had already been floating on the water. When other ice shelves such as the Larsen, have collapsed, they allowed glaciers to pump more ice into the ocean at a faster rate, which did contribute to sea level rise. The Wilkins Ice Shelf, however, does not buttress any major glacier, says Scambos. The Wilkins Ice Shelf is the tenth major ice shelf to collapse in recent times, another sign that warming temperatures are impacting Earth’s fragile cryosphere.

Try reading before you open your mouth.

Wilkins Ice Bridge Collapse : Image of the Day

Except that you ignore facts such as most of Antartica is expanding and do not for a second take in to account the known but under researched volcanic activity. Disregarding other potential causes is the pea minded approach. The global temperature has only risen .7 degrees in a hundred years and has been cooling since 2001. How pea minded is it to take as gospel AGW as the cause of Arctic thinning?

Because I study all data. I know about the volcanoes. With a La Nina, the snow pack has been very high in parts of the North (and North West) the last 2-5 years. Antarctic has been holding steady, really, not increasing (2-7% increase at most), it depends on how far back you want to go comparing data. You forgot to put a C behind the .7 degree.

You can't know much about them because they are under researched. The fellow from Wood's Hole last summer was astonished to find volcanoes at the depth he did because the consensus was that water pressure was too great for these massive eruptions to occur.

 

[code1211]

If the arctic is warming from below due to volcanoes there will likely be little effect from the particulates.[/QUOTE]

.........

If that is so, then you are probably right. Is the underwater eruptions sequence a new thing or has it been going on for decades or centuries or millenia?

Personnally, I feel like the ocean currents are more responsible for Arctic Sea ice melting than any other factor because the air up there is always pretty cool and in the Antarctic, land based ice is pretty stable over the last several million years.

That said, though, we've stayed within a 2 degree range of temperature for about 11,000 years. We are currently smack dab in the middle of that range. One degree down globally and we will suffer famine of biblical proportion. One degree up and not much happens at all.

All things considered, I hope for stability or rise.

 

[Old Rocks]

Except that you ignore facts such as most of Antartica is expanding and do not for a second take in to account the known but under researched volcanic activity. Disregarding other potential causes is the pea minded approach. The global temperature has only risen .7 degrees in a hundred years and has been cooling since 2001. How pea minded is it to take as gospel AGW as the cause of Arctic thinning?

Because I study all data. I know about the volcanoes. With a La Nina, the snow pack has been very high in parts of the North (and North West) the last 2-5 years. Antarctic has been holding steady, really, not increasing (2-7% increase at most), it depends on how far back you want to go comparing data. You forgot to put a C behind the .7 degree.

You can't know much about them because they are under researched. The fellow from Wood's Hole last summer was astonished to find volcanoes at the depth he did because the consensus was that water pressure was too great for these massive eruptions to occur.

And the researcher from Woods Hole also stated that said volcanism was not affecting the sea ice.

News Release : Geologists Discover Signs of Volcanoes Blowing their Tops in the Deep Ocean : Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
NOTE: Many readers have inquired about whether the Arctic volcanism described here might be a cause of the melting of the polar ice cap. The answer is "no," and you can learn more here.


A research team led by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (WHOI) has uncovered evidence of explosive volcanic eruptions deep beneath the ice-covered surface of the Arctic Ocean. Such violent eruptions of splintered, fragmented rock—known as pyroclastic deposits—were not thought possible at great ocean depths because of the intense weight and pressure of water and because of the composition of seafloor magma and rock.

Researchers found jagged, glassy rock fragments spread out over a 10 square kilometer (4 square mile) area around a series of small volcanic craters about 4,000 meters (2.5 miles) below the sea surface. The volcanoes lie along the Gakkel Ridge, a remote and mostly unexplored section of the mid-ocean ridge system that runs through the Arctic Ocean.

“These are the first pyroclastic deposits we've ever found in such deep water, at oppressive pressures that inhibit the formation of steam, and many people thought this was not possible,” said WHOI geophysicist Rob Reves-Sohn, lead author and chief scientist for the Arctic Gakkel Vents Expedition (AGAVE) of July 2007. “This means that a tremendous blast of CO2 was released into the water column during the explosive eruption.”

