Arctic ice thins dramatically

[IanC]

hey polarbear! welcome back. always fun to read a poster who actually says something while he is insulting someone. or is it the other way around, I can never tell. anyways give em hell.

 

[westwall]

So, still the "samo-cRock" of shit going on here..day in day out.
Never mind him..how have You been...?
Did You have a chance to dust off Your rock hammer and bust some real old rocks that might have some real information inside?
Now that summer is over and we too had sub-zero temps for > 2 weeks I can squeeze out a little time to sit in front of my PC.
I spent the summer adding as much CO2 to the atmosphere as I could afford, trying to delay the arrival of winter, but to no avail.
Other than that things in Canada are getting quite pleasant again...since the liberals here got totally decimated in our last federal elections.
The new conservative majority Government`s first act was to scrap the much hated gun registry...and of course to get going on the new oil pipe-lines from Alberta to the refineries in Texas.
The few remaining left threaded wing nuts are howling because their dirty political underwear has been pulled into tight wedgies,...but no-one here cares any more about these crack pots. So now they pitch tents and "occupy" this or that...
Or so they claim. In reality they pitch tents, leave them for show in some city parks and sleep off their dope hang-overs in well heated cushy hotel rooms. These phonies are now totally outraged after a few police videos shot with thermal imaging cameras were shown on the news and you could clearly see, that almost all of tents were not occupied @ night.
Same in your face M.O. no matter if it`s "climate science", gay "rights" or whatever...
Oh yeah speaking of the latter...there is a new ice cold wind blowing too through our streets. Fags & lesbians have been informed, that freedom of speech can no longer be sabotaged with "gay right" law suits...if anyone says something that these perverts find "offensive"...
As promised during the election campaign Canada`s conservative Government is delivering after this long overdue land slide victory.
In addition to that the number of jobs has gone up to a point were some Provinces have to raid for labor from other Provinces (>30 000) ...as our Oil Industry is gearing up to supply 100 instead of just 60% of the U.S`s needs.
So how many "green" jobs has Obama delivered so far...?

You know I actually did! I and some of my friends from the Desert Research Institute trekked out to deep desert to do some digging around for a project they're working on. I'm not at liberty to relate what the work is about but it was fun to get out and bust some rock again!

I should really arrange a ride for You and Your rock hammer from AFB Trenton to AFB Thule or to CFS Alert.
The stuff You.. a fully qualified Geologist,would find, would there not just amaze You but probably me as well.
There is a lot more than just the remnants of huge Forests buried in the sands on Greenland`s and Ellesmere Island`s coast line, especially along the Nares Straight.

That would be fun! So far I've only had the pleasure of flying over Greenland on commercial jets. Getting on the ground would be an absolute treat.

 

[Old Rocks]

Hi Bi-Polar, been a long time. See that you are still the same old idiot.

 

[gslack]

Hey polarbear, don't think we've met but if oldsocks dislikes you I will consider you a good guy.. Nice to meet ya!

 

[polarbear]

Hey polarbear, don't think we've met but if oldsocks dislikes you I will consider you a good guy.. Nice to meet ya!

Likewise Sir, likewise
And Hi to IanC, glad to see You again too.
@Westwall,...:
The best way to get You up there, since most of northern Greenland & Ellesmere is difficult to access unless You are a member of the armed forces is to sneak You in as a temporary employee of a defense contractor.
The problem is, that You`ll be stuck there like everyone else for 6 Months,...like a regular military tour of duty.
And that may be for part of the (arctic) winter, when its 24/7 pitch dark and extremely brutal weather conditions.
But then again the other months You`ll have 24 hours daylight to do Your prospecting and the guys up there won`t be stingy to arrange for air/ground transportation to some real "honey-hole" sites.
There are exotic rock formations up there You won`t find so easily elsewhere.
Right now I would like to post a few numbers concerning some discrepancies in the numbers many of the latest alarmist press releases quote, concerning arctic sea ice extent.
As usual most simply quotes everyone else and most are vague about their primary data source or use the usual "NASA Scientists said.." line to butter up the credibility of their claims.
For example this guy, which was quoted here before this viglink stuff was discussed..:

The Vanishing Arctic - Stefan Rahmstorf - Project Syndicate

He claims :

In September, the sea-ice cover on the Arctic Ocean melted all the way back to the record-low level recorded in September 2007.

