Antarctic ice

[Kosh]

Sea level rise due to ice melt......my god all I can do is laugh at the total ignorance in that statement. let me know when your drink over flows (after the ice in it melts).

Well, Billy_Boob, since we are talking of ice that is on land melting, yes, that does cause sea level rise.

old scrocks #6. Land melt.

I see you're terminally confused again, JustCrazy. As usual.

The continent of Antarctica is losing ice mass and that water is flowing into the ocean and raising sea levels. That is one point. Old BoobyBobNutJob expressed his retarded disbelief that melting ice could raise sea levels, comparing it to ice cubes in a glass of water. "Sea level rise due to ice melt......my god all I can do is laugh at the total ignorance in that statement. let me know when your drink over flows (after the ice in it melts)." OldRocks pointed out that melting ice that is on land does indeed add to sea level rise.

Then later there is the article I posted about how the melting of massive amounts of Antarctic ice is not the result of some possible sporadic volcanic activity under the West Antarctic ice shelves. That is the second point. These ice shelves are grounded below sea level so part of these glaciers are below sea level and exposed to the ocean waters. One of the scientists involved with the study if the volcanoes said this:
"According to Schroeder, Rignot’s paper, and another that came out in May, show that warm oceans are currently the main cause of glacier loss at the edge of the ice.

“The fastest glacial changes are happening where the ocean is warmer,” Schroeder said. “Geothermal heating is not enough by itself to have caused the observed changes.”

In response to those who are using his study to deny climate change, Schroeder confirmed that volcanic activity is not the dominant force of ice loss and rising sea levels."

He is obviously talking about the melting of the ice at the edge of the glacier where it is partly underwater.

You are so stupid, you can't even keep track of where your quotes are coming from. OldRocks was not referring to the exact same Antarctic ice melt as Dr. Schroeder is talking about, you poor confused fool.

YOU AREA FUCKING MORON!

The empirical evidence is clear and you wanna believe the model crap your being force feed with a dam fire hose. OHHHH NOOOOSOE IGNORE REALITY AND OBSERVATION.... ONLY THE MODELS ARE CORRECT...

Nothing but a modern day snake-oil salesman......

You really are very hilarious, BoobyBobNutJob, in a sad pathetic sort of way.

Nobody but you is talking about models, you moron. The evidence of Antarctic ice loss is observational, not based on models. You are so clueless, your posts might as well have been written by a dog. A retarded dog!

In your face:

 

[westwall]

Growth Of Antarctic Sea Ice A Warning Bell For Coastal Flooding

The stunning outward spread of ice floes atop the seas surrounding the South Pole has been caused by cold freshwater flowing out of melting Antarctic glaciers. (Shifting winds may also be playing a role in the breaking of previous Austral sea ice records.) That melting is forming layers of unusually cold and relatively salt-free surface waters in the region, the tops of which are being frosted with layers of blue-white ice.

Those layers of cold water could recast the southern stretches of the influentialAtlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation, which ferries water between tropical and polar regions, all the way from the Arctic to the Antarctic — with planet-churning consequences. Recent modeling indicates that these cold-water layers also formed as Antarctica melted during the prehistoric past, when they blocked warm water, which gets carried by deepwater currents to the Southern Ocean from the tropics, from surfacing.

At the surface, that warm water normally sloughs its excess heat into the atmosphere, cools down, then flows back north — typically a standard feature of the Atlantic’s circulation system. Without that Antarctic upwelling, the new study, which waspublished in Nature Communications, warns that the ice sheet is in danger of beingmelted from beneath at a hastening pace.

“We found out that if you put a certain amount of freshwater into the Southern Ocean around Antarctica, then basically it reduces this overturning — it reduces the upwelling of that warm water,” said the study’s lead author, Nick Golledge, a scientist at the Victoria University of Wellington’s Antarctic Research Center in New Zealand. “All that heat just gets trapped at a depth where it can melt the base of the ice shelves and the grounded ice that’s sitting in the ocean.”