The paper, which was co-authored by 22 investigators from nine institutions in four countries, was published in the June 26 issue of the journal Nature.

You see, if you actually do the research, instead of blindly repeating misinformation, you may learn something. Maybe

 

[Old Rocks]

There is an interesting sidelight to this. For a long time it has been assumed that the violent volcanic eruptions were caused by water that was trapped in the magma. There is a new hypothesis that the water that drives these explosions is the result chemical changes caused by the crystallization of minerals within the magma. The steam from the water would be formed very quickly and the reaction more violent than that from entrapped water.

 

[FactFinder]

If the arctic is warming from below due to volcanoes there will likely be little effect from the particulates.

.........

If that is so, then you are probably right. Is the underwater eruptions sequence a new thing or has it been going on for decades or centuries or millenia?

Personnally, I feel like the ocean currents are more responsible for Arctic Sea ice melting than any other factor because the air up there is always pretty cool and in the Antarctic, land based ice is pretty stable over the last several million years.

That said, though, we've stayed within a 2 degree range of temperature for about 11,000 years. We are currently smack dab in the middle of that range. One degree down globally and we will suffer famine of biblical proportion. One degree up and not much happens at all.

All things considered, I hope for stability or rise.[/QUOTE]

I'm, with you on that one. A bit of warming would generally be a good thing. Too bad it is not really happening. I could accept the possibility of ocean currents or volcanic activity. The Wood's Hole folks went looking for the volbanoes due to surface evidence of the eruptions. They found eruptions of the magnitude of Vesuvius (spelling?)

I think they really don't have much evidence if it is new or not, but ocean currents or valcanoes carry greater logic than air temp.

 

[FactFinder]

Because I study all data. I know about the volcanoes. With a La Nina, the snow pack has been very high in parts of the North (and North West) the last 2-5 years. Antarctic has been holding steady, really, not increasing (2-7% increase at most), it depends on how far back you want to go comparing data. You forgot to put a C behind the .7 degree.

You can't know much about them because they are under researched. The fellow from Wood's Hole last summer was astonished to find volcanoes at the depth he did because the consensus was that water pressure was too great for these massive eruptions to occur.

And the researcher from Woods Hole also stated that said volcanism was not affecting the sea ice.

News Release : Geologists Discover Signs of Volcanoes Blowing their Tops in the Deep Ocean : Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
NOTE: Many readers have inquired about whether the Arctic volcanism described here might be a cause of the melting of the polar ice cap. The answer is "no," and you can learn more here.


A research team led by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (WHOI) has uncovered evidence of explosive volcanic eruptions deep beneath the ice-covered surface of the Arctic Ocean. Such violent eruptions of splintered, fragmented rock—known as pyroclastic deposits—were not thought possible at great ocean depths because of the intense weight and pressure of water and because of the composition of seafloor magma and rock.

Researchers found jagged, glassy rock fragments spread out over a 10 square kilometer (4 square mile) area around a series of small volcanic craters about 4,000 meters (2.5 miles) below the sea surface. The volcanoes lie along the Gakkel Ridge, a remote and mostly unexplored section of the mid-ocean ridge system that runs through the Arctic Ocean.

“These are the first pyroclastic deposits we've ever found in such deep water, at oppressive pressures that inhibit the formation of steam, and many people thought this was not possible,” said WHOI geophysicist Rob Reves-Sohn, lead author and chief scientist for the Arctic Gakkel Vents Expedition (AGAVE) of July 2007. “This means that a tremendous blast of CO2 was released into the water column during the explosive eruption.”

The paper, which was co-authored by 22 investigators from nine institutions in four countries, was published in the June 26 issue of the journal Nature.

You see, if you actually do the research, instead of blindly repeating misinformation, you may learn something. Maybe

His assumptions also led him to believe that the volcanoes were impossible to begin with. So he made another assumption. Without extensive study of the Gakel ridge his assumptions carry no greater validity than my own.

 

[Old Rocks]

News Release : Geologists Discover Signs of Volcanoes Blowing their Tops in the Deep Ocean : Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution


Do explosive volcanic eruptions on the seafloor of the Arctic Ocean contribute to the melting of the Arctic ice cap?
No, not at all. The Arctic Ocean is a huge reservoir of water that can readily absorb and disperse the heat and volatile gases from the volcanic eruptions at the seafloor.