Then he goes on to say that this was 4.4 *10^6 squ.kms..., in September 2007.
These are the only numbers this supposedly neutral "scientist" presents us with in his entire statement.
He does not directly say, that we dropped to a minimum of 4.4 m.squkms but he did say it "melted all the way back to the record low level recorded in September 2007".
That`s not science by any stretch of imagination, but blatant spin doctoring, attempting to establish an alarming trend for the casual reader who has now already been mislead to believe that we have dropped this year to the same minimum of 4.4 million square kilometers.
And that is a lie, a very deliberate lie....plain for all to see if You take the trouble to look at the raw data yourself:
http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/seaice/extent/plot.csv

first off the minimum for 09/24/2007 was way down to 4 254 531 squkms
and secondly the minimum this year was no where near down to the level of 2007...:
09/09/2011 sea ice minimum : 4 526 875

not only have 272 344 square kilometers been conveniently swept under the rug to bolster a false statement, but yet again and most importantly a false trend has been bent into shape to fit a false statement.

Let me put this fraud into perspective.
This spin doctor let an area the size of Arizona disappear.
The term fraud does not even seem to exist in climate "science", but I`m quite sure if this trickster attempted to pull a similar stunt in a real estate deal the United States Government would certainly notice if the entire State of Arizona just disappeared.

This guy, is just as blatant ...:
Arctic Ice Coverage in Decline - NASA - NetNewsledger.com

Same M.O....! more or less. He puts NASA emblems all over his blog, including using the word NASA inside his URL and tries to dazzle the casual reader with essentially using only one single number, almost but not quite the same as the fraudster above here

Arctic sea ice extent on Sept. 9, the lowest point this year, was 4.33 million square kilometers

He lets 196 875 more square kilometers disappear at the minumum point in September this year. That "real estate deal" short changes the equivalent of the entire State of Minnesota, and then as usual expands this number swindle into yet another whole page bold print vanishing ice doomsday scenario, using the Word "NASA" and "scientists" more than a dozen times.

Amazing what these people manage to squeeze out of a single number, first by falsifying it and then adding the usual garnishments like "NASA" and "Scientists".

This is the usual crap-science, custom-tailored for the copy & paste- copy cats to spread shit it all over the internet to bolster Google ratings enough to make it useful enough for the consensus press....the same consensus press which makes a big head-line deal out of a junk of ice the size of tiny Manhattan floating in the ocean...yet the spin doctors, nor the dummies that fall for them don`t even bat an eye lid when it comes to something the size of the entire State of Arizona.

 

[skookerasbil]

Yo Polar..........wtf...........where ya been??!!! Likely frozen somewhere up there in Greenland!!

Well.......while you've been gone, Ian, wirebender and Westwall have been putting a serious hurting on the nutter contingent. IN fact, I updated the scoreboard just the other day after several threads were posted up and all the nutters could do was post up the same 5 or 6 links they've been posting up for years. The level of misery in the nutters has risen to stratospheric levels as is clearly illustrated in the anger in the posts.

Anyway..........the updated scoreboard as of late last week....................

By the way Polar........this asshole Rolling Thunder is most responsible for the nutters going into the negative in the scoreboard.

 

[polarbear]

Yo Polar..........wtf...........where ya been??!!! Likely frozen somewhere up there in Greenland!!

Well.......while you've been gone, Ian, wirebender and Westwall have been putting a serious hurting on the nutter contingent. IN fact, I updated the scoreboard just the other day after several threads were posted up and all the nutters could do was post up the same 5 or 6 links they've been posting up for years. The level of misery in the nutters has risen to stratospheric levels as is clearly illustrated in the anger in the posts.

Anyway..........the updated scoreboard as of late last week....................