The paradox of the expanding Antarctic Sea Ice is rather well explained. And it doesn't bode well for the future.

So, riddle me this batman, how do you get "cold freshwater flowing out" when the temp is only above zero on the peninsula? I could see the argument having merit if it was limited to that locale, but the claim doesn't hold a ounce of water when one considers the totality of the ice cover.

Yet more attempts to cover their collective asses because yet again, they are WRONG!

 

[RollingThunder]

What is the minimum temperature you're going to find in the LIQUID sea water washing up against the WAIS, Whizzo?

Minus 2C as defined by physics. The Southern Ocean is not showing any warming so what is your point?

Denier cult myth. The southern ocean waters are definitely warming, as a number of studies affirm.

Warming of the Southern Ocean Since the 1950s
Science
Sarah T. Gille - [email protected]
Science 15 February 2002:
Vol. 295 no. 5558 pp. 1275-1277
DOI: 10.1126/science.1065863
ABSTRACT
Autonomous Lagrangian Circulation Explorer floats recorded temperatures in depths between 700 and 1100 meters in the Southern Ocean throughout the 1990s. These temperature records are systematically warmer than earlier hydrographic temperature measurements from the region, suggesting that mid-depth Southern Ocean temperatures have risen 0.17°C between the 1950s and the 1980s. This warming is faster than that of the global ocean and is concentrated within the Antarctic Circumpolar Current, where temperature rates of change are comparable to Southern Ocean atmospheric temperature increases.


Ocean warming in Southern Hemisphere underestimated, scientists suggest
ScienceDaily
October 6, 2014
DOE/Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
Using satellite observations and a large suite of climate models, Lawrence Livermore scientists have found that long-term ocean warming in the upper 700 meters of Southern Hemisphere oceans has likely been underestimated.

"This underestimation is a result of poor sampling prior to the last decade and limitations of the analysis methods that conservatively estimated temperature changes in data-sparse regions," said LLNL oceanographer Paul Durack, lead author of a paper appearing in the October 5 issue of the journal Nature Climate Change.

Ocean heat storage is important because it accounts for more than 90 percent of Earth's excess heat that is associated with global warming. The observed ocean and atmosphere warming is a result of continuing greenhouse gas emissions. The Southern Hemisphere oceans make up 60 percent of the world's oceans.

The team found that climate models simulate the relative increase in sea surface height -- a leading indicator of climate change -- between Northern and Southern hemispheres is consistent with highly accurate altimeter observations. However, separating the simulated upper-ocean warming in the Northern and Southern hemispheres is inconsistent with observed estimates of ocean heat content change. These sea level and ocean heat content changes should be consistent, and suggest that until recent improvements occurred in the observational system in the early 21st century, Southern Hemisphere ocean heat content changes were likely underestimated.

Since 2004, automated profiling floats (named Argo) have been used to measure global ocean temperatures from the surface down to 2,000 meters. The 3,600 Argo floats currently observing the global ocean provide systematic coverage of the Southern Hemisphere for the first time. Argo float measurements over the last decade, as well as data from earlier measurements, show that the ocean has been gradually warming, according to Durack.

"Prior to 2004, research has been very limited by the poor measurement coverage," he said. "By using satellite data, along with a large suite of climate model simulations, our results suggest that global ocean warming has been underestimated by 24 to 58 percent. The conclusion that warming has been underestimated agrees with previous studies, however it's the first time that scientists have tried to estimate how much heat we've missed."

Given that most of the excess heat associated with global warming is in the oceans, this study has important implications for how scientists view Earth's overall energy budget, Durack said.

The new results are consistent with another new paper that appears in the same issue of Nature Climate Change. Co-author Felix Landerer of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, who contributed to both studies, says, "Our other new study on deep-ocean warming found that from 2005 to the present, Argo measurements recorded a continuing warming of the upper-ocean. Using the latest available observations, we're able to show that this upper-ocean warming and satellite measurements are consistent."

Ocean water has been lapping up against the WAIS for as long as it has been there, at least hundreds of thousands of years.

