Another look at those 'gubmint' schools. . . .

The maximum award for the 2008-09 award year is $4,731.

Dude, what school can we attend for $4,731/year?

You have no grasp of economics. Congratulations. :clap2:

Coming from a deep thinker like you............:eek:

NO offense, but responses like these doesn't really show that you are a deep thinker
yourself
:[

Again, and sadly, it all comes down to the allmighty dollar

:eusa_hand:

Bullshit

Another look at those 'gubmint' schools. . . .

America pays way too much for education compared with other industrialized countries. I wish the US would cut educational spending so that I'd have more money to spend on private education for my kids.

Comparing education in the USA's with other industrialized countries is absurd.
 
You folks DO know there are dedicated, caring teachers out there in Public School Land that really do care about their students, want what's best for them, and really do believe they can make a difference, right?

Sometimes our hands are tied by the Bureaucrats that haven't even been in a classroom, or haven't been in one in 20 years. Yet we have to follow the rules, or lose our jobs. Creativity is being stifled because of so much depends on Standarized Testing. The teachers are sick of it, and so are the students. Just ask any teacher what they think about it. Of course it's important to monitor progress, but when almost everything you are supposed to do is geared toward testing, it's not helping anyone. Boredom doesn't get children to learn, but creative and interesting lessons do.
 
You folks DO know there are dedicated, caring teachers out there in Public School Land that really do care about their students, want what's best for them, and really do believe they can make a difference, right?

Sometimes our hands are tied by the Bureaucrats that haven't even been in a classroom, or haven't been in one in 20 years. Yet we have to follow the rules, or lose our jobs. Creativity is being stifled because of so much depends on Standarized Testing. The teachers are sick of it, and so are the students. Just ask any teacher what they think about it. Of course it's important to monitor progress, but when almost everything you are supposed to do is geared toward testing, it's not helping anyone. Boredom doesn't get children to learn, but creative and interesting lessons do.
Not to mention that there is no evidence that private schools do a better job. But hey, if Dud says it is true, it must be.

:lol:
 
Normally I wouldn't mispell words intentionally in the thread title or in a post, but that's the way it was spelled when the idea was presented to me, it sort of caught the flavor of the thesis, and it certainly attracted immediate attention in a way I think the correct spelling might not have accomplished. But I'll take my appropriate licking for what must be a failed attempt at humor and/or irony.

lol.. not a problem. but that type of thing is one of the reasons i think the person who gave you the thread info isn't particularly impressive. it's not an attempt at humor on his part, it's an attempt to show his disdain for government.

in return, i feel it appropriate to show my disdain for him.

you, i like, actually, and my intent wasn't to insult you. i just don't get how anyone can have a serious discussion about government and what it should and shouldn't do by sinking to that level.

It wouldn't have been humorous or ironic, however, if almost all kids beyond a certain age could spell 'government'. It has been my experience that isn't always that way, however.

And I can assure you that people don't homeschool only because of religious or political extremism.

I have never known anyone who homeschooled (assuming they don't live in a horrible school district or have other issues) who didn't do so because they didn't want their child 'infected' with "liberal" ideas like the earth being more than 6,000 years old, or it not being acceptable to discriminate against a classmate because he/she is gay.

There are about 150 kids in the AWANA program sponsored by my church alone, most are homeschooled, and many of the parents of those kids are not active in either the church or politics. But they are passionate about education and serious about protecting their kids from some of the worst elements of the public schools. So they homeschool. Do you honestly believe that such people are abnormal in some way? If so, that would be really sad.

Abnormal? Not the word I would use. Misguided is more like it. You used an interesting word, though. What "elements" do you mean? Racially mixed classes? Mothers who work outside the home? Atheists? Jews? Muslims? Gays? Creationism not being science?

I think those are the things homeschoolers want to protect their kids from and, honestly, I might be wrong about that, but I've never known anyone who's proven me to be wrong in that regard.
 