By the way Polar........this asshole Rolling Thunder is most responsible for the nutters going into the negative in the scoreboard.

Where have I been..?
Outdoors mostly. You could not explore all the Lakes & Trails here in
several livetimes , but I`m trying.
Right now I`m still working on an addition to my house, which will
be my new workshop, since I`ve decided to clear out the basement for a
rec-room and make room for a snooker + Fussball-table & stuff like that.

I had to leave my lathe & the other machine tools behind when I moved south from the Yukon, ...soon I`ll be in the market for for a lathe and a vertical milling machine...and there is no way, I'ld even try to lug that much iron down a set of basement steps...so I relocated all my "boy-toys" up on ground level.

Say how did You calibrate Your frustration/anger measurements for Your score board?
Seems to me I better quit cussing, unless I do it in German.
like "Himmelherrgottskruzifixnochamalsauhundverrecktesdreckschwein"
It`s something I say on occasion when the hammer missed the nail.
I`ll buy You a case of beer if You can say that in one go..!!!

 

[polarbear]

hey polarbear! welcome back. always fun to read a poster who actually says something while he is insulting someone. or is it the other way around, I can never tell. anyways give em hell.

But You, Westwall & many others do not feel insulted by what I have to say...and that`s because people who appreciate real science rather than occult & pseudo science like man made GW don`t get offended by facts and numbers. Real science does not pepper statements with superlatives and expressions like "polar ice shrinks dramatically"...or vague statements like "substantially higher", " catastrophic consequences", "destroy whole nations" and try to awe the public after all that crap with the usual:
"Most scientists agree that global warming presents the greatest threat to the environment. "
No..!!!...Real science simply states numbers and facts and leaves it up to You if that was dramatic, sensational or whatever You want to call it.

I`ll illustrate it with a few examples...:
Warming to Cause Catastrophic Rise in Sea Level?

Most scientists agree that global warming presents the greatest threat to the environment.
There is little doubt that the Earth is heating up. In the last century the average temperature has climbed about 0.6 degrees Celsius (about 1 degree Fahrenheit) around the world.

However, the biggest danger, many experts warn, is that global warming will cause sea levels to rise dramatically. Thermal expansion has already raised the oceans 4 to 8 inches (10 to 20 centimeters)

This is not science, it`s a fire and brimstone religious fanatic sermon and it`s the moron following that gets insulted by math & numbers to the contrary and then embark on a verbal lynching campaign.

So, lets see how many venomous hate responses by OldRocks and the rest of that Al Goracle flock will get spewed out here again, if I do the math on what this expert "scientist" has been preaching..
He forgot to preach specifically how much oceans have warmed, but these "experts" come a dime a dozen and it`s easy to find another doomsday sermon like "if you don`t believe us, then you are destroying whole nations" where it`s been blared from the pulpit, ...:

Global warning | Rising ocean temperatures near worst-case climate change predictions

Rising ocean temperatures near worst-case predictions


The ocean is warming about 50 per cent faster than reported two years ago, according to an update of the latest climate science.
Report co-author Will Steffen, executive director of the Australian National University's Climate Change Institute, said the top 700 metres of the ocean had warmed by about 0.1 degrees over the past half-century.

"The consequences would be catastrophic," said Jonathan Overpeck, director of the Institute for the Study of Planet Earth at the University of Arizona in Tucson. "Even with a small sea level rise, we're going to destroy whole nations and their cultures that have existed for thousands of years."

So Okay let`s do the math
Since all the "experts agree" with each other I take the liberty to use the 700 meters and the 0.1 Deg Celsius from this "expert scientist" and the other 10 or 20 centimeters from the other "expert"..why not..? They do claim they all agree with each other.

I don`t need to consult any of these "experts" to get the thermal expansion coefficient for water. Science lesser than "climatology" and which is said to have been corrupted by big oil money has measured that to be 0.000207 per degree Celsius.

They also say that the ocean surface on this planet amounts to 3.6 x 10^6 square kilometers.
We need to find out the number of cubic kilometers the 700 meter thick layer is, that the "experts" have agreed on warmed by 0.1 deg Celsius..
so .7 X 3.6 X 10^8 comes out @ 252 000 000 cubic kilometers.

