Anybody want to discuss philosophy?

[Unkotare]

I think one of the major problems all over this world is the lack of a sense of worth. Too many people feeling like they've got nothing to lose and no help is on the way.

The problem doesn't lie in that feeling so much as in the fact that it is accurate.

 

[Unkotare]

Then again, too many people also suffer from an exaggerrated sense of self worth.

 

[Unkotare]

We can certainly see the increasingly narcissism of certain board members the further they populate out to the furthest extremes. The personal fragility coupled to "I am the center" personality produces some skewed individuals.

You realize you just described yourself exactly, right?

 

[Wiseacre]

I think one of the major problems all over this world is the lack of a sense of worth. Too many people feeling like they've got nothing to lose and no help is on the way. Too many broken homes, broken relationships, broken societies. I didn't want to get into religion all that much, but this is one area where religion can be a positive: if we believe that God loves us, and we assemble with others who share that belief, then our sense of self-worth should improve. Has to be honest though, you can't fake this.

snippet:

The second major condition determining the quality of existence is the feeling one
develops about his self. In general, if things go right for us, then we develop positive
feelings:self-worth,self-esteem,self-love.Whatever the terms,we are referring to a clus-
ter of constructive feelings that we develop about the self and the things the self does.
One who has these positive feelings feels privileged at being who he is and what
he is; he enjoys living with himself.

How we feel about our selves strongly reflects how others felt about us during
our earliest years. If we were loved, then we feel lovable; we can love ourselves. If we
were accepted, then we feel acceptable; we can accept ourselves. If we were trusted,
then we feel trustworthy; we can trust ourselves. If our very existence was valued,
then we feel valuable; we value ourselves.

It is impossible to escape the severe fact that we are wholly dependent upon the
feeling-reflections of others during these early stages of development.

" The self concept, we know, is learned. People learn who they are and what they are from
the ways in which they have been treated by those who surround them in the process of
their growing up. This is what Sullivan called learning about self from the mirror of
other people. People discover their self concepts from the kinds of experiences they
have had with life—not from telling, but from experience. People develop feelings that
they are liked, wanted, acceptable and able from having been liked, wanted, accepted
and from having been successful. One learns that he is these things, not from being told
so but only through the experience of being treated as though he were so. " -- Arthur W. Combs

One who has been loved during his formative years will develop a love of self.
However, there is a common confusion between “self-love” and “selfishness.” Self-
love is neither a narcissistic obsession with one’s physical or intellectual qualities nor
egotism, the inordinate desire to look out for one’s own interests at the expense of
others. The psychologist Erich Fromm reminds us that “if it is a virtue to love my
neighbor as a human being,it must be a virtue—and not a vice—to love myself,since
I am a human being too.”Whatever qualities the category “human”includes apply to
me as well as to others; there is no concept of “human” that excludes me. The bibli-
cal mandate to “love your neighbor as yourself” implies that loving oneself is good
and honorable, and not a selfish act. And psychology has made it abundantly clear
that respect for the self, and love of the self, are prerequisites to respecting and lov-
ing others. If one hates one’s self, it follows that one will hate others, no matter how
much the love game is played. Love of others and love of self are not mutually exclu-
sive alternatives, despite the fact that our religious heritage has taught us they are.
“On the contrary,” writes Fromm, “an attitude of love toward themselves will be
found in all those who are capable of loving others.

page 99, Philosophy: An Introduction to the Fine Art of Wondering, by James L. Christian

Didn't want to get into politics much either, but a lot of this ties into my personal political philosophy. We ought to be pursuing gov't policies that promote opportunities to increase people's self worth, and I don't think creating more dependencies on the gov't isn't a good way to do that. I can see providing a helping hand when times are really tough, but it can't become long term. And we oughta be doing a better job of improving the economy so that people can get back on their feet sooner rather than later.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Much needs to be reformed in the social programs, including the philosophical as well as the political basis for creating constituencies. The same problem exists with the corporate welfare subsidies as well.

I think one of the major problems all over this world is the lack of a sense of worth. Too many people feeling like they've got nothing to lose and no help is on the way. Too many broken homes, broken relationships, broken societies. I didn't want to get into religion all that much, but this is one area where religion can be a positive: if we believe that God loves us, and we assemble with others who share that belief, then our sense of self-worth should improve. Has to be honest though, you can't fake this.

snippet:

The second major condition determining the quality of existence is the feeling one
develops about his self. In general, if things go right for us, then we develop positive
feelings:self-worth,self-esteem,self-love.Whatever the terms,we are referring to a clus-
ter of constructive feelings that we develop about the self and the things the self does.
One who has these positive feelings feels privileged at being who he is and what
he is; he enjoys living with himself.

How we feel about our selves strongly reflects how others felt about us during
our earliest years. If we were loved, then we feel lovable; we can love ourselves. If we
were accepted, then we feel acceptable; we can accept ourselves. If we were trusted,
then we feel trustworthy; we can trust ourselves. If our very existence was valued,
then we feel valuable; we value ourselves.

It is impossible to escape the severe fact that we are wholly dependent upon the
feeling-reflections of others during these early stages of development.