That's right! And it is only now, due to AGW/CC, that it is melting so rapidly, because AGW has warmed the ocean waters and increased air temperatures over the West Antarctic Peninsula.

But your computer MODEL says everything is going to melt. Am I right?

No, you are once again ridiculously wrong. Massive Antarctic ice loss is being directly observed in a variety of mutually confirming ways.

Here's one of the latest studies.

Earth's Gravity Dips from Antarctic Ice Loss
Discovery.com
BY PATRICK J. KIGER
OCT 1, 2014
Of all the effects on the Earth from human-driven climate change, this one might be the weirdest.

The rapid loss of ice from the West Antarctica’s ice sheet between 2009 and 2012 was big enough to cause a slight dip in the Earth’s gravitational field over the region, according to the European Space Agency. Scientists based the finding upon measurements made by the agency’s GOCE satellite, which from 2009 to 2013 used new technology to map the Earth’s gravitational field in unprecedented detail.

NEWS: Massive Antarctic Iceberg Sets Sail

While we might think of gravity as being the same all over the Earth, it’s actually not quite uniform, because of variations in the Earth’s surface such as mountains, valleys, ocean trenches and, in the case of the polar regions, the ice sheets, according to NASA Earth Observatory. But since a mountain or a valley generally is in the same place from year to year, shifts in gravity in a particular spot usually only take place gradually over very long periods of geologic time.

But in the case of the west Antarctic ice sheet, change is occurring rapidly. Data from another ESA satellite, CryoSat, shows that since 2009, the West Antarctic ice sheet’s rate of shrinkage has increased each year by a factor of three.

While the change in Antarctic gravity is so slight that it wouldn’t be noticeable from the ground, it’s a warning signal.

NEWS: Antarctic Sea Ice Growth Could Reverse

The breakup of the West Antarctic ice sheet could have much more serious effects, according to NASA. It the ice disappeared completely, it would raise sea levels by as much as 16 feet. The most vulnerable portion of the sheet is the Amundsen Sea region, where the glaciers don’t have big enough ice shelves to stem ice flow, and mostly aren’t pinned down by obstructions such as islands.

Additionally, a warm current rising up from the sea bottom accentuates the instability of the ice. The breakup of the Amunden Sea ice alone could cause the planet’s oceans to rise by 4 feet.

You are so gullible. And you'll believe the next thing you read even if it contradicts what you believed yesterday. As long as its not from a 'denier' of course.

LOLOLOLOL.....that's your most hilarious drivel and projection yet. I trust the testimony and evidence of the world's climate scientists, so in your eyes that makes me "gullible", but you believe any self-serving bullshit your propaganda-pushing puppetmasters in the fossil fuel industry feed you, without the need for any actual evidence, logic, or rationality. But you somehow consider yourself sane! And smarter and more knowledgeable than all of the world's scientists! Amazing! And so, so, SO retarded.

 

[mamooth]

So, riddle me this batman, how do you get "cold freshwater flowing out" when the temp is only above zero on the peninsula?

Ice floating and then melting is really beyond your comprehension?

This would be another demonstration of why your cult is ignored, due to the way all of its members consistently fail at even the most basic aspects of the science. If someone has a good grasp of common sense physics concerning the real world, they don't get bamboozled and sucked in by the denier cult.

 

[westwall]

So, riddle me this batman, how do you get "cold freshwater flowing out" when the temp is only above zero on the peninsula?

Ice floating and then melting is really beyond your comprehension?

This would be another demonstration of why your cult is ignored, due to the way all of its members consistently fail at even the most basic aspects of the science. If someone has a good grasp of common sense physics concerning the real world, they don't get bamboozled and sucked in by the denier cult.

Oh no. I understand the concept quite well. Now, which makes more sense.... The Antarctic sea ice is increasing because it is getting colder. Or the Antarctic sea ice is increasing because it is getting warmer?

Take your time.

 

[Crick]

You claim to be an actual degree'd geologist; someone that ought to be familiar with the way science is conducted and its questions addressed. Yet you ask a question like that. Amazing.