Next we find out by how many cubic kilometers these 252 million cubic kilometers actually will expand if you warm them up by 0.1 deg C
and that would be :
252 000 000 x 0.000207 x 0.1 = 5216 cubic kilometers

Now lets convert the 20 cm rise in sea level the "experts" have agreed on to a volume increase, using the 700 meter thick layer that as they say has gotten warmer by 0.1 C...:

so now we have .7002 x 3.6 x 10^8 = 252 072 000
in their "climate science math" a 0.1 deg Celsius rise has expanded this body of water by 72 000 cubic kilometers...

So in "climate science" water has a 14 times greater or should I say catastrophic expansion coefficient than physics has been using before the Al Goracle era.

No matter which of their statements,...if You take a few minutes and do the math You find exaggerations not just the usual verbal hype, but also in the numbers and in the graphs with super expanded Y axis data and splice points to let inconvenient reality simply vanish..
Like the ice coverage the size of Arizona are summarily "averaged" under the rug and well established physical constants like the one used here are over bloated by 14 times...
If OldRocks is as he claims a "mensa member" he should have spotted this kind of stuff without me rubbing his face into it

 

[skookerasbil]

The Polar Bear is............


BAAAAAAAAAACK!!!



Prepare for ENVIRONMENT SCOREBOARD armagheddon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




By the way Polar........the nutters on here are more pissed than ever given the big zero with greenhouse gas emissions legislation now going on over 3 years. As I keep pointing out.........nobody cares about the science shit anymore. But they keep on posting up the same stupid-ass links on glaciers and temperatures..........the same ones that have been around forever

 

[polarbear]

The Polar Bear is............


BAAAAAAAAAACK!!!



Prepare for ENVIRONMENT SCOREBOARD armagheddon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




By the way Polar........the nutters on here are more pissed than ever given the big zero with greenhouse gas emissions legislation now going on over 3 years. As I keep pointing out.........nobody cares about the science shit anymore. But they keep on posting up the same stupid-ass links on glaciers and temperatures..........the same ones that have been around forever

You probably meant to say "nobody cares about this shit-science anymore" instead of science shit.
After all real science has a lot to do with bringing this shit to it`s well deserved end.
I noticed that this crap does not get the usual easy ride in the news media any more. So now it shows up in just about every other kiddy cartoon that my great grand kids are watching.
In cities like Toronto which is one of the few remaining liberal cluster-fucks left in Canada they have this asshole "Dr." Suzuki preaching it to little schoolkids. This usurp has zero background in Math, Physics or Chemistry.
He is an otherwise insignificant (Insect) Biology major who`s been sucking up multi million $$ "green" grants while the liberals were in power and spread this garbage on his do-goody TV show called "The Nature of Things"....which nobody watches any more.
Typical...there are hardly any adults, except the most naive getting sucked in by this crap any more...so now the GW activists target little kids at the kindergarten & elementary school level wherever the opportunity presents itself...
In Canada this has given rise to a backlash and many parents are protesting against this as vehemently as against that gay-brainwash garbage some of these teachers are trying to foist on innocent young minds....rightly so, I think, because I also think that this GW crap is down at the same level, installing a guilt complex in little kids, who in today`s weird world have already enough trouble coping...don`t You think...?

 

[polarbear]

The Polar Bear is............


BAAAAAAAAAACK!!!



Prepare for ENVIRONMENT SCOREBOARD armagheddon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




By the way Polar........the nutters on here are more pissed than ever given the big zero with greenhouse gas emissions legislation now going on over 3 years. As I keep pointing out.........nobody cares about the science shit anymore. But they keep on posting up the same stupid-ass links on glaciers and temperatures..........the same ones that have been around forever

Well I think You`ll like this science shit:

If You just want to get to the science part , then jump down over this text
to the === Heat Transfer Experiment ==== line

Real science is based on the study of reality, while GW attempts to dazzle us with wildly inaccurate
computer models. The only thing that impresses me about these computer models is their co$t
certainly not their performance.
It is a lot of fun though to rip them into pieces and discover the flat earth "science" these
are based on..but we have discussed that already at length, before I went off on my summer vacation...