" The self concept, we know, is learned. People learn who they are and what they are from
the ways in which they have been treated by those who surround them in the process of
their growing up. This is what Sullivan called learning about self from the mirror of
other people. People discover their self concepts from the kinds of experiences they
have had with life—not from telling, but from experience. People develop feelings that
they are liked, wanted, acceptable and able from having been liked, wanted, accepted
and from having been successful. One learns that he is these things, not from being told
so but only through the experience of being treated as though he were so. " -- Arthur W. Combs

One who has been loved during his formative years will develop a love of self.
However, there is a common confusion between “self-love” and “selfishness.” Self-
love is neither a narcissistic obsession with one’s physical or intellectual qualities nor
egotism, the inordinate desire to look out for one’s own interests at the expense of
others. The psychologist Erich Fromm reminds us that “if it is a virtue to love my
neighbor as a human being,it must be a virtue—and not a vice—to love myself,since
I am a human being too.”Whatever qualities the category “human”includes apply to
me as well as to others; there is no concept of “human” that excludes me. The bibli-
cal mandate to “love your neighbor as yourself” implies that loving oneself is good
and honorable, and not a selfish act. And psychology has made it abundantly clear
that respect for the self, and love of the self, are prerequisites to respecting and lov-
ing others. If one hates one’s self, it follows that one will hate others, no matter how
much the love game is played. Love of others and love of self are not mutually exclu-
sive alternatives, despite the fact that our religious heritage has taught us they are.
“On the contrary,” writes Fromm, “an attitude of love toward themselves will be
found in all those who are capable of loving others.

page 99, Philosophy: An Introduction to the Fine Art of Wondering, by James L. Christian

Didn't want to get into politics much either, but a lot of this ties into my personal political philosophy. We ought to be pursuing gov't policies that promote opportunities to increase people's self worth, and I don't think creating more dependencies on the gov't isn't a good way to do that. I can see providing a helping hand when times are really tough, but it can't become long term. And we oughta be doing a better job of improving the economy so that people can get back on their feet sooner rather than later.

 

[Cecilie1200]

First issue:

The book's 1st chapter offers the statement that mankind has tried to answer the questions about the meaning of life and existence through our religions and philosophies. But in fact we've been supplied with too many answers, and it's very hard to tell what the real truth is. The book when goes on to say and most of our religions and philosophies have concluded that "in the final analysis, life in this world is not worth living". We are expected to carry on, enduring the travails and burdens placed upon us until we die and go to a better place.

" Through the ages, humans have sought clues to life’s meaning through our reli-
gions and philosophies. To date they have given us immense help, but a contempo-
rary overview of humanity’s quest supplies us with a superabundance of answers, so
many answers in fact that we can’t decide among them,and any decision seems arbi-
trary and limited. " Philosophy: An Introduction to the Fine Art of Wondering, by James L. Christian (page 2)

Leaving aside the issue of whether there is in fact a better place (heaven?), do you think life is not worth living? I kind of have a problem with that idea, because it leads to a defeatist attitude and an decreased chance of experiencing the joys and successes that life can bring. Sure, life is full of the slings and arrows of outragious fortune, wrongs done with no justice applied. However, by reaching out to those who are experiencing those trials and tribulations I believe we enrich our own lives, helping each other through the rough spots can be enormously satisfying and rewarding, not to mention maybe getting a helping hand yourself when you need it.

I not only think life is worth living, I think it's incorrect to say that all religions teach that it is not.

I have always been taught - and continue to believe - that this life exists for the purpose of making us better, like tempering steel or tumbling rocks to polish them. I have no idea what it is after this life for which we're being improved, but if what I believe is true, then that means the improvement process is necessary and worth doing.

 

[Unkotare]

I not only think life is worth living, I think it's incorrect to say that all religions teach that it is not.

Which religion teaches that it is not?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I not only think life is worth living, I think it's incorrect to say that all religions teach that it is not.

Which religion teaches that it is not?

Beats me. It was in the OP.

 

[Wiseacre]

I not only think life is worth living, I think it's incorrect to say that all religions teach that it is not.

Which religion teaches that it is not?

Beats me. It was in the OP.

Here's the quote from the book.

" Through the ages, humans have sought clues to life’s meaning through our reli-
gions and philosophies. To date they have given us immense help, but a contempo-
rary overview of humanity’s quest supplies us with a superabundance of answers, so
many answers in fact that we can’t decide among them,and any decision seems arbi-
trary and limited.
Furthermore, after a more critical reexamination, we discover that most of our
religions and many of our philosophies have concluded that,in the final analysis,life-
in-this-world is not worth living. At best it’s but a time of troubles to be endured
until we can reach something better. That’s not much help to those of us still dedi-
cated to the assumption that life may be worth living. "

Philosophy: An Introduction to the Fine Art of Wondering, by James L. Christian, page 4

 

[Unkotare]

You need to do a little less copy and pasting and a little more thinking on your own.

 

[JakeStarkey]

[quote Wiseacre]Here's the quote from the book.