 

[westwall]

You claim to be an actual degree'd geologist; someone that ought to be familiar with the way science is conducted and its questions addressed. Yet you ask a question like that. Amazing.

So, answer the question.....

 

[Crick]

So, ask one that isn't shit.

 

[westwall]

So, ask one that isn't shit.

It's a straightforward question. What makes ice grow? Warmth or cold?

 

[mamooth]

Westwall, the answers are in the OP. You might try reading it. Or you can read it from Dr. S. Manabe, the father of climate science. He described why Antarctic sea ice would increase back in 1991. It's on page 795 of this paper. If you need any help with the big words, let us know.

Manabe et. al. (1991)
An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
---
It is surprising, however, that the sea-ice thickness in the G integration increases significantly in the vicinity of the Antarctic Continent despite the increase of atmospheric carbon dioxide. This is consistent with the slight decrease of the sea surface temperature mentioned earlier (fig. 10a.) It will be shown in section 9a that, owing to the intensification of the near-surface halocline caused by the increased supply of water at the oceanic surface, the convective mixing of cold near-surface water with warmer, underlying water becomes less frequent, resulting in the increase in sea ice and a slight reduction in sea-surface temperature.
---

Alas, according to denier logic, scientists being proven right again proves how wrong they are. That's another illustration of the denier inability to use logic.

 

[westwall]

Westwall, the answers are in the OP. You might try reading it. Or you can read it from Dr. S. Manabe, the father of climate science. He described why Antarctic sea ice would increase back in 1991. It's on page 795 of this paper. If you need any help with the big words, let us know.

Manabe et. al. (1991)
An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
---
It is surprising, however, that the sea-ice thickness in the G integration increases significantly in the vicinity of the Antarctic Continent despite the increase of atmospheric carbon dioxide. This is consistent with the slight decrease of the sea surface temperature mentioned earlier (fig. 10a.) It will be shown in section 9a that, owing to the intensification of the near-surface halocline caused by the increased supply of water at the oceanic surface, the convective mixing of cold near-surface water with warmer, underlying water becomes less frequent, resulting in the increase in sea ice and a slight reduction in sea-surface temperature.
---

Alas, according to denier logic, scientists being proven right again proves how wrong they are. That's another illustration of the denier inability to use logic.

So, what makes ice grow? Hot or cold?

 

[mamooth]

Cold and fresh. Can you not read? Colder and fresher water at the surface, warmer water below.

 

[Old Rocks]

"The fastest glacial changes are happening where the ocean is warmer,” Schroeder said. “Geothermal heating is not enough by itself to have caused the observed changes.”
So maybe someone could help me here, if the water is frozen and the ice extent is being added by melting surface ice, than how the hell does warm water have anything to do with land glacier melt? How does that warm water make its way on land?

this is where I lose it with you warmer k00ks.

Had you bothered to do the slightest research, you would not be losing it. The warmer ocean water melts the ice shelves that surround Antarctica, and block the glaciers at their outlet into the ocean. With that blockaged removed, the glaciers move more rapidly into the ocean.

Antarctic Glaciers Accelerate in Wake of Ice Shelf Breakup National Snow and Ice Data Center

Antarctic glaciers respond rapidly to climate change, according to new evidence found by NSIDC, NASA, and IAA scientists. In the wake of the Larsen B Ice Shelf disintegration in 2002, glaciers in the Antarctic Peninsula have both accelerated and thinned en route to the Weddell Sea. The findings indicate that ice shelf breakup may rapidly lead to sea level rise.