"calculations are based on a theoretical flat black-body 1 square meter, near the
equator at constant pressure and humidity"...!!!

This crap be found buried deep in the fine print that most don`t bother to read

Just consider how radically these computer models had been updated as real time lines
have caught up with the predictions and none of these materialized....
There is not a single computer model that had it right to date.

Which in itself is quite outrageous, considering that these clowns still expect even today, that all the claims
they had made based on these older and admitted as faulty models should still stand, considering
the economical damage these quacks have caused during their hay days and the kind of
vendettas and smear campaigns they have unleashed on anyone who dared to be critical.

Meanwhile the real science, that GW critics used to disprove these quack CO2 GW
hypothesis needed no updating whatsoever.
The problem was, that the general public was in no position who was right and "climatologists"
used that to their full advantage devoting much time & many resources for self promoting P.R.
and equally as much launching vicious personal attacks on anyone who had scientific
prove to the contrary.
But the not so general public especially people who have a background in Physics, Chemistry & Math
had no trouble at all seeing past the smoke & mirrors.
But even amongst Physicists there is only a limited number of people who had expertise and
experience in Infrared Absorption and IR spectroscopy , coupled with a strong background in
general Physics, especially in Thermodynamics and the Math of statistics & trend evaluation.

So, the general public was a "soft target" to borrow a phrase from the war against terrorism
and the IPCC gangsters were fully aware of that fact.

I use this phrase because I do think that their tactics and their aim is as damaging to
society as run of the mill terrorism if not greater.


I have cited the facts about how little IR radiation CO2 can absorb , have posted actual experimental
Data by some of the world's foremost experts, ...have posted many calculations showing
how & by how much the GW fraudsters have cheated, slanted and spliced statistics data etc etc.

But perhaps it's better to post a physics experiment here, that anyone can carry out, to settle once and
for all how our globe really warms, when it does so after emerging from an ice age.
There is not a single GW (..is caused by CO2 ) advocate who will not claim that the "ice sheets are shrinking
at an alarming rate"...due to CO2 in our "unusually warm" atmosphere.
So what are they saying...? that the ice at both poles are melting from the top down.
But by now almost everyone knows that once a junk of ice has calved into the ocean
9/10th of the mass is submerged and once the mass becomes top heavy as the water it is
submerged in has dissolved enough mass below the water line,...ice bergs roll.
When they do, it is spectacular and You`ll have no trouble at all finding such footage on Youtube.

Would they melt from the top down, then there would be no cause for any ice berg to roll !!!

So GW preaches predictably, that the oceans have been (excessively) warmed and that this warming has been
enhanced by us raising the CO2 level in the atmosphere.

Lets get one thing straight. GW preachers will taint anyone who argues about the CO2 having caused
the warming of our oceans immediately as a "denier" even if You never even argued that the oceans
or the atmosphere did get warmer... and You only argue what caused it

They deliberately blur the point of contention to evade the onus of proof, which would compel them
to prove that this ocean warming was caused by the additional CO2 and not just by solar activity.
..which by the way is a constant in every single one of their idiotic computer models


=========== The heat transfer experiment ==========================

Well , I can suggest an experiment that can settle that once and for all.
If You think I cheated, do it yourself or submit it to "Mythbusters".
Actually the latter would not be a bad idea, then we could all watch this GW crap getting stamped
"BUSTED" and see it croak on TV...if they had the guts to address the subject...but taking a look
how politically correct the crew make-up is, I don`t see any guts

Never mind them, this You can easily do at home.
All You need is a thermometer, a blow torch,...a $ 15 plumber's butane soldering torch will do fine..
a 100 watt heat lamp and a suitable container for water , ...I used a 12 by 8 inch , 6 inch deep
square plastic container, and some water at room temperature.


