Any one wish to discuss Israel vs. Palestine here?

[M14 Shooter]

Israeli society does not allow for a decision tree that ends with "Send suicide bomber to blow up a school bus full of kids".

Palestinian society does.

 

[ConservaDerrps]

For me the issue is simple: Stay out of the religious debate. If that means not picking sides between the Palestinians and the Israelis, that's what you do. Both sides have a laundry list of things the other group has done to them. Both sides have legit beefs with the other side. In my world view, that means you call No Joy and move on. I do think prosperity is good for the global community, and so therefore I think if there can ever be a peaceful split of the region, we shouldn't shy away from providing help to the Palestinians to help them get on their feet, but it should be tightly controlled and very specific.

Then again, even that would anger the Israelis, so maybe I just should stick with my first response: Stay the Hell out and away from that region and its politics completely.

 

[Foxfyre]

I can find no basis for the dispute between Palestine and Israel involving religion in any regard. The Muslim religion may be a factor in the motives of the Palestinian leadership, but it is their behavor to which I think right thinking people object, and not their religion.

 

[ConservaDerrps]

I can find no basis for the dispute between Palestine and Israel involving religion in any regard. The Muslim religion may be a factor in the motives of the Palestinian leadership, but it is their behavor to which I think right thinking people object, and not their religion.

I don't want to be accused of flaming in this forum, so I'm going to ask you to provide some real, hard evidence that this conflict isn't religiously based. Why else would the two sides still be at such odds after all these years, if religion isn't the core of their disagreement?

And do you not call ANY of the actions taken by the Israelis as being over the line?

 

[Foxfyre]

I can find no basis for the dispute between Palestine and Israel involving religion in any regard. The Muslim religion may be a factor in the motives of the Palestinian leadership, but it is their behavor to which I think right thinking people object, and not their religion.

I don't want to be accused of flaming in this forum, so I'm going to ask you to provide some real, hard evidence that this conflict isn't religiously based. Why else would the two sides still be at such odds after all these years, if religion isn't the core of their disagreement?

And do you not call ANY of the actions taken by the Israelis as being over the line?

I've never said Israel has never overreacted or overreached or that there have not been individual Israelis who have behaved badly. In any substantial group of people there are going to be some people who get it wrong, act imprudently, or commit indefensible behavior. There are few humans on Earth, in fact, of whom that cannot be said.

But there is nothing in Israel's policy and never has been referring to any religion as being unacceptable or illegal or disallowed. Muslim mosques exist in perfect peace within Israel and Arab Muslims serve on the Israeli Knesset. There is no record of Israel ever taking the position that another soveriegn nation had no right to exist and should be obliterated from the face of the Earth.

Nor is the fact that the Palestinian leadership Muslim any factor whatsoever in Israel's response to the Palestinians.

It is the behavior, stated intent, and unacceptable terrorism committed by the Palestinian leadership that creates the conflict. Not anybody's religion. I already said, the Muslim religion may be a factor in Arab hatred of Israel. But it is not hatred of Jews that is the issue but the behavior of the Palestinians that causes the conflict.

Read over some of the commentary posted at this site and then see if you can find anything remotely similar stated by Israeli leaders:
Hamas in Their Own Words

 

[ConservaDerrps]

I can find no basis for the dispute between Palestine and Israel involving religion in any regard. The Muslim religion may be a factor in the motives of the Palestinian leadership, but it is their behavor to which I think right thinking people object, and not their religion.

I don't want to be accused of flaming in this forum, so I'm going to ask you to provide some real, hard evidence that this conflict isn't religiously based. Why else would the two sides still be at such odds after all these years, if religion isn't the core of their disagreement?

And do you not call ANY of the actions taken by the Israelis as being over the line?

I've never said Israel has never overreacted or overreached or that there have not been individual Israelis who have behaved badly. In any substantial group of people there are going to be some people who get it wrong, act imprudently, or commit indefensible behavior. There are few humans on Earth, in fact, of whom that cannot be said.