There are about 150 kids in the AWANA program sponsored by my church alone, most are homeschooled, and many of the parents of those kids are not active in either the church or politics. But they are passionate about education and serious about protecting their kids from some of the worst elements of the public schools. So they homeschool. Do you honestly believe that such people are abnormal in some way? If so, that would be really sad.

Abnormal? Not the word I would use. Misguided is more like it. You used an interesting word, though. What "elements" do you mean? Racially mixed classes? Mothers who work outside the home? Atheists? Jews? Muslims? Gays? Creationism not being science?

I think those are the things homeschoolers want to protect their kids from and, honestly, I might be wrong about that, but I've never known anyone who's proven me to be wrong in that regard.

Worst elements: sex among the stacks in the library, in the halls, etc.; gang activity; bullyism; teachers who dress like hookers; indoctrination of ideology rather than teaching the basics; social promotions; wasting time; necessity of taking common sense out of enforcing rules and regs in order to be able to enforce them at all; rampant use of illegal substances; inability to prevent or persuade students from being brutally cruel to others; discouragement of acknowledgment or practice of traditions and/or traditional values; etc. etc. etc.

I don't know how many homeschoolers you know but, as previously posted, I know a lot. And they represent the full gamut of races including black, white, Native American, Hispanic, and Asian. I don't know if the non-Hispanic whites in our AWANA program are the majority or not. You can't tell by looking. You might disapprove of the curriculum they get at home, but their overall much higher than average performance on national tests suggests they're getting the basics. So far as I know, religious affiliation is not an issue nor is it even monitored.

The thing is Jillian, is that it is working for these kids. Almost all graduate from highschool and go on to higher education with most qualifying for very good schools. They are almost all involved in community service or other worthwhile extra curricular activities, they are very well adjusted socially, and they're really good kids.

I don't know why you might want to denigrate that kind of success. It might not be your cup of tea. But why would you want it to be different for them?
 
You folks DO know there are dedicated, caring teachers out there in Public School Land that really do care about their students, want what's best for them, and really do believe they can make a difference, right?

Sometimes our hands are tied by the Bureaucrats that haven't even been in a classroom, or haven't been in one in 20 years. Yet we have to follow the rules, or lose our jobs. Creativity is being stifled because of so much depends on Standarized Testing. The teachers are sick of it, and so are the students. Just ask any teacher what they think about it. Of course it's important to monitor progress, but when almost everything you are supposed to do is geared toward testing, it's not helping anyone. Boredom doesn't get children to learn, but creative and interesting lessons do.

Absolutely. I come from a long line of educators and, as previously posted, there are many in my family and most of those have taught and/or are teaching in the public schools. I wholeheartedly believe that teaching to any test does stifle creativity and limits the scope and possibilities of education overall. At the same time there something to say for informing the kids what they are expected to learn to make a grade, etc. and not compromising that out of some fuzzy notion of boosting their self esteem. I can imagine you are an excellent teacher EZ and know as well as anybody that the very best boost to anybody's self esteem is accomplishing something difficult and worthwhile. No child should be denied that gift.

And there are very good public schools out there, but they have become so very rare anymore. I long for the schools where teachers, parents, and the community at large shared most basic values which included giving the kids the best education possible and all shared responsibility for that. And in my opinion therein is the key to good education and the reason that private and parochial schools are usually out performing the public schools.
 
I'm just going to nitpick this first paragraph because I'm bored...

Worst elements: sex among the stacks in the library, in the halls, etc.;
This has to be hyperbole. Now way is sex in the halls common. Making out? Yeah. Some groping? You can get away with it. But full on sex... in the hallways? Now way is that common enough to even mention. And if it is, I'd like to go to that school.

gang activity;
True. In the worst schools, drug dealing and violence are major problems.