CO2 GW quacks are telling you that the oceans are being heated excessively by air that is unusually warm because
of the elevated COO content ....+ some more blah blah blah
Real scientists will tell you, that if the oceans have gotten warmer that this is due to increased solar
activity and has absolutely nothing to do with CO2....minus any blah blah blah

All it takes is the items I listed and 2 hours of Your time to find out in 2 steps who is right.

Step one:
fill the container to a 2 inch water level with water that you have allowed before to equilibrate
with the ambient room temperature.
Lay the thermometer flat in the container, so it is submerged at the bottom.

So now lets see what it takes to make this submerged thermometer register an increase in
temperature by trying to heat this small body of water from the top, not just with unusually
warmer air, fuck we`ll use a wide open blow torch..!!!

I think after trying one or more hours You get the point...the thermometer indication
does not even budge...

Take it from me it won`t budge even if You use a > 2000 degree hot Oxy- Acetylene torch instead
of a Propane or Butane & air torch flame.

In my experiment the initial volume of water was 3.15 liters and it was at 26 deg Celsius..
So why would the thermometer at the bottom stay pinned at 26 deg C...?

The answer is easy and even visible if You keep Your eyes peeled while You try this.
Instead of heating the water below the immediate surface the energy is expended by
evaporating the water at the surface.
Water has a rather high "latent heat" value, ... 9700 cals per Mol (= per 18 grams H2O) or
2260 K-Joules per Kilogram, @ 100 deg C or about 2500 K-Joules /Kg between -40 and + 40 deg C

You can see the evaporation and You can even measure it.
In my experiment the water level was down by 7 millimeters after one hour.
But the submerged thermometer did not climb one iota up from the 26 deg.

Instead of the water heating up when You apply "hot air"...even in the form of
> 400 deg Celsius hot gas from a blow torch, water just evaporates from the
surface, while the bulk of water below the surface stays pinned.

In my experiment, a 7 mm drop in water level corresponded to a drop in
volume from 3.15 liters to 2.75 liters after torching for 1 hour...and
try it yourself, the thermometer just 2 inches below the surface stayed pinned @
constant temperature.
The energy absorbed by the water through evaporation from the blow torch was
216 of Kilocalories...= 250 Watts...!!!


Now let`s see what happens if instead of trying to heat the water from the
top with a (really hot) gas or hot air, we heat it by irradiating it with less than
half the energy with a 100 watt heat lamp...much the way what happens
as sunlight is absorbed by water..:

Well in my experiment the heat lamp was 1 foot above the water surface
and after only 45 minutes I was already past 40 degrees Celsius


But,...You may ask....what happens with the energy contained in the water
vapor that my blow torch has evaporated.
Yes in a closed room that would matter and near the ceiling over
top of your experiment a thermometer would register a higher temperature

However out in the open the fact that moist air is way lighter than dry air
convection updrafts develop rapidly.
Convection up draft speeds of ~ 3000 feet per minute are common.
This speed increases with altitude...and as the altitude increases and
this air de-compresses it cools down and the evaporation thermal energy
will be largely expended by lifting a corresponding weight of air and water over this distance
against the force of gravity...and that of course consumes it`s exact energy equivalent in
calories or Btu`s of as many foot pounds mechanical energy was
required to lift this mass to this height.

The height will be wherever the moist air crosses over the dew point conditions.
Once these conditions are satisfied the water will condense from the vapor phase
back to the liquid phase and form clouds

Whatever energy remained at that point appears again as
heat energy when the water vapor condenses as "latent heat".

But as reality has it, this heat energy is now re-dissipated
at high altitudes...where the ambient temperatures are subzero
and has already been carried way above the corridor where GW quacks are
trying to con You into believing that the CO2 is trapping
secondary "black-body IR" near the surface and that
therefore CO2 "amplifies" the solar heating component and
that therefore this unusually hotter air warms also
our oceans unusually faster...

So, after trying to heat water from the top with a blow torch and
later with a heat lamp and compare the results You no longer
need to believe ...You can draw Your own conclusions

And once You have, use the blow torch and please do light a fire under
some asses..!!!!!!!!!!!