Another Strike in the World's Most "Progressive" Country

[Harmageddon]

Originally posted by Hobbit:
The military, during a time of war, has the toughest, most grueling job on the face of the planet. Very few other occupations involve risk of life and pushing one's self beyond your percieved limits simply by nature. That being said, the U.S. military tries to prepare its soldiers for these conditions. In basic training, the soldiers are broken down both physically and mentally. Their limits are pushed and surpassed. As they are forced to do and endure more than they think they are capable of, those limits get higher and higher. Then, when faced with the real thing, the soldier pushing his body to its limits comes as second nature.

True, but for the fact that no preparation will suffice in getting you close to the gruelling reality of war. Training is just that: training. Unless you start employing methods used during Hitler's Germany to prepare the SS soldiers for the task - i.e. grooming a pet dog and then killing it, torturing people during your training and such - you are not getting close.

Originally posted by Hobbit:
Second, a military needs discipline. Very few things take precedence over the direct orders of a superior officer. Another part of basic training is to teach recruits that they are to follow their orders to the exclusion of anything else unless those orders go against the rules or laws of that army. That being said, disobeying those orders carries an immediate and fairly harsh punishment of taking on an undesirable duty.

True, but for the fact that to obey insane orders is insane. There are many examples through history where sergeants or corporals or other higher ups got frustrated with the enemy, and decided to send the grunts into a certain death strategy. Originally intended to surprise the enemy, many of these decisions based on frustration (corporals are also merely humans) have succeeded in senseless sacrifices of scores of fine soldiers.

That is why it is never a bad thing to question an insane order. And if there is one situation where insanity rides high, it is the frontline of a bloody groundwar.

That said, scrubbing toilets to learn discipline in wartime does not really match the situation well. It would be more of a medic job than that of a real dedicated soldier. Of course soldiers need discipline for a military to function; but there are guidelines as to when an order becomes insane.
That'm my take on the situation.

 

[GotZoom]

That said, scrubbing toilets to learn discipline in wartime does not really match the situation well. It would be more of a medic job than that of a real dedicated soldier. Of course soldiers need discipline for a military to function; but there are guidelines as to when an order becomes insane.
That'm my take on the situation.

Not necessarily true. In Boot Camp, you are instructed to fold your underwear in, for example, 4 inch squares. Hangers much be 4 1/2 inches apart on the rack, etc.

Reason for this is because if you can't do the simple things, how can anyone count on you to do the big things. You are an aircraft mechanic - instructions say the torque must be X....you do X +/- 1/16th. You could be responsible for that airplane crashing.

I constantly use that phrase today. People get sick of hearing it from me sometimes. But if I can't rely on you to get to work on time, or take 60 minutes for lunch, not 65, etc...how can I count on you to do the hard stuff?

It's all about discipline. Unfortunately, with many people joining the military, they have no discipine coming in. Sometimes that service of the military has to take someone and teach them in 6 weeks things they never were taught in their entire life.

 

[Harmageddon]

Originally posted by GotZoom:
It's all about discipline. Unfortunately, with many people joining the military, they have no discipine coming in. Sometimes that service of the military has to take someone and teach them in 6 weeks things they never were taught in their entire life.

I understand that discipline is required, as I've said.
In my view however, there are limits to what a certain individual can command me to do, even in an army, even at a time of war. I understand that were I a soldier at wartime, I would need to give my life's worth in obeying commands to the best of my ability.
Up onto the point where the commands do not make sense.
And I don't mean a command based on a tactical decision that is too large for me as a soldier on the ground to understand - I would just have to follow it and hope my superiours are knowing what they are doing.

But when I would get a command that I do grasp to it's fullest effect, and with which I utterly disagree for tactical or strategical reasons of my own, then I would disobey the command, and try and explain to the superiour in question why I think his/her command is not the best decision that can be made at the given situation.

That I would need to scrub toilets at my training - so be it. That is not a big deal. If the command were based on learning discipline, or because I deserve it for whatever reason, fine, I'll obey to my fullest capability.

For a superiour to give that order solely because he doesn't like my face or for whatever idiotic reason, he/she can go scrub it himself. Such a command based on nothing but childish emotional behaviour I will never follow, no matter if it is the president himself that commands me to do so.

But then I am Dutch, we're known for our Calvinistic disobedience.

