Anthropic Principle

[anwin]

Hi everyone,

Some people may see this subject as belonging in the Science section.....but I think it is relevant to religion and the idea of Intelligent creation in certain ways. Therefore I have posted it here.

I am sure some of you have heard of the Anthropic Principle developed by Brandon Carter. It states that the universe seems to be fine tuned for humans to evolve and appears to be balanced on a knife edge of coincidences that make human life possible.

In particular the Participatory Anthropic Principle developed by John Wheeler states that Consciousness probably participates in the development of the universe. He uses the Copenhagen Interpretation of QM to develop this argument.

Here is a link on this subject. (I am not sure about the rules on linking articles......so please let me know if there is a problem.)

Participatory Anthropic Principle PAP

An excerpt:

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The Participatory Anthropic Principle, or PAP, is the idea that the universe requires observers, because without observers the universe could not actually exist. This controversial claim is based on the traditional Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics, which requires an act of observation to resolve the superposition of states in a quantum wavefunction. It is one particularly intriguing variant of the anthropic principle.
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Best Wishes,

anwin

 

[Mr. H.]

Humankind would have done well to leave well enough alone, accept the notion of "God" as a one-off event, and focus on the science and nature of all things both earth-bound and celestial.

Faith and Religion have decimated untold billions of lives on this planet and they continue to do so.

We are a race of conceited, egotistical, and self-centered beings with little to no connection to "God" other than the periodic table of elements.

 

[anwin]

Humankind would have done well to leave well enough alone, accept the notion of "God" as a one-off event, and focus on the science and nature of all things both earth-bound and celestial.

Faith and Religion have decimated untold billions of lives on this planet and they continue to do so.

We are a race of conceited, egotistical, and self-centered beings with little to no connection to "God" other than the periodic table of elements.

Hi Mr.H.

You are probably thinking of religion, mythology and religious wars.

I am thinking of Consciousness, QM, Self and such philosophical matters.

Best Wishes.

anwin

 

[Mr. H.]

Humankind would have done well to leave well enough alone, accept the notion of "God" as a one-off event, and focus on the science and nature of all things both earth-bound and celestial.

Faith and Religion have decimated untold billions of lives on this planet and they continue to do so.

We are a race of conceited, egotistical, and self-centered beings with little to no connection to "God" other than the periodic table of elements.

Hi Mr.H.

You are probably thinking of religion, mythology and religious wars.

I am thinking of Consciousness, QM, Self and such philosophical matters.

Best Wishes.

anwin

And I am currently channeling..

the Brotch Slap.

Self and Such some of this, Brotch.

 

[Alystyr]

It states that the universe seems to be fine tuned for humans to evolve

I think that the scope of that statement is a little broad for me to accept. If it had said "this planet", maybe I could. Just considering our own Solar System, the only planet that can support human life without any accommodation is Earth.

balanced on a knife edge of coincidences that make human life possible

Perhaps, but I find that to be somewhat of a "chicken or the egg" situation - did we come about because conditions were right for it, or did we adapt and develop to fit the existing conditions? In other words, we'd be different if the conditions were different.

 

[anwin]

It states that the universe seems to be fine tuned for humans to evolve

I think that the scope of that statement is a little broad for me to accept. If it had said "this planet", maybe I could. Just considering our own Solar System, the only planet that can support human life without any accommodation is Earth.

balanced on a knife edge of coincidences that make human life possible

Perhaps, but I find that to be somewhat of a "chicken or the egg" situation - did we come about because conditions were right for it, or did we adapt and develop to fit the existing conditions? In other words, we'd be different if the conditions were different.

Hi Alystyr,

This has to be seen in line with the Chaos theory and the issue of Initial conditions. The earth would not have been the way it is if the universe had been any different. Everything is interconnected. We cannot isolate the earth from its environment in the solar system or in the galaxy.

All conditions from the big bang onwards have to be just right for the earth and its eco system to be generated.

We can of course see all this as mere coincidence and chance occurrence......but given the Copenhagen Interpretation in QM.... human mind and observation take on special meaning and importance.

Best Wishes.

anwin

 

[Alystyr]

I always love a good, intellectual discussion.

All conditions from the big bang onwards have to be just right for the earth and its eco system to be generated.

That's true, but only for our Earth as it stands today.
Maybe Earth, as such, wouldn't be capable of supporting life for whatever reason if conditions had been different. Maybe there would still be life, but it might be completely unrecognizable.
But with the infinite number of planets in the universe, it's a near certainty that there would be life, maybe even similar to humans, somewhere out there.

 

[anwin]

Alystyr.

The point is that conditions are not different on earth. They are what they are.

The earth has been able to produce life (intelligent life) and sustain it. We earlier thought that the universe would abound in such habitable planets. But we are finding that it is not so.

Life seems to be a rarity .....and there is no reason why intelligent life should have at all evolved in a universe that is so hostile to life. This requires very specific conditions for which the chances are very small.

As I said, this should also be seen with the fact that behavior of elementary particles and the collapse of any probability function depends on observation. So...consciousness has to figure in some way if elementary particles are to come together to form a habitable planet.

Best Wishes.

anwin

 

[there4eyeM]

A very interesting topic and thread.

From a logical point of view, the existence of the universe without an observer is a meaningless concept. That alone is almost synonymous with the concept of the observer bringing the universe into being simply by observing. There is no way to observe 'from the outside' in order to see if this is true or not. So, functionally, it is true.

