Any Serious Ideas on The Middle East?

[stonewall]

Why exactly do you want to get rid of them? And who do you propose to put in their place?

The US certainly doesn't want to "get rid of them". Because of the fact that the wahabbis would take power, in that, you're absolutely correct.

However, it will never happen. Because there's like 27,000 members of the royal family.

Wahhabism is already in control of Saudi Arabia.

You need to read a bit about Saudi Arabia. There is a delicate power balance between the fundamentalists and royal family.

There is a power balance between the political and the religious, but the royals are Salafi. Wahabbi.

Don't believe that there is a difference. There really is not.

 

[mystic]

There is a power balance between the political and the religious, but the royals are Salafi. Wahabbi.

Don't believe that there is a difference. There really is not.

Fair enough. The quote I was responding to was:

The real problem is getting rid of the House of Sa'ud without putting the Wahhabists in power. The royal family is going to collapse sooner or later; probably sooner.

...in which he refered to the opposition fundies as "the wahabbists". Very true that the ruling family is wahabbist. If you notice, that is why I said:

[
There is a delicate power balance between the fundamentalists and royal family.

 

[stonewall]

There is a power balance between the political and the religious, but the royals are Salafi. Wahabbi.

Don't believe that there is a difference. There really is not.

Fair enough. The quote I was responding to was:

The real problem is getting rid of the House of Sa'ud without putting the Wahhabists in power. The royal family is going to collapse sooner or later; probably sooner.

...in which he refered to the opposition fundies as "the wahabbists". Very true that the ruling family is wahabbist. If you notice, that is why I said:

[
There is a delicate power balance between the fundamentalists and royal family.

My mistake.

 

[amiam*]

I guess you didn't know about the First Barbary War. It was believe the US and Muslims! Back in the day Thomas Jefferson studied the Koran to know thy enemy!

First Barbary War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A big reason there was little conflict with Muslims in the 1800s and early 1900s, is because Oil wasn't as big of a luxury, before the automobile went mainstream. The Ottoman Empire controlled and really kept them under raps. It also gave them a non-Western enemy. As for Iran, the Western friendly Shah was in Iran. Because of the Shah, whether Israel existed or not Iran would be a tyranical radical countries that doesn't like us too much!

A bigger reason for the absence of conflict with the West was the lack of support for the Zionist cause and Muslim domination by the Ottoman Empire.

The participation of the Jewish Legion or Zion Mule Corps under the tutelage of the English (where the Zionists learned the art of war)served the Allied cause against the Ottoman's. A most useful fifth column.

Another interesting fact is the Zimmerman Telegram sent by the acting German foreign minister. The telegram (sent on US telegraph lines) proposed an alliance between Germany and Mexico with Mexico receiving the lands it lost to the US. Mexico denied receiving the telegram and claimed it to be a forgery. (It is interesting to note that the American army under General Pershing was chasing Poncho Villa all over Mexico with Mexico's permission!)

This true German patriot Arthur Zimmerman confirmed the authenticity of the telegram. The World wonders why? Was Arthur Zimmerman a traitor to Germany?????Is this the knife in the back? It certainly was the straw that broke the camels back. Shortly after its publication the United States went to war.

Thus we get the Balfour Declaration and the Mein Kamft awarded to the Zionists. We are all so lucky.
Please see;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Legion

 

[Fatality]

First, we got along famously well with the Middle East throughout most of our nation's history. Prior to 1948, we were doing great with them.

Then came the creation of Israel (led by the British), and since we joined sides with Israel (not saying whether that was a good or bad decision), then the Middle East started becoming more hostile toward the USA.

well there ya go right there, mohammdan racism and bigotry right at the heart of the issue. kill the jew, kill the christians, kill the other assorted infidels yak yak yak!! PUKE!!! they behave like inbred dogs foaming at the mouth. im sick of hearing about them.

 

[JW Frogen]

Look, Islam is all right.

No worse than any of the others, some what.

All I ask is that you just don't blow yourself up, and others, because your imaginary friend got anal with you.

Go to a movie with Allah, talk him down.

 

[mdn2000]

Mash107, I like your post, only problem I find is this one part.

had no right to be created from Arab land prior to 1948

I dont understand how this statement is accurate. How do you define the land as Arab.