 

[CSM]

I understand that discipline is required, as I've said.
In my view however, there are limits to what a certain individual can command me to do, even in an army, even at a time of war. I understand that were I a soldier at wartime, I would need to give my life's worth in obeying commands to the best of my ability.
Up onto the point where the commands do not make sense.
And I don't mean a command based on a tactical decision that is too large for me as a soldier on the ground to understand - I would just have to follow it and hope my superiours are knowing what they are doing.

But when I would get a command that I do grasp to it's fullest effect, and with which I utterly disagree for tactical or strategical reasons of my own, then I would disobey the command, and try and explain to the superiour in question why I think his/her command is not the best decision that can be made at the given situation.

That I would need to scrub toilets at my training - so be it. That is not a big deal. If the command were based on learning discipline, or because I deserve it for whatever reason, fine, I'll obey to my fullest capability.

For a superiour to give that order solely because he doesn't like my face or for whatever idiotic reason, he/she can go scrub it himself. Such a command based on nothing but childish emotional behaviour I will never follow, no matter if it is the president himself that commands me to do so.

But then I am Dutch, we're known for our Calvinistic disobedience.

And that, my friend, is what makes the Netherlands so great!

 

[Mr. P]

...

But when I would get a command that I do grasp to it's fullest effect, and with which I utterly disagree for tactical or strategical reasons of my own, then I would disobey the command, and try and explain to the superiour in question why I think his/her command is not the best decision that can be made at the given situation.

...

And that is why The Netherlands has such a superior Military.

 

[Mr. P]

And that, my friend, is what makes the Netherlands so great!

Great minds think alike.

 

[dmp]

I understand that discipline is required, as I've said.
In my view however, there are limits to what a certain individual can command me to do, even in an army, even at a time of war. I understand that were I a soldier at wartime, I would need to give my life's worth in obeying commands to the best of my ability.
Up onto the point where the commands do not make sense.
And I don't mean a command based on a tactical decision that is too large for me as a soldier on the ground to understand - I would just have to follow it and hope my superiours are knowing what they are doing.

In the US Military, servicemen and women are obligated to follow every lawful order - likewise, they are duty-bound to NOT follow unlawful orders. Orders which don't make sense to a soldier are orders which were not given correctly. Speaking for the Army - Leaders need to keep soldiers SO informed of the intent of the mission, situations where a soldier wouldn't understand the 'why' are kept to a minimum.

But when I would get a command that I do grasp to it's fullest effect, and with which I utterly disagree for tactical or strategical reasons of my own, then I would disobey the command, and try and explain to the superiour in question why I think his/her command is not the best decision that can be made at the given situation.

If you were my soldier, and in the heat of battle you did NOT do what I told you to do, immediately, I'd shoot you in the leg and have medical evacuated. After you heal, I'd drop by and kick your ass, before asking you be confined to prison.

That I would need to scrub toilets at my training - so be it. That is not a big deal. If the command were based on learning discipline, or because I deserve it for whatever reason, fine, I'll obey to my fullest capability.

Every command a drill instructor gives a soldier is about learning. In scrubbing toilets, soldiers learn humility, attention to detail, and pride in one's job.

For a superiour to give that order solely because he doesn't like my face or for whatever idiotic reason, he/she can go scrub it himself. Such a command based on nothing but childish emotional behaviour I will never follow, no matter if it is the president himself that commands me to do so.

But then I am Dutch, we're known for our Calvinistic disobedience.

...but it doesn't really matter, does it? You'd be bound by your oath to follow the lawful orders/directives of those you work for. That's the beauty of Military service - if you don't like your boss, realize he or she will be transfered soon enough...and if you're good, you'll be promoted too - keeping you from a lot of that stuff.

 

[Harmageddon]

Originally posted by Mr. P:
And that is why The Netherlands has such a superior Military.

Actually, our navy is one of the most sophisticated and technologically advanced in the world. And the reason why our military is not superiour to yours has more to do with the limits of a population that is a twentieth the size than with unions to protect the soldier's rights to have a decent command.

If you are so superiour, why not invade China and bring them democracy? There's a billion people there begging for your salvation army.
(BTW that is sarcasm, just in case)

 

[dmp]

And the reason why our military is not superiour to yours has more to do with the limits of a population that is a twentieth the size than with unions to protect the soldier's rights to have a decent command.

Negative - size of a force pool is NOT indicative of it's strength...think:

US vs Iraq
Israel vs. ANYONE



Unionized Soldiers will NEVER be as tactically proficient as 'real' soldiers, imo. Unionized soldiers are not much more than defense contractors/mercinaries.