" Through the ages, humans have sought clues to life’s meaning through our reli-
gions and philosophies. To date they have given us immense help, but a contempo-
rary overview of humanity’s quest supplies us with a superabundance of answers, so
many answers in fact that we can’t decide among them,and any decision seems arbi-
trary and limited.
Furthermore, after a more critical reexamination, we discover that most of our
religions and many of our philosophies have concluded that,in the final analysis,life-
in-this-world is not worth living. At best it’s but a time of troubles to be endured
until we can reach something better. That’s not much help to those of us still dedi-
cated to the assumption that life may be worth living. "

Philosophy: An Introduction to the Fine Art of Wondering, by James L. Christian, page 4[/quote]

Some religions and ethical systems teach that life is a vale of tears. We are born to die. But even when desperately ill, badly injured, or in the hands of the bad guys, I have never lost hope or given into despair. Hope is not false delusion, as the weak minded and poor souled may argue, but part of a progression to knowing the infinite, whereas failure of hope is the rot of despair in the naysayer.

 

[BreezeWood]

Some religions and ethical systems teach that life is a vale of tears. We are born to die. But even when desperately ill, badly injured, or in the hands of the bad guys, I have never lost hope or given into despair. Hope is not false delusion, as the weak minded and poor souled may argue, but part of a progression to knowing the infinite, whereas failure of hope is the rot of despair in the naysayer.

We are born to die - But - I have never lost hope or given into despair.

yes ... it is our physiological form that is meant to perish however if the reason for existence is accomplished beforehand we believe it will allow the person a continued existence beyond the physiological form to become contributing members in managing the universe.

DNA for Life is developed and maintained as an example of employment for those who accomplish the OuterWorld of the Everlasting.

 

[Wiseacre]

[quote Wiseacre]Here's the quote from the book.

" Through the ages, humans have sought clues to life’s meaning through our reli-
gions and philosophies. To date they have given us immense help, but a contempo-
rary overview of humanity’s quest supplies us with a superabundance of answers, so
many answers in fact that we can’t decide among them,and any decision seems arbi-
trary and limited.
Furthermore, after a more critical reexamination, we discover that most of our
religions and many of our philosophies have concluded that,in the final analysis,life-
in-this-world is not worth living. At best it’s but a time of troubles to be endured
until we can reach something better. That’s not much help to those of us still dedi-
cated to the assumption that life may be worth living. "

Philosophy: An Introduction to the Fine Art of Wondering, by James L. Christian, page 4

Jake:
Some religions and ethical systems teach that life is a vale of tears. We are born to die. But even when desperately ill, badly injured, or in the hands of the bad guys, I have never lost hope or given into despair. Hope is not false delusion, as the weak minded and poor souled may argue, but part of a progression to knowing the infinite, whereas failure of hope is the rot of despair in the naysayer.[/QUOTE]

Me:
Life is a bitch and then you die. Sorry, no link. It is my view that those who have solid relationships with others have a better chance of sustaining the slings and arrows of outragious fortune. [I'm on a Shakepeare trip this weekend.] If all you've is yourself, it could be a lot tougher. We may or may not believe in a God/Gods, but family, friends, and a significant other can sure help us get over the rough spots and make the good times memorable. I personally think that religion helps in both situations, but that's just me.

Somehow I screwed up the edit. Don't know how to fix it.

On second thought, it's all Jake's fault, he did it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I am writer enough to take the responsibility! Many of my friends believe you die and you rot, nothing more. I don't. However, I agree connection with others essential to a fulfilling life. My family, large and extended, loves and upholds and shelters and protects its members, and that is a major blessing for me.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I was wondering if anyone around here was interested in a thread about philosophy. I'm getting a little tired of the wrangling over politics and the economy, and am looking for something a little less emotional. A friend showed me a book that I thought might be interesting; it has over 630 pages, with many potential topics of discussion. Gonna take awhile to work my way through this one. The book is:

Philosophy: An Introduction to the Fine Art of Wondering, by James L. Christian. The original version was written some 40 years ago in the early 70s, the latest is the 11th version written in 2011. You can by it online at various websites but it's expensive, costong over $135 in someplaces. But I'm a cheap bastard, I found a website where I could download the previous version (10th) for free.

file, Download

So, if anyone is interested we can talk about the the hell is going on and why. Note that this is not a thread about religion, I don't give a damn what you believe or don't believe. If you want to offer your views about God, one way or another, feel free. I believe the subject is going to come up anyway sooner or later. But this thread isn't intended to evolve into another pissing contest over whether religion is a bunch of hooey or not. I do hope any who contribute here will respect another's right to their own views.

not a bad thread .. for the most part

 

[Unkotare]

Meaningful contribution.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I am writer enough to take the responsibility! Many of my friends believe you die and you rot, nothing more. I don't. However, I agree connection with others essential to a fulfilling life. My family, large and extended, loves and upholds and shelters and protects its members, and that is a major blessing for me.

The body dies and rots. We are not our bodies. Our brains also cease to function. Ever see people with a dead brain hitched up to a heart-lung machine?

 

[JakeStarkey]

The linking was 'die and rot.'