It was populated mostly by Arabs and had been for quite some time. The Arab language, culture, and ethnicity were the most prevalent in the area in question, making it rightfully Arab land rather than land rightfully belonging to recent non-Arab immigrants.

This is a false statement, Arabs are from Arabia not Palestine. If you compare the Arab population to the Jewish population than yes they had a majority, but even that depends on which year the census is taken. What is most important though in this post is there is no mention of any other nationality, Palestine in the 1800's consisted of more than just Arab and Jewish population.

How about Christians, no mention of Christians yet the population of Christians was huge, Syrians, Egyptians, Kurds, Druze, etc, etc.

So many more people than the people who migrated from Arabia, hence, Arabs.

The first step to take toward peace it quit listening to the Islamist who insist on defining the terms of the debate in such narrow terms.

Second is to consider the geographical are we are speaking of, San Bernardino County of California is larger than Israel, we are talking a tiny area.

Size matters, especially if you choose to divide it again, one must remember Jordan was and is part of the geographical area known as Palestine, Jordan is the portion partitioned off and given to the Arabs.

Size also matters given that many Jews came from Syria to Israel, similar to moving your family from Los Angeles to San Diego or from New York to Manhattan. So the next time someone tells you the Jews had no right to move into Israel remember thats the same as saying you have no right to move from Manhattan to New Jersey or Orlando to Miami (Orlando to Miami is a bad example, too far).

If someone tells you that Jews and Arabs are unrelated remember its the same as saying its impossible that someone from Chicago to be related to someone from Indianapolis (again a bad comparison, chicago to Indianopolis is much further in distance). Of course both Arab and Jew come from Abraham and worship at his grave, Abraham mentioned in Koran and bible, so again they are the same people.

So how are we to believe Jews have no right to the land of Abraham yet Arabs do.

How are we to believe people a mere 50 miles away have no rights to move to the land.

This does not even take into consideration that Arabs expelled Jews from Mecca where they lived over a thousand years.

Arab land, yes if you consider americans can freely move between Chicago and Detroit. Not Jewish land, simply because they were not a majority, that argument only stands if we ignore decades of history prior to 1947.

Arabs are in Palestine for one reason. The are losers. Crazy to think in these terms but its true.

First one must realize the Arabs in Palestine belonged to an Arab tribe. Arab tribes originate in Arabia. They only leave to find a better life, so hence, they lost the will to live in poverty within Arabia and came to where they could be fruitful.

This may do to the fact they were robbed by other Arabs and forced to flee.

There tribe may of been in involved in conflict with another tribe, being the weaker tribe they fled.

Maybe after a particularly bad drought they needed to flee to find food.

Or the population grew so large the meager resources did feed all the tribes and they fled.

Or it may be the well documented history of Arabs having a higher standard of living when they lived amongst the Jews.

So many reasons the Arabs came to live in the land of the Jews.

One race, two different religions. A tiny strip of land.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Mash107, I like your post, only problem I find is this one part.



I dont understand how this statement is accurate. How do you define the land as Arab.

It was populated mostly by Arabs and had been for quite some time. The Arab language, culture, and ethnicity were the most prevalent in the area in question, making it rightfully Arab land rather than land rightfully belonging to recent non-Arab immigrants.

This is a false statement, Arabs are from Arabia not Palestine. If you compare the Arab population to the Jewish population than yes they had a majority, but even that depends on which year the census is taken. What is most important though in this post is there is no mention of any other nationality, Palestine in the 1800's consisted of more than just Arab and Jewish population.

How about Christians, no mention of Christians yet the population of Christians was huge, Syrians, Egyptians, Kurds, Druze, etc, etc.

So many more people than the people who migrated from Arabia, hence, Arabs.

The first step to take toward peace it quit listening to the Islamist who insist on defining the terms of the debate in such narrow terms.

Second is to consider the geographical are we are speaking of, San Bernardino County of California is larger than Israel, we are talking a tiny area.

Size matters, especially if you choose to divide it again, one must remember Jordan was and is part of the geographical area known as Palestine, Jordan is the portion partitioned off and given to the Arabs.