My high school didn't have any gangs, except for the Flag Corps.

bullyism;
There must be a lot of kids on this forum :D

teachers who dress like hookers;
My favorite kinds. Seriously though, this can't be common enough to justify a condemnation of public schools. It's a little subjective, too, right? I mean, I've got pretty dismal standards about dressing like a hooker, which means there would be much 'dressing' at all.

indoctrination of ideology rather than teaching the basics;
This is really why i responded. I see this term 'indoctrination' used around here, and it's such an empty phrase. Indoctrination is just code word for 'teaching what i disagree with'. Creationist probably think evolutionary theory is indoctrination. Is it? And wouldn't another parent see creationism as indoctrination?

social promotions;
I have no idea what this means. Community service?

wasting time;
It's true. And also, when some people were actually working, I was daydreaming. I think wasting time can be said about anything peeps do. Office jobs, internet instead of homework, the SEC...

necessity of taking common sense out of enforcing rules and regs in order to be able to enforce them at all;
Thing about common sense is, everybody thinks that have it.

rampant use of illegal substances;
Yeah. It happens in the worst, and is a good reason to change schools or go to homeschooling. It's unfortunate that not everybody has that option because, out of all the things parents should be concerned about, I think peer drug use is up near the top of the list of dangers to their kids.

inability to prevent or persuade students from being brutally cruel to others;
It happens. The reason it doesn't happen in homeschooling is because there are no peers around. Also those kids don't get the benefits that come with being around their peers on a frequent basis, which is what I think is a major downside of homeschooling.

discouragement of acknowledgment or practice of traditions and/or traditional values; etc. etc. etc.
huh?



I know all these are the worst elements, and they do happen. But I really, really doubt it's common enough to justify a systemic failing of public schools. There are benefits, especially socially, to public (as in, being around other kids in a classroom) schooling that I believe are far more common than these negatives.
 
I know all these are the worst elements, and they do happen. But I really, really doubt it's common enough to justify a systemic failing of public schools. There are benefits, especially socially, to public (as in, being around other kids in a classroom) schooling that I believe are far more common than these negatives.

They are all more common than you seem to believe because they are all so frequently in the news. And even as school colors or inflammatory wording on T Shirts or anything that might offend a non-patriot or minority religion or whatever are often banned, few schools otherwise maintain much of a dress code any more even for staff; therefore in my opinion, the dress of some of the teachers is appalling. Perhaps that is why so many are unable to command much respect?

But the most telling condemnation is that U.S. students are too often far behind their counterparts in many European and Asian countries in the most basic field of math, science, language skills, et al. And while there are good public schools, on average they are accomplishing significantly less success in educating kids than are the private, parochial, and homeschooled kids. The evidence also is that those homeschooled kids are quite well adjusted socially and almost none feel they are missing out on any socialization opportunities by being homeschooled. Almost without exception the homeschooled kids I've met all LIKE being homeschooled and do not wish to change that.
 
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They are all more common than you seem to believe because they are all so frequently in the news.
I think the media has a commercial incentive to downplay the positive (of anything) and expand the negative, because it creates conflict. And conflict and controversy is what sells.

And even as school colors or inflammatory wording on T Shirts or anything that might offend a non-patriot or minority religion or whatever are often banned, few schools otherwise maintain much of a dress code any more even for staff; therefore in my opinion, the dress of some of the teachers is appalling. Perhaps that is why so many are unable to command much respect?

I guess I can really only speak about my experiences in my old high school, my younger brother's, and the one I volunteered at for a semester. Strip-tease teachers were non-existent.

I'm not saying lax dress codes don't exist, but that a vastly overwhelming majority of teachers are professional enough to keep their slinky mini dresses and banana hammocks in the closet until Saturday night.



But the most telling condemnation is that U.S. students are too often far behind their counterparts in many European and Asian countries in the most basic field of math, science, language skills, et al.
Agreed.



And while there are good public schools, on average they are accomplishing significantly less success in educating kids than are the private, parochial, and homeschooled kids.
There was that one link earlier in this thread that argued the direct opposite, that bad and good schools can be found equally in both public and private.