To get a sense of how readily and easily the ocean disperses heat from the Earth’s crust, look at underwater volcanoes and hydrothermal vents in other regions of the ocean. At hydrothermal vents, scientists have found mineral-rich fluids with temperatures approaching 400°C (750°F) spewing out of the Earth. But if you measure temperatures just a few meters above or to the side of a vent, water temperatures return to just 2° to 3°C (35° to 37°F). And if you are floating on the ocean surface and a deep-sea volcano or vent erupts thousands of meters below, you wouldn’t detect a change in ocean temperatures.

The water in the Arctic Ocean is stratified—layered like a cake—with lighter layers lying atop denser layers of water, like oil atop water. (Colder and/or saltier seawater is denser than warmer and/or less salty seawater.) Waters in the Arctic depths remain trapped near the bottom. They do not mix much with surface waters. Almost no heat is transmitted all the way up to the underside of the ice.

During many Arctic expeditions, scientists have studied the movement of water, heat, and chemicals in the depths of the Arctic Ocean . They have found that heat and other emissions from the Arctic seafloor do not rise much higher than 500 to 1000 meters up from the ocean bottom. The volcanoes under the Arctic sea ice are 3,000 to 4,000 meters (approximately 2.5 miles) below.

For further reading
Arctic Ocean Circulation Primer
Arctic Ocean Circulation Primer : Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution

A New Way to Monitor Changes in the Arctic
WHOI : Oceanus : A New Way to Monitor Changes in the Arctic

Is Global Warming Changing the Arctic? WHOI : Oceanus : Is Global Warming Changing the Arctic?

The deep waters of the Eurasian Basin, Arctic Ocean: Geothermal heat flow, mixing and renewal From the journal Deep Sea Research
ScienceDirect - Deep Sea Research Part I: Oceanographic Research Papers : The deep waters of the Eurasian Basin, Arctic Ocean: Geothermal heat flow, mixing and renewal

What’s Up with Volcanoes Under Arctic Sea Ice? What’s Up With Volcanoes Under Arctic Sea Ice - Dot Earth Blog - NYTimes.com

Dot Earth: Fire Under North Pole Ice Fire Under North Pole Ice - More Views - Dot Earth Blog - NYTimes.com

Since these volcanics are on the Gakkel Ridge, there has been volcanism going on there for a long time.

 

[FactFinder]

Still no extensive study of the Gakkel Ridge. The part that runs under the Arctic. So its all conjecture.

 

[Old Rocks]

Still no extensive study of the Gakkel Ridge. The part that runs under the Arctic. So its all conjecture.

http://epic.awi.de/Publications/Polarforsch1999_30.pdf

The Laptev megabasin is the eastern link of the North Siberian
province. It is a continuation of the Eurasian oceanic basin on
the shelf and appears to open to the central ocean. Following
the shape of the Laptev Sea, the megabasin is broadly isometric
and has dimensions of 600 km by latitude and 900 km by
longitude. The basin-forming succession is terrigenous and is
dated as Late Mesozoic-Cenozoic. The age of the base of the
oldest local depocentres is apparently Aptian. The megabasin
exhibits extreme variability in thickness, structural character,
age, and composition of sedirnentary fill as well in basement
structure and relief. In areas of the megabasin underlain by
pre-Riphean basement, the sedimentary cover is increased by
the addition of mostly carbonate Paleozoic and early Mesozoic
strata of the intermediate structural stage. The total thickness
of the sedimentary cover in such areas exceeds 10 km. The
web of branching grabens in the basement and sedimentary
cover is characteristic of the internal structure of the Laptev
megabasin. The lower units of the basin are mainly confined to
grabens. Laptev Sea grabens are usually regarded as a projection
of the Gakkel Ridge spreading zone on to the shelf and a
link between the Eurasian and North American plates.

 

[Old Rocks]

Science and the Sea - Gakkel Ridge

Polar Discovery :: Expedition 2: Arctic Seafloor

 

[FactFinder]

That's a start they will have to do one hell of a lot more to have any accurate idea of the volcanic activity occurring under the glaciers. Oh last I checked Siberia was not part of the Arctic.