 

[Mr. P]

Actually, our navy is one of the most sophisticated and technologically advanced in the world. And the reason why our military is not superiour to yours has more to do with the limits of a population that is a twentieth the size than with unions to protect the soldier's rights to have a decent command.

If you are so superiour, why not invade China and bring them democracy? There's a billion people there begging for your salvation army.
(BTW that is sarcasm, just in case)

Not to mention a stupid question..

But I looooveeee the "with unions to protect the soldier's rights to have a decent command. " bunch a pussies! Wanna know where you're heading? Check out France. (BTW that's NOT sarcasm).

 

[Harmageddon]

Originally posted by dmp:
Negative - size of a force pool is NOT indicative of it's strength...think:

US vs Iraq
Israel vs. ANYONE

Erm..not quite.
First of all, are you saying the US is losing in Iraq?
Secondly, Israel could be turned into a pool of radiant green glass by the US or Russia any day, were it a war situation between them.

As to the heart of your remarks, obviously technological advancement comes into play, as well as the strength of morale of the troops. What I'm saying is, the size of an army has more to do with the fact that the Netherlands is not waging war on a global scale on it's own than the fact that we have unions to protect our soldiers from senseless command.

You cannot possibly think that if we decided to abandon our soldier's unions, we would thus be an invincible force, ready to take over the whole situation in Iraq, and while we're at it, invade Russia and the United States as well. That is just ludicrous.

Equeally ludicrous is the statement that were the United States to install a union structure for it's soldiers, that it would automatically have such a deranged army that it would be easily invaded by Aruban tough as nails forces. That will never happen, because no matter how tough they get, they will always have the far lesser numbers.

As for Iraq, the fact that Iraqi forces are fighting on homeground is obviously a morale strengthening situation for them. You may compare it with football.

 

[Harmageddon]

Originally posted by CSM:
And that, my friend, is what makes the Netherlands so great!

I'll take that as a compliment

 

[dmp]

Erm..not quite.
First of all, are you saying the US is losing in Iraq?
Secondly, Israel could be turned into a pool of radiant green glass by the US or Russia any day, were it a war situation between them.

No - I'm saying the US had a MUCH MUCH Smaller force than the Iraqi Army when they attacked...and Israel can kick anybody's ass, regardless.

And the point about Nuclear weaponry argues FOR me; You stated the US has a 'stronger force' because it's got more people to choose from. I'm countering saying population size has nothing to do with a military's might.

What I'm saying is, the size of an army has more to do with the fact that the Netherlands is not waging war on a global scale on it's own than the fact that we have unions to protect our soldiers from senseless command.

And I and others are saying your unions HURT your military's ability to wage war.

You cannot possibly think that if we decided to abandon our soldier's unions, we would thus be an invincible force, ready to take over the whole situation in Iraq, and while we're at it, invade Russia and the United States as well. That is just ludicrous.

You are correct, I do NOT think that. I DO know (not think...it's not opinion, it's FACT) your unionized force is WEAKER than what it'd be if the unions were abolished.

Equeally ludicrous is the statement that were the United States to install a union structure for it's soldiers, that it would automatically have such a deranged army that it would be easily invaded by Aruban tough as nails forces.

Who made that statement?

As for Iraq, the fact that Iraqi forces are fighting on homeground is obviously a morale strengthening situation for them. You may compare it with football.

The Iraqi forces indeed are doing a good job, fighting side-by-side with American and coalition forces. Commendable.

 

[CSM]

I'll take that as a compliment

It was meant as such...you are obviously happy with the way things are run in the Netherlands. Nothing wrong with that.

The army employed by the Netherlands is probably ideal for the Netherlands at this point in time. After all, there is no need for a disciplined Army in the Netherlands because as you point out, no one is invading you and you are not planning on invading anyone anytime soon.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

So wait. THis is a thread of military nerds arguing about who's army is better? Scary.

 

[GotZoom]

Mine's bigger.

Oh wait...it really is.

 

[CSM]

So wait. THis is a thread of military nerds arguing about who's army is better? Scary.

Military nerds?????

 

[thirteen31]

all you have to know about the Dutch army, I saw some of their
soldiers having dreadlocks and long hair.

No wonder they run from the Serbs. Worthless army.

Okay, so explain this again? Some soldiers in the Dutch army have dreadlocks and long hair and that's why they ran from the Serbs and made them worthless? Am I making sense?