Any one wish to discuss Israel vs. Palestine here?

I repsectfully disagree.

We, America, need to remove our support of Israel and let the region decide for itself who stays and who goes.
 
I think we need to stop thinking we are going to create peace in the middle east when God said that He will end it when He comes and it wont end before that.
 
I think we need to stop thinking we are going to create peace in the middle east when God said that He will end it when He comes and it wont end before that.

I dont agree with your content but I do agree with your sentiment.

I can understand that. Including God into the picture creates controversy and makes some uncomfortable or just causes others to disbelieve, but the fact is that Israel exists because of prophecy and I don't think we should ignore the influence God has in the events of man.
 
I think we need to stop thinking we are going to create peace in the middle east when God said that He will end it when He comes and it wont end before that.

I dont agree with your content but I do agree with your sentiment.

I can understand that. Including God into the picture creates controversy and makes some uncomfortable or just causes others to disbelieve, but the fact is that Israel exists because of prophecy and I don't think we should ignore the influence God has in the events of man.

Im a believer but I also believe that some prophecies are self fufilling.
 
Im a believer but I also believe that some prophecies are self fufilling.

Israel fulfills no prophesies, neither by the hand of God nor the will of man.

I've heard Zionists say that Israel is the fig tree mentioned in Luke 21:29 is a symbol for Israel. But, Luke 21 doesn't imply in the slightest that the fig tree means Israel. And, if the fig tree represents Israel in Luke 21, then why does the fig tree not represent Israel when Jesus curses the fig tree and announces, "May no fruit ever come from you again!” Besides, Luke 21 doesn't simply say "fig tree". It says "fig tree and all the trees." And, isn't it the Olive tree that world be used to represent Israel. Etc.

A man who blind to the misdeeds of the state of Israel is blind to the teachings of scripture.
 
I think we need to stop thinking we are going to create peace in the middle east when God said that He will end it when He comes and it wont end before that.

I dont agree with your content but I do agree with your sentiment.

I can understand that. Including God into the picture creates controversy and makes some uncomfortable or just causes others to disbelieve, but the fact is that Israel exists because of prophecy and I don't think we should ignore the influence God has in the events of man.
Yeah, but then at the last second, HE throws in that "free will" crap and that just screws us all up.
 
I think we need to stop thinking we are going to create peace in the middle east when God said that He will end it when He comes and it wont end before that.

I am in agreement. This has been going on for thousands of years, and I don't see it changing - that's why I never got caught up in those particular discussions.
 
I'm curious to see how the discussions will go in a temperate zone. :)

It can only end in tears...

Okay, here's where I see the problem. Israel has always been based on a lie. "A land without a people for a people without a land." the problem was there were people on that land. People who were displaced because the world felt really bad about what happened to Europe's Jewish population.

I do think the many petty despots who run the middle east have stirred up resentment about this to deflect from their own gross mismanagement of their own nations, without a doubt. But that doesn't take away from the fact they have a valid greivence, these European folks have essentially displaced them from land they consider holy.

Ideally, the Holy Land should be held in an international trust by the UN, as it is sacred to all the Abrahamic religions. (Christianity, Judeism and Islam, as well as other lesser known ones.)

The thing is, Israel is ultimately doomed. Young Israelis to whom Hitler is just a bogeyman to scare them at night just don't see why they wouldn't be happier living in Europe or America, where no one is strapping bombs onto their kids to try to kill them. Meanwhile, the population of Palestinians, in Isreal, the occuppied terriroties and neighboring nations- continues to increase.

The two state (or three state) solution is similar to what the Afrikaners in South Africa tried to do during Apartheid, create nominally independent entities to prevent eventual power sharing. But it only delays the inevitable. Arabs/Palestinians will be in the vast majority at some point.
 
I think we need to stop thinking we are going to create peace in the middle east when God said that He will end it when He comes and it wont end before that.

I dont agree with your content but I do agree with your sentiment.