In a paper published in Geophysical Research Letters, Ted Scambos and Jennifer Bohlander of NSIDC, Chris Shuman of the Oceans and Ice Branch at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, and Pedro Skvarca of the Instituto Antártico Argentino describe two- to six-fold increases in centerline speed of four glaciers feeding the now-collapsed section of the Larsen B Ice Shelf. They also describe elevation losses in three glaciers in the collapse area. The researchers used both Landsat 7 and ICESat satellite imagery in this study.

http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v7/n10/full/ngeo2230.html

Rapid sea-level rise along the Antarctic margins in response to increased glacial discharge

• Craig D. Rye,
• Alberto C. Naveira Garabato,
• Paul R. Holland,
• Michael P. Meredith,
• A. J. George Nurser,
• Chris W. Hughes,
• Andrew C. Coward
• & David J. Webb

• Affiliations
• Contributions
• Corresponding author

Nature Geoscience

7,

732–735

(2014)

doi:10.1038/ngeo2230
Received

19 March 2014
Accepted

21 July 2014
Published online

31 August 2014
Citation

• Reprints

• Rights & permissions

• Article metrics

The Antarctic shelf seas are a climatically and ecologically important region, and are at present receiving increasing amounts of freshwater from the melting of the Antarctic Ice Sheet and its fringing ice shelves1, 2, primarily around the Antarctic Peninsula and the Amudsen Sea. In response, the surface ocean salinity in this region has declined in past decades3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. Here, we assess the effects of the freshwater input on regional sea level using satellite measurements of sea surface height (for months with no sea-ice cover) and a global ocean circulation model. We find that from 1992 to 2011, sea-level rise along the Antarctic coast is at least 2 ± 0.8 mm yr−1 greater than the regional mean for the Southern Ocean south of 50° S. On the basis of the model simulations, we conclude that this sea-level rise is almost entirely related to steric adjustment, rather than changes in local ocean mass, with a halosteric rise in the upper ocean and thermosteric contributions at depth. We estimate that an excess freshwater input of 430 ± 230 Gt yr−1 is required to explain the observed sea-level rise. We conclude that accelerating discharge from the Antarctic Ice Sheet has had a pronounced and widespread impact on the adjacent subpolar seas over the past two decades.

 

[Old Rocks]

"The fastest glacial changes are happening where the ocean is warmer,” Schroeder said. “Geothermal heating is not enough by itself to have caused the observed changes.”
So maybe someone could help me here, if the water is frozen and the ice extent is being added by melting surface ice, than how the hell does warm water have anything to do with land glacier melt? How does that warm water make its way on land?

this is where I lose it with you warmer k00ks.

Some of the WAIS glaciers are grounded below sea level.

I know the Ice Sheet is grounded on the sea floor. But I believe the statement was surface ice was melting. Surface in my world is above water on land.

I believe it was old scrocks that said it.

Well, no, JC, I did not say it.

 

[Old Rocks]

What is the minimum temperature you're going to find in the LIQUID sea water washing up against the WAIS, Whizzo?

Minus 2C as defined by physics. The Southern Ocean is not showing any warming so what is your point? Ocean water has been lapping up against the WAIS for as long as it has been there, at least hundreds of thousands of years. But your computer MODEL says everything is going to melt. Am I right? You are so gullible. And you'll believe the next thing you read even if it contradicts what you believed yesterday. As long as its not from a 'denier' of course.

5.3.5 Southern Ocean - AR4 WGI Chapter 5 Observations Oceanic Climate Change and Sea Level

5.3.5.1 Upper-Ocean Property Changes
The upper ocean in the SH has warmed since the 1960s, dominated by changes in the thick near-surface layers called Subantarctic Mode Water (SAMW), located just north of the Antarctic Circumpolar Current (ACC) that encircles Antarctica. The observed warming of SAMW is consistent with the subduction of warmer surface waters from south of the ACC (Wong et al., 2001; Aoki et al., 2003). In the Upper Circumpolar Deep Water (UCDW) in the Indian and Pacific sectors of the Southern Ocean, temperature and salinity have been increasing (on density surfaces) and oxygen has been decreasing between the Subantarctic Front near 45°S and the Antarctic Divergence near 60°S (Aoki et al., 2005a). These changes just below the mixed layer (~100 to 300 m) are consistent with the mixing of warmer and fresher surface waters with UCDW, suggesting an increase in stratification in the surface layer of this polar region.