Size also matters given that many Jews came from Syria to Israel, similar to moving your family from Los Angeles to San Diego or from New York to Manhattan. So the next time someone tells you the Jews had no right to move into Israel remember thats the same as saying you have no right to move from Manhattan to New Jersey or Orlando to Miami (Orlando to Miami is a bad example, too far).

If someone tells you that Jews and Arabs are unrelated remember its the same as saying its impossible that someone from Chicago to be related to someone from Indianapolis (again a bad comparison, chicago to Indianopolis is much further in distance). Of course both Arab and Jew come from Abraham and worship at his grave, Abraham mentioned in Koran and bible, so again they are the same people.

So how are we to believe Jews have no right to the land of Abraham yet Arabs do.

How are we to believe people a mere 50 miles away have no rights to move to the land.

This does not even take into consideration that Arabs expelled Jews from Mecca where they lived over a thousand years.

Arab land, yes if you consider americans can freely move between Chicago and Detroit. Not Jewish land, simply because they were not a majority, that argument only stands if we ignore decades of history prior to 1947.

Arabs are in Palestine for one reason. The are losers. Crazy to think in these terms but its true.

First one must realize the Arabs in Palestine belonged to an Arab tribe. Arab tribes originate in Arabia. They only leave to find a better life, so hence, they lost the will to live in poverty within Arabia and came to where they could be fruitful.

This may do to the fact they were robbed by other Arabs and forced to flee.

There tribe may of been in involved in conflict with another tribe, being the weaker tribe they fled.

Maybe after a particularly bad drought they needed to flee to find food.

Or the population grew so large the meager resources did feed all the tribes and they fled.

Or it may be the well documented history of Arabs having a higher standard of living when they lived amongst the Jews.

So many reasons the Arabs came to live in the land of the Jews.

One race, two different religions. A tiny strip of land.

Good post. Thank you. However when you asked: "So how are we to believe Jews have no right to the land of Abraham yet Arabs do." I believe that is a false question. The question has never been "either/or." The question should be: Should we have an Israel or should we have a Palestine? To make a decision we must look at the characteristics of each entity.

Israel, of course, is a "Jewish state" with reduced rights for non Jews. Violence, death, destruction, and ethnic cleansing have been necessary to create, maintain, and expand this entity.

Palestine was, and still is, a multi-racial, multi-ethnic, and multi-religious country with equal rights for all. All historic accounts show that indigenous Muslims, Christians, and Jews had an amicable relationship in Palestine. This relationship continues today and equal rights are guaranteed by their constitution.

I think the choice is simple.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

One can drill through GLASS. I suggest we turn the Middle East into a giant Glass bowl.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

It was populated mostly by Arabs and had been for quite some time. The Arab language, culture, and ethnicity were the most prevalent in the area in question, making it rightfully Arab land rather than land rightfully belonging to recent non-Arab immigrants.

This is a false statement, Arabs are from Arabia not Palestine. If you compare the Arab population to the Jewish population than yes they had a majority, but even that depends on which year the census is taken. What is most important though in this post is there is no mention of any other nationality, Palestine in the 1800's consisted of more than just Arab and Jewish population.

How about Christians, no mention of Christians yet the population of Christians was huge, Syrians, Egyptians, Kurds, Druze, etc, etc.

So many more people than the people who migrated from Arabia, hence, Arabs.

The first step to take toward peace it quit listening to the Islamist who insist on defining the terms of the debate in such narrow terms.

Second is to consider the geographical are we are speaking of, San Bernardino County of California is larger than Israel, we are talking a tiny area.

Size matters, especially if you choose to divide it again, one must remember Jordan was and is part of the geographical area known as Palestine, Jordan is the portion partitioned off and given to the Arabs.

Size also matters given that many Jews came from Syria to Israel, similar to moving your family from Los Angeles to San Diego or from New York to Manhattan. So the next time someone tells you the Jews had no right to move into Israel remember thats the same as saying you have no right to move from Manhattan to New Jersey or Orlando to Miami (Orlando to Miami is a bad example, too far).

If someone tells you that Jews and Arabs are unrelated remember its the same as saying its impossible that someone from Chicago to be related to someone from Indianapolis (again a bad comparison, chicago to Indianopolis is much further in distance). Of course both Arab and Jew come from Abraham and worship at his grave, Abraham mentioned in Koran and bible, so again they are the same people.