I can understand that. Including God into the picture creates controversy and makes some uncomfortable or just causes others to disbelieve, but the fact is that Israel exists because of prophecy and I don't think we should ignore the influence God has in the events of man.

Israel exists because after WWII, the world had a big guilt trip and decided to mollify the world's Jews by giving away something that wasn't theirs to give away.

It has nothing to do with a magic sky man.
 
I'm curious to see how the discussions will go in a temperate zone. :)

It can only end in tears...

Okay, here's where I see the problem. Israel has always been based on a lie. "A land without a people for a people without a land." the problem was there were people on that land. People who were displaced because the world felt really bad about what happened to Europe's Jewish population.

I do think the many petty despots who run the middle east have stirred up resentment about this to deflect from their own gross mismanagement of their own nations, without a doubt. But that doesn't take away from the fact they have a valid greivence, these European folks have essentially displaced them from land they consider holy.

Ideally, the Holy Land should be held in an international trust by the UN, as it is sacred to all the Abrahamic religions. (Christianity, Judeism and Islam, as well as other lesser known ones.)

The thing is, Israel is ultimately doomed. Young Israelis to whom Hitler is just a bogeyman to scare them at night just don't see why they wouldn't be happier living in Europe or America, where no one is strapping bombs onto their kids to try to kill them. Meanwhile, the population of Palestinians, in Isreal, the occuppied terriroties and neighboring nations- continues to increase.

The two state (or three state) solution is similar to what the Afrikaners in South Africa tried to do during Apartheid, create nominally independent entities to prevent eventual power sharing. But it only delays the inevitable. Arabs/Palestinians will be in the vast majority at some point.

i agree completely. i think israel was a very bad mistake made by people with the very best intent.

someone needs to step in and dismantle the state in as humane a way as possible and find a way for the jewish israelis to return to somewhere of leave somehow...or remain if they wish, but not as a jewish ascendancy . i think, with the help of the USA and other countries, a secular palestine can become a true light unto the nations of the world and a beacon of democracy in the mideast. i think arab states have made great, albeit unsettling and unsteady, strides towards democracy in the past couple of years and for the USA to continue propping up israel flys in the face of what this country used to stand for.
 
I'm curious to see how the discussions will go in a temperate zone. :)


a noble idea, but there probably won't be much of a discussion.

i really haven't encountered a zionist who can present a good argument. usually, when they are asked to apply the same rules that they apply to israel to other states, or when they are asked to state their rules generally, the house of cards crumbles. i an irish kid and i understand their passion and all, but it has to be a passion for a value that can be shared rather than a property nthat can be possessed.

but yes, it would be interesting. thank you for introducing this thread.
 
Edited

i don't think you can impose your, or a western european culture's, idea of "existence" upon peoples of other cultures, especially in this day and age. that's like saying australia didn't exist until the mid 1700s. many aboriginal cultures throughout the world had and have tribal governments that exist without political boundaries, and i respect that.

i very sincerely doubt if israel, or other tribes in the region, had well defined political borders two or three millinia ago.
 
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The moral dilemma lies in whether the right thing to do is mind our own business and allow other nations to tear themselves apart if they wish to do so - vs - defending the helpless and innocent and deserving, most especially those who have been our friends when we needed one.

Israel was created for the most persecuted and abused single group of people on Earth so that they once and for all would have a homeland and could be who they are without interference from anybody. And even before the new State of Israel was created, the Arabs were determined to drive the Jews out or annihilate them and deny them a place to call home.

Prior to the establishment of Israel by the U.N. and with the blessings of England who held title to the land at the time, there was no organized country in Palestine, no government, no official authority other than Great Britain.

I personally think given the history, we have a moral imperative to defend and support Israel against those who want to wipe it off the face of the Earth for no other reason than it supports Judaism and will not make Allah the supreme authority over the land.
 