But there is nothing in Israel's policy and never has been referring to any religion as being unacceptable or illegal or disallowed. Muslim mosques exist in perfect peace within Israel and Arab Muslims serve on the Israeli Knesset. There is no record of Israel ever taking the position that another soveriegn nation had no right to exist and should be obliterated from the face of the Earth.

Nor is the fact that the Palestinian leadership Muslim any factor whatsoever in Israel's response to the Palestinians.

It is the behavior, stated intent, and unacceptable terrorism committed by the Palestinian leadership that creates the conflict. Not anybody's religion. I already said, the Muslim religion may be a factor in Arab hatred of Israel. But it is not hatred of Jews that is the issue but the behavior of the Palestinians that causes the conflict.

Read over some of the commentary posted at this site and then see if you can find anything remotely similar stated by Israeli leaders:
Hamas in Their Own Words

You're missing my point. Whether or not the stated intentions of either group name religion as a point of attack, that is most certainly where the blame for the heart of the fighting lies; to deny that is to deny reality. Of course not every Israeli has done terrible things, just like not every Palestinian has. Taking sides will not make this issue go away, nor will it EVER make the region more safe and secure.

You're citing a terrorist group's words. That's not the same as an average Muslim. I would consider Israel to be anything but blameless in this conflict. Neither side has ever made a real, lasting effort at peace. If you believe they have, then I think you're probably only seeing half the story.

Again, neither side is blameless, which is exactly why the U.S. should be treading lightly, if at all, in the region. I'm not about taking sides in this conflict.

 

[Foxfyre]

I don't want to be accused of flaming in this forum, so I'm going to ask you to provide some real, hard evidence that this conflict isn't religiously based. Why else would the two sides still be at such odds after all these years, if religion isn't the core of their disagreement?

And do you not call ANY of the actions taken by the Israelis as being over the line?

I've never said Israel has never overreacted or overreached or that there have not been individual Israelis who have behaved badly. In any substantial group of people there are going to be some people who get it wrong, act imprudently, or commit indefensible behavior. There are few humans on Earth, in fact, of whom that cannot be said.

But there is nothing in Israel's policy and never has been referring to any religion as being unacceptable or illegal or disallowed. Muslim mosques exist in perfect peace within Israel and Arab Muslims serve on the Israeli Knesset. There is no record of Israel ever taking the position that another soveriegn nation had no right to exist and should be obliterated from the face of the Earth.

Nor is the fact that the Palestinian leadership Muslim any factor whatsoever in Israel's response to the Palestinians.

It is the behavior, stated intent, and unacceptable terrorism committed by the Palestinian leadership that creates the conflict. Not anybody's religion. I already said, the Muslim religion may be a factor in Arab hatred of Israel. But it is not hatred of Jews that is the issue but the behavior of the Palestinians that causes the conflict.

Read over some of the commentary posted at this site and then see if you can find anything remotely similar stated by Israeli leaders:
Hamas in Their Own Words

You're missing my point. Whether or not the stated intentions of either group name religion as a point of attack, that is most certainly where the blame for the heart of the fighting lies; to deny that is to deny reality. Of course not every Israeli has done terrible things, just like not every Palestinian has. Taking sides will not make this issue go away, nor will it EVER make the region more safe and secure.

You're citing a terrorist group's words. That's not the same as an average Muslim. I would consider Israel to be anything but blameless in this conflict. Neither side has ever made a real, lasting effort at peace. If you believe they have, then I think you're probably only seeing half the story.

Again, neither side is blameless, which is exactly why the U.S. should be treading lightly, if at all, in the region. I'm not about taking sides in this conflict.

I didn't speak of the average Muslim or the average Jew. I did speak of the offical policies of the Palestian and Israeli leadership and what is causing the conflict. It is much, much, MUCH more than a squabble over religion.

 

[ConservaDerrps]

I've never said Israel has never overreacted or overreached or that there have not been individual Israelis who have behaved badly. In any substantial group of people there are going to be some people who get it wrong, act imprudently, or commit indefensible behavior. There are few humans on Earth, in fact, of whom that cannot be said.