Mid-depth waters of the Southern Ocean have also warmed in recent decades. As shown in Figure 5.8, temperatures increased near 900 m depth between the 1950s and the 1980s throughout most of the Southern Ocean (Aoki et al., 2003; Gille, 2004). The largest changes are found near the Antarctic Circumpolar Current, where the warming at 900 m depth is similar in magnitude to the increase in regional surface air temperatures. Analysis of altimeter and Argo float profile data suggests that, over the last 10 years, the zonally averaged warming in the upper 400 m of the ocean near 40°S (Willis et al. 2004) is much larger than that seen in long-term trends (see Section 5.2, Figure 5.3 World). The warming results from these analyses have been attributed to a southward shift and increased intensity of the SH westerlies, which would shift the ACC slightly southward and intensify the subtropical gyres (e.g., Cai, 2006).

Check your sources, Ian.

 

[jc456]

"The fastest glacial changes are happening where the ocean is warmer,” Schroeder said. “Geothermal heating is not enough by itself to have caused the observed changes.”
So maybe someone could help me here, if the water is frozen and the ice extent is being added by melting surface ice, than how the hell does warm water have anything to do with land glacier melt? How does that warm water make its way on land?

this is where I lose it with you warmer k00ks.

Some of the WAIS glaciers are grounded below sea level.

I know the Ice Sheet is grounded on the sea floor. But I believe the statement was surface ice was melting. Surface in my world is above water on land.

I believe it was old scrocks that said it.

Well, no, JC, I did not say it.

Well old sckrocks, yes you did!!! I quoted it. Oops...

Shameful to lie like that.

 

[Old Rocks]

"The fastest glacial changes are happening where the ocean is warmer,” Schroeder said. “Geothermal heating is not enough by itself to have caused the observed changes.”
So maybe someone could help me here, if the water is frozen and the ice extent is being added by melting surface ice, than how the hell does warm water have anything to do with land glacier melt? How does that warm water make its way on land?

this is where I lose it with you warmer k00ks.

Some of the WAIS glaciers are grounded below sea level.

I know the Ice Sheet is grounded on the sea floor. But I believe the statement was surface ice was melting. Surface in my world is above water on land.

I believe it was old scrocks that said it.

Well, no, JC, I did not say it.

Well old sckrocks, yes you did!!! I quoted it. Oops...

Shameful to lie like that.

Link, asshole, link.

 

[Old Rocks]

Ol' Walleyes has found his natural peer level and is now answering with repititious nonsense like Frankie Boy.

 

[jc456]

"The fastest glacial changes are happening where the ocean is warmer,” Schroeder said. “Geothermal heating is not enough by itself to have caused the observed changes.”
So maybe someone could help me here, if the water is frozen and the ice extent is being added by melting surface ice, than how the hell does warm water have anything to do with land glacier melt? How does that warm water make its way on land?

this is where I lose it with you warmer k00ks.

Some of the WAIS glaciers are grounded below sea level.

I know the Ice Sheet is grounded on the sea floor. But I believe the statement was surface ice was melting. Surface in my world is above water on land.

I believe it was old scrocks that said it.

Well, no, JC, I did not say it.

Well old sckrocks, yes you did!!! I quoted it. Oops...

Shameful to lie like that.

Link, asshole, link.

Link for what? Your post was #6. My response was #16. What is it you supposedly need?

 

[RollingThunder]

Some of the WAIS glaciers are grounded below sea level.

I know the Ice Sheet is grounded on the sea floor. But I believe the statement was surface ice was melting. Surface in my world is above water on land.

I believe it was old scrocks that said it.

Well, no, JC, I did not say it.

Well old sckrocks, yes you did!!! I quoted it. Oops...

Shameful to lie like that.

Link, asshole, link.

Link for what? Your post was #6. My response was #16. What is it you supposedly need?

What everyone is "needing" from you, JustCrazy, is some indication that your posts aren't being generated by a spam-bot or a mental patient. Since your posts, like this last one quoted above, are just vacuous noise without any rational or even intelligible content, there is also the strong possibility that you are just utterly retarded.