The moral dilemma lies in whether the right thing to do is mind our own business and allow other nations to tear themselves apart if they wish to do so - vs - defending the helpless and innocent and deserving, most especially those who have been our friends when we needed one.

Israel was created for the most persecuted and abused single group of people on Earth so that they once and for all would have a homeland and could be who they are without interference from anybody. And even before the new State of Israel was created, the Arabs were determined to drive the Jews out or annihilate them and deny them a place to call home.

Prior to the establishment of Israel by the U.N. and with the blessings of England who held title to the land at the time, there was no organized country in Palestine, no government, no official authority other than Great Britain.

I personally think given the history, we have a moral imperative to defend and support Israel against those who want to wipe it off the face of the Earth for no other reason than it supports Judaism and will not make Allah the supreme authority over the land.
Israel was created when zionists migrated into the area and drove out over 700,000 indigenous arabs (who had been living there for generations) with the use of jewish terrorism in militia groups like Irgun. Whenever you take land by force, there's going to be repercussions. Since no one was ensuring arab land rights in that area, they got hostile. And zionists got hostile right back. Both sides are guilty of the violence.

But it should be noted that before the zionist migration of the early 20's, jews and arabs had lived side by side tolerating each other without any major incidents of violence.

The Pals have an inalienable right to self-determination. They are being denied that with the 45 year occupation Israel has had on their land. For peace to occur, that has to end.
 
i agree completely. i think israel was a very bad mistake made by people with the very best intent.

someone needs to step in and dismantle the state in as humane a way as possible and find a way for the jewish israelis to return to somewhere of leave somehow...or remain if they wish, but not as a jewish ascendancy . i think, with the help of the USA and other countries, a secular palestine can become a true light unto the nations of the world and a beacon of democracy in the mideast. i think arab states have made great, albeit unsettling and unsteady, strides towards democracy in the past couple of years and for the USA to continue propping up israel flys in the face of what this country used to stand for.


i said that wrong. i didn't mean we, or anyone, should actively dismantle it. i meant we should be prepared for it to fail, as other states have failed and no longer exist today. it was perhaps a bad choice of words on my part.

i agree kind of with what you said, essentially that we should not prop israel up, but i think that is going to result in her failure...worse than they are failing now. kind of extreme suggestions, and i am not sure if they are in violation of over 200 UN resolutions. i don't think you can eactly "violate" a general assembly resolution..as for the marines, i'm an army guy and not to fond of marines, but i am not sure they should be utilised for what amounts to a policing action. i also think maybe borders should be decided by those people affected by them. many ot the world's problems today are the result of artificial borders inposed by former colonial powers. just look at israel.

look at it this way. those who can afford to are leaving it in droves. israel is bending its own ruless on immigration to maintain their "jewish" hegemony and are generally attracting low income hooligans who couldn't make it wherever. brooklyn gun toters and russian neo-nazis etc. that is a very broad generalisation, but with some truth to it.

by dismantle i think i meant let's see if we can get those people out of there who can't afford to get away from it themselves.
 
i don't think you can impose your, or a western european culture's, idea of "existence" upon peoples of other cultures, especially in this day and age. that's like saying australia didn't exist until the mid 1700s. many aboriginal cultures throughout the world had and have tribal governments that exist without political boundaries, and i respect that.

i very sincerely doubt if israel, or other tribes in the region, had well defined political borders two or three millinia ago.

I don't have to impose a damn thing, the Israelis are doing a good job on their own.:eusa_angel:
 
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i am not sure if they are in violation of over 200 UN resolutions. .
Here's what I've found so far...
Since 1948, the Security Council has adopted 223 resolutions in condemnation of Israel 's violations of international law, including the occupation of Palestinian lands, unilateral incursions into the Lebanese and Syrian soils, developing nuclear weapons, deporting the Palestinian citizens from their homes and building illegal settlements in the West Bank .
That's quite a bit!

What if Iran was in violation of that many?
 

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