But there is nothing in Israel's policy and never has been referring to any religion as being unacceptable or illegal or disallowed. Muslim mosques exist in perfect peace within Israel and Arab Muslims serve on the Israeli Knesset. There is no record of Israel ever taking the position that another soveriegn nation had no right to exist and should be obliterated from the face of the Earth.

Nor is the fact that the Palestinian leadership Muslim any factor whatsoever in Israel's response to the Palestinians.

It is the behavior, stated intent, and unacceptable terrorism committed by the Palestinian leadership that creates the conflict. Not anybody's religion. I already said, the Muslim religion may be a factor in Arab hatred of Israel. But it is not hatred of Jews that is the issue but the behavior of the Palestinians that causes the conflict.

Read over some of the commentary posted at this site and then see if you can find anything remotely similar stated by Israeli leaders:
Hamas in Their Own Words

You're missing my point. Whether or not the stated intentions of either group name religion as a point of attack, that is most certainly where the blame for the heart of the fighting lies; to deny that is to deny reality. Of course not every Israeli has done terrible things, just like not every Palestinian has. Taking sides will not make this issue go away, nor will it EVER make the region more safe and secure.

You're citing a terrorist group's words. That's not the same as an average Muslim. I would consider Israel to be anything but blameless in this conflict. Neither side has ever made a real, lasting effort at peace. If you believe they have, then I think you're probably only seeing half the story.

Again, neither side is blameless, which is exactly why the U.S. should be treading lightly, if at all, in the region. I'm not about taking sides in this conflict.

I didn't speak of the average Muslim or the average Jew. I did speak of the offical policies of the Palestian and Israeli leadership and what is causing the conflict. It is much, much, MUCH more than a squabble over religion.

No, it really isn't. Not at its core. If the two didn't have CENTURIES of hate built up on each from the religious stuff, this probably would have been squelched a long time ago. You can deny that if you wish, but I prefer to keep a big picture view of this particular shit-show.

 

[Foxfyre]

The dispute is not over religion. The dispute is over Israel's right to exist in peace and getting the Palestinians to agree to that so that they will have far less misery. That is the conflict in a nutshell. You can take religion entirely out of the equation and that conflict remains unchanged.

 

[Swagger]

The dispute isn't so much Israel's right to exist. Along with religious prejudice on both sides, the dispute's firmly rooted in who has a greater claim to the land.

 

[ConservaDerrps]

The dispute isn't so much Israel's right to exist. Along with religious prejudice on both sides, the dispute's firmly rooted in who has a greater claim to the land.

Exactly. To deny that it's not religiously based is to ignore literally thousands of years of history.

 

[Dot Com]

Realistically, however, Israel is a powerful, static aircraft carrier for the United States. Our defence, capital, and intelligence industries are almost completely intertwined. Whether we agree or disagree on the politics of the Palestinian question, withdrawing support from Israel in the region is almost a rhetorical question alone. It could not be done easily and swiftly.

sadly this is true. Its tantamount to military industrial complex welfare.

 

[JoeB131]

No one has been a harsher critic in the past of Israel than I. Yet, I will never delude myself. That one would compare the actions of Israel in relation to the Palestinians with those of the Nazis is either uneducated or deliberately deceiving. Furthermore, I doubt there is any real shame if one is alive in the aftermath of a major struggle in that arena. You only feel relief. Israel will, undoubtedly be able to handle any military challenge in the area, now more than ever with the Arab world in upheaval. As a last resort, to ensure its security, it has multiple nuclear strike weapons as sophisticated as any in ours. True, there is much not to like, but in the end, she serves our needs, and we serve hers, so she will be around for a long while after others come and go.

It is probably unfair to compare the Zionists to the Nazis, but it is totally fair to compare them to South African Apartheid.

And in the long run, the military superiority of the Botha Regime meant nothing in the face of international and internal oppossition.

In another generation, you are going to see Jews massively fleeing Israel, because they figure it just isn't worth it anymore.

 

[M14 Shooter]

The dispute isn't so much Israel's right to exist. Along with religious prejudice on both sides, the dispute's firmly rooted in who has a greater claim to the land.

Exactly. To deny that it's not religiously based is to ignore literally thousands of years of history.