So how are we to believe Jews have no right to the land of Abraham yet Arabs do.

How are we to believe people a mere 50 miles away have no rights to move to the land.

This does not even take into consideration that Arabs expelled Jews from Mecca where they lived over a thousand years.

Arab land, yes if you consider americans can freely move between Chicago and Detroit. Not Jewish land, simply because they were not a majority, that argument only stands if we ignore decades of history prior to 1947.

Arabs are in Palestine for one reason. The are losers. Crazy to think in these terms but its true.

First one must realize the Arabs in Palestine belonged to an Arab tribe. Arab tribes originate in Arabia. They only leave to find a better life, so hence, they lost the will to live in poverty within Arabia and came to where they could be fruitful.

This may do to the fact they were robbed by other Arabs and forced to flee.

There tribe may of been in involved in conflict with another tribe, being the weaker tribe they fled.

Maybe after a particularly bad drought they needed to flee to find food.

Or the population grew so large the meager resources did feed all the tribes and they fled.

Or it may be the well documented history of Arabs having a higher standard of living when they lived amongst the Jews.

So many reasons the Arabs came to live in the land of the Jews.

One race, two different religions. A tiny strip of land.

Good post. Thank you. However when you asked: "So how are we to believe Jews have no right to the land of Abraham yet Arabs do." I believe that is a false question. The question has never been "either/or." The question should be: Should we have an Israel or should we have a Palestine? To make a decision we must look at the characteristics of each entity.

Israel, of course, is a "Jewish state" with reduced rights for non Jews. Violence, death, destruction, and ethnic cleansing have been necessary to create, maintain, and expand this entity.

Palestine was, and still is, a multi-racial, multi-ethnic, and multi-religious country with equal rights for all. All historic accounts show that indigenous Muslims, Christians, and Jews had an amicable relationship in Palestine. This relationship continues today and equal rights are guaranteed by their constitution.

I think the choice is simple.

LIAR. In Palestine Jews and Christians are persecuted and murdered. Muslims that do not support the current power that be are executed and murdered on the street. There is no rule of law except for those with the most weapons and people to use them.

Terrorists routinely cause the death of civilians by launching attacks from civilian neighborhoods against Israel.

As for Israel you dumb ass, the rights of all citizens of Israel are EXACTLY the same, INCLUDING the Muslims and Palestinians. You are aware I hope that something like 13 members of the Knesset are Arabs? That in Israel local districts and Towns are allowed to run their own Judicial system INCLUDING Muslims.

The only special treatment in Israel is FOR the Arabs, all citizens are required to service in the military EXCEPT Arabs , they can opt out. They are encouraged to serve but have the legal right to refuse to serve in the military.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Good post. Thank you. However when you asked: "So how are we to believe Jews have no right to the land of Abraham yet Arabs do." I believe that is a false question. The question has never been "either/or." The question should be: Should we have an Israel or should we have a Palestine? To make a decision we must look at the characteristics of each entity.

Israel, of course, is a "Jewish state" with reduced rights for non Jews. Violence, death, destruction, and ethnic cleansing have been necessary to create, maintain, and expand this entity.

Palestine was, and still is, a multi-racial, multi-ethnic, and multi-religious country with equal rights for all. All historic accounts show that indigenous Muslims, Christians, and Jews had an amicable relationship in Palestine. This relationship continues today and equal rights are guaranteed by their constitution.

I think the choice is simple.

LIAR. In Palestine Jews and Christians are persecuted and murdered. Muslims that do not support the current power that be are executed and murdered on the street. There is no rule of law except for those with the most weapons and people to use them.

Terrorists routinely cause the death of civilians by launching attacks from civilian neighborhoods against Israel.

As for Israel you dumb ass, the rights of all citizens of Israel are EXACTLY the same, INCLUDING the Muslims and Palestinians. You are aware I hope that something like 13 members of the Knesset are Arabs? That in Israel local districts and Towns are allowed to run their own Judicial system INCLUDING Muslims.

The only special treatment in Israel is FOR the Arabs, all citizens are required to service in the military EXCEPT Arabs , they can opt out. They are encouraged to serve but have the legal right to refuse to serve in the military.

I believe you have been misled. Could you support your allegations?