 

[Chris]

That's a start they will have to do one hell of a lot more to have any accurate idea of the volcanic activity occurring under the glaciers. Oh last I checked Siberia was not part of the Arctic.

Your arguments are lame.

It ain't volcanoes, my friend.

 

[elvis]

That's a start they will have to do one hell of a lot more to have any accurate idea of the volcanic activity occurring under the glaciers. Oh last I checked Siberia was not part of the Arctic.

Your arguments are lame.

It ain't volcanoes, my friend.

Yeah, just ask Al.

 

[Old Rocks]

That's a start they will have to do one hell of a lot more to have any accurate idea of the volcanic activity occurring under the glaciers. Oh last I checked Siberia was not part of the Arctic.

Your arguments are lame.

It ain't volcanoes, my friend.

Yeah, just ask Al.

Well, no, ask the geologists that are exploring that area.

 

[Old Rocks]

That's a start they will have to do one hell of a lot more to have any accurate idea of the volcanic activity occurring under the glaciers. Oh last I checked Siberia was not part of the Arctic.

Well, had you bothered to read the article, you would have known what the North Siberian Province refered to.

 

[krotchdog]

old rock is a scurrilous lying crock of shit (this is not a flame, its old rocks words with old rocks name placed in front)

old crock knowingly posted false information in environment under climate change

how can I address old crocks post here, I will have to spend hours looking for the answer like before and than I find out old rock willingly and knowingly posted a false report, not only did old man post the false report but old man had a rebutal ready in case he got found out

this kind of stuff makes me sick, further look at the vile old man says about others, and than we are suppose to take his word and if we dont we get old crokes vile mouth


http://www.usmessageboard.com/environment/73527-climate-change-the-simple-argument.html


old rock is a scurrilous lying crock of shit (this is not a flame, its old rocks words with old rocks name placed in front)

 

[code1211]

That's a start they will have to do one hell of a lot more to have any accurate idea of the volcanic activity occurring under the glaciers. Oh last I checked Siberia was not part of the Arctic.

Your arguments are lame.

It ain't volcanoes, my friend.

...........

What is it?

 

[code1211]

News Release : Geologists Discover Signs of Volcanoes Blowing their Tops in the Deep Ocean : Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution


Do explosive volcanic eruptions on the seafloor of the Arctic Ocean contribute to the melting of the Arctic ice cap?
No, not at all. The Arctic Ocean is a huge reservoir of water that can readily absorb and disperse the heat and volatile gases from the volcanic eruptions at the seafloor.

..............

If I allow my car to idle in the driveway, I am contributing toward Global Warming and therefore helping to melt the ice caps. If a volcano erupts in the Arctic, does it contribute to Global Warming and therefore help to melt the Ice Caps? "No, not at all."

Is it just me or is there something amiss in one of these statements?

 

[FactFinder]

News Release : Geologists Discover Signs of Volcanoes Blowing their Tops in the Deep Ocean : Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution


Do explosive volcanic eruptions on the seafloor of the Arctic Ocean contribute to the melting of the Arctic ice cap?
No, not at all. The Arctic Ocean is a huge reservoir of water that can readily absorb and disperse the heat and volatile gases from the volcanic eruptions at the seafloor.

..............

If I allow my car to idle in the driveway, I am contributing toward Global Warming and therefore helping to melt the ice caps. If a volcano erupts in the Arctic, does it contribute to Global Warming and therefore help to melt the Ice Caps? "No, not at all."

Is it just me or is there something amiss in one of these statements?

For the sake of AGW the volcanoes have agreed to subvert the laws of physics and forbid their heat to rise.

 

[FactFinder]

Oops another dart in the heart of the wicked.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/21/world/21volcano.html?_r=1&refer=science

Scientists Find Active Volcano in Antarctica
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LinkedinDiggFacebookMixxMy SpaceYahoo! BuzzPermalinkBy KENNETH CHANG
Published: January 21, 2008
Here is another factor that might be contributing to the thinning of some of the Antarctica’s glaciers: volcanoes.

This is the western part. Just where the thinning has occurred. Not only doe the volcanoes warm the waters the ash on the ice causes greater heat absorption. Seems there is little to no volcanic activity in the rest of the Antarctic where the ice is thriving.