Islam has'lt been around for thousands of years.

 

[SayMyName]

No one has been a harsher critic in the past of Israel than I. Yet, I will never delude myself. That one would compare the actions of Israel in relation to the Palestinians with those of the Nazis is either uneducated or deliberately deceiving. Furthermore, I doubt there is any real shame if one is alive in the aftermath of a major struggle in that arena. You only feel relief. Israel will, undoubtedly be able to handle any military challenge in the area, now more than ever with the Arab world in upheaval. As a last resort, to ensure its security, it has multiple nuclear strike weapons as sophisticated as any in ours. True, there is much not to like, but in the end, she serves our needs, and we serve hers, so she will be around for a long while after others come and go.

It is probably unfair to compare the Zionists to the Nazis, but it is totally fair to compare them to South African Apartheid.

And in the long run, the military superiority of the Botha Regime meant nothing in the face of international and internal oppossition.

In another generation, you are going to see Jews massively fleeing Israel, because they figure it just isn't worth it anymore.

Joe, I just don't think we are there yet. As you are aware, there is a much more powerful presence in our nation supporting Israel, than there was for apartheid South Africa.

 

[ConservaDerrps]

The dispute isn't so much Israel's right to exist. Along with religious prejudice on both sides, the dispute's firmly rooted in who has a greater claim to the land.

Exactly. To deny that it's not religiously based is to ignore literally thousands of years of history.

Islam has'lt been around for thousands of years.

When do you assert Islam began?

 

[JoeB131]

No one has been a harsher critic in the past of Israel than I. Yet, I will never delude myself. That one would compare the actions of Israel in relation to the Palestinians with those of the Nazis is either uneducated or deliberately deceiving. Furthermore, I doubt there is any real shame if one is alive in the aftermath of a major struggle in that arena. You only feel relief. Israel will, undoubtedly be able to handle any military challenge in the area, now more than ever with the Arab world in upheaval. As a last resort, to ensure its security, it has multiple nuclear strike weapons as sophisticated as any in ours. True, there is much not to like, but in the end, she serves our needs, and we serve hers, so she will be around for a long while after others come and go.

It is probably unfair to compare the Zionists to the Nazis, but it is totally fair to compare them to South African Apartheid.

And in the long run, the military superiority of the Botha Regime meant nothing in the face of international and internal oppossition.

In another generation, you are going to see Jews massively fleeing Israel, because they figure it just isn't worth it anymore.

Joe, I just don't think we are there yet. As you are aware, there is a much more powerful presence in our nation supporting Israel, than there was for apartheid South Africa.

Only because the Afrikaners didn't have Hollywood reminding us every five minutes that Hitler did a nasty to them.

But even that excuse is running a bit thin.

 

[SayMyName]

It is probably unfair to compare the Zionists to the Nazis, but it is totally fair to compare them to South African Apartheid.

And in the long run, the military superiority of the Botha Regime meant nothing in the face of international and internal oppossition.

In another generation, you are going to see Jews massively fleeing Israel, because they figure it just isn't worth it anymore.

Joe, I just don't think we are there yet. As you are aware, there is a much more powerful presence in our nation supporting Israel, than there was for apartheid South Africa.

Only because the Afrikaners didn't have Hollywood reminding us every five minutes that Hitler did a nasty to them.

But even that excuse is running a bit thin.

It is a lot more deeper and invasive than just hollywood, Joe.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Exactly. To deny that it's not religiously based is to ignore literally thousands of years of history.

Islam has'lt been around for thousands of years.

When do you assert Islam began?

Islam as a recognizable religion began in the early 600s.
So, you're looking at about 1400 years.
Hundreds, not thousands.

 

[SayMyName]

Islam has'lt been around for thousands of years.

When do you assert Islam began?

Islam as a recognizable religion began in the early 600s.
So, you're looking at about 1400 years.
Hundreds, not thousands.

610 AD to be exact, when Mohammed first received his revelations from God as he believed it to be. 622 AD was the beginning of the movement, as Mohammed marched his force of followers from Medina onto Mecca.