 

[anwin]

A very interesting topic and thread.

From a logical point of view, the existence of the universe without an observer is a meaningless concept. That alone is almost synonymous with the concept of the observer bringing the universe into being simply by observing. There is no way to observe 'from the outside' in order to see if this is true or not. So, functionally, it is true.

Yes...there4eyeM. We normally think of the world as existing independent of us. As though we are just ants on a saucer.... and without us the universe will continue as is. From QM this does not appear to be so. Consciousness seems to exist as some kind of a fundamental element that drives creation and all activity.

I know the idea of Consciousness being an elemental force in nature may sound bizarre.....but then, the world is bizarre. The more we study the cosmos or subatomic physics or even genetics....the more bizarre it gets. Scientists are seriously considering Parallel Universes (Multiverses) and Simulated Universes. So...the world isn't simple and straight forward by any means.

Best Wishes.

anwin

 

[Dajjal]

I am of the view that there is an underlying metaphysical universe that guides the physical universe by the grace of God. I do not think there are Multiverses, I think that is just a scientific theory that is an attempt to explain how the universe we have can be so finely tuned as to allow intelligent life. Scientists themselves can see how incredibly unlikely it is that all the laws of physics are exactly as they need to be to allow our existence, so they invented multiverse theory. But I just think there is one universe that is God created, and is a perfect system to allow us to evolve. The development of our spiritual consciousness being the ultimate aim.
According to what I have studied in spiritualism, there are many other planes of experience above the vibration of the physical realms. We go there after death, and live there until we choose to reincarnate for more experience.
The spirit world work behind the scenes, guiding human evolution by inspiration and telepathy.
Ultimately it is the God mind that is the cause and the director of the evolution of the universe and all that's in it.

 

[anwin]

I am of the view that there is an underlying metaphysical universe that guides the physical universe by the grace of God. I do not think there are Multiverses, I think that is just a scientific theory that is an attempt to explain how the universe we have can be so finely tuned as to allow intelligent life. Scientists themselves can see how incredibly unlikely it is that all the laws of physics are exactly as they need to be to allow our existence, so they invented multiverse theory. But I just think there is one universe that is God created, and is a perfect system to allow us to evolve. The development of our spiritual consciousness being the ultimate aim.
According to what I have studied in spiritualism, there are many other planes of experience above the vibration of the physical realms. We go there after death, and live there until we choose to reincarnate for more experience.
The spirit world work behind the scenes, guiding human evolution by inspiration and telepathy.
Ultimately it is the God mind that is the cause and the director of the evolution of the universe and all that's in it.

Hi Dajjal

Yes...I agree absolutely.

Scientists talk of parallel worlds that exist just inches away from us but are inaccessible to us. These could be the same 'spiritual worlds' that the ancients talked of.

Whether a individual spiritual being (God) created all this or it is generated out of some formless consciousness that pervades all creation....I don't know....but the materialistic argument is certainly meaningless to me.

Best Wishes.

anwin

 

[anwin]

Hi everyone,

Related to the Anthropic Principle....some of you might have heard of the Boltzmann brains. Boltzmann obviously thought of Consciousness as requiring brains ....so he thought of self aware brains floating around in the universe.

Boltzmann brain - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

If we think of Consciousness as existing without the requirement of a brain...that makes it simpler than the idea of floating brains.

Best Wishes

anwin

 

[Dajjal]

If we think of Consciousness as existing without the requirement of a brain...that makes it simpler than the idea of floating brains.

Theosophy teaches that consciousness resides in the soul body. The soul body is a formless bubble of energy that separates us from the God head. We are reputedly God within God, sealed off from Him by the soul body.
Theosophy teaches God himself is a formless ocean of consciousness, and we are like drops in the ocean.

 

[anwin]

If we think of Consciousness as existing without the requirement of a brain...that makes it simpler than the idea of floating brains.

Theosophy teaches that consciousness resides in the soul body. The soul body is a formless bubble of energy that separates us from the God head. We are reputedly God within God, sealed off from Him by the soul body.
Theosophy teaches God himself is a formless ocean of consciousness, and we are like drops in the ocean.

Hi Dajjal,

Yes...we are said to be extended parts of the universal consciousness. Why these extensions happened we don't know. It is sometimes called the 'original sin'....that is..the original separation from the source.

We are now in the process of being pulled back, by shedding our individuality.

The same idea is given in the Hindu Upanishads as similar to the water cycle. We are said to be like water droplets that have evaporated from the oceans and are now like rivers that are flowing back to our source. Once we flow into the ocean we become one with it shedding all our individuality. This is said to be moksha or salvation.

Best wishes.

anwin

 

[anwin]

Further to the above post....

The universe could be like a Virtual Reality game. Once we put on the V R goggles, an entire world comes alive to us and we start living and interacting with it. In reality...there is no world at all. Its just some tiny impressions on a CD. Our observation creates these images in our mind as though they are real. Once we stop interacting and remove the goggles...the world disappears.

 

[anwin]

Even the String Theory has the Anthropic Principle as its landscape.

String theory landscape - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Excerpt:
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The idea of the string theory landscape has been used to propose a concrete implementation of the anthropic principle, the idea that fundamental constants may have the values they have not for fundamental physical reasons, but rather because such values are necessary for life (and hence intelligent observers to measure the constants).
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