I'm not sure which is right. Could make for an interesting tangent.




The evidence also is that those homeschooled kids are quite well adjusted socially and almost none feel they are missing out on any socialization opportunities by being homeschooled. Almost without exception the homeschooled kids I've met all LIKE being homeschooled and do not wish to change that.
I'm too lazy right now to go looking for sociological studies to disprove the quote. I think you mentioned earlier that you have experience with homeschooling--I don't--so I'll just take your word for it, because I want to believe that kids being home schooled aren't at a social-development disadvantage.

The one question I do have, though, is how many of those kids were previously in public schools, and remember what that environment was like? I could say, "yeah, I'm happier in America than I would be in France"...but I've never been to France, so wouldn't really know for sure.
 
They are all more common than you seem to believe because they are all so frequently in the news.
I think the media has a commercial incentive to downplay the positive (of anything) and expand the negative, because it creates conflict. And conflict and controversy is what sells.

And even as school colors or inflammatory wording on T Shirts or anything that might offend a non-patriot or minority religion or whatever are often banned, few schools otherwise maintain much of a dress code any more even for staff; therefore in my opinion, the dress of some of the teachers is appalling. Perhaps that is why so many are unable to command much respect?

I guess I can really only speak about my experiences in my old high school, my younger brother's, and the one I volunteered at for a semester. Strip-tease teachers were non-existent.

I'm not saying lax dress codes don't exist, but that a vastly overwhelming majority of teachers are professional enough to keep their slinky mini dresses and banana hammocks in the closet until Saturday night.

Teachers dressed appropriately when I was in school too, and I don't recall any inappropriate dress when my kids were in school. But it was not long ago that I kid you not that I saw a highschool teacher at La Cueva HS, one of our better ones, here in Albuquerque, teaching a class. She was wearing a tank top and short shorts. That's the worst I've seen, but I have seen others that weren't a lot better. Is that the norm across town? Probably not. But geez. . . . .

And while there are good public schools, on average they are accomplishing significantly less success in educating kids than are the private, parochial, and homeschooled kids.
There was that one link earlier in this thread that argued the direct opposite, that bad and good schools can be found equally in both public and private.

I'm not sure which is right. Could make for an interesting tangent.

Of course there are bad private schools and I'm sure there are parents that just aren't up to the job of homeschooling their kids. But on average--you did note that I posted 'on average'?--the statistics are pretty definite that the public schools come in well behind the others on SAT and ACT scores, graduation rates, the number of kids who go on to higher education, etc. So equally bad as public schools. The evidence suggests otherwise.

Again there are some excellent public schools and excellent public school teachers. My intent is not to denigrate anybody or any school. But the thesis of the thread is that despite considerable sacrifice required, many parents feel their kids' education is important enought to make sacrifices and they do what they must to get their kids into good schools which more often than not will be private schools. Or they homeschool.

The evidence also is that those homeschooled kids are quite well adjusted socially and almost none feel they are missing out on any socialization opportunities by being homeschooled. Almost without exception the homeschooled kids I've met all LIKE being homeschooled and do not wish to change that.
I'm too lazy right now to go looking for sociological studies to disprove the quote. I think you mentioned earlier that you have experience with homeschooling--I don't--so I'll just take your word for it, because I want to believe that kids being home schooled aren't at a social-development disadvantage.

The one question I do have, though, is how many of those kids were previously in public schools, and remember what that environment was like? I could say, "yeah, I'm happier in America than I would be in France"...but I've never been to France, so wouldn't really know for sure.

I posted earlier the experience of a family member who was homeschooled for several years. And then he and his parents decided to put in into the public school when he started highschool. Within two weeks he was begging to come home and resume home schooling. Why? Because even at that tender age he recognized how much time was wasted, how much went on that had nothing to do with education, how much further ahead he was than his classmates, etc. etc.

And I also posted a link earlier of studies that show homeschooled kids are socialized very well. Parents who homeschool also make the effort to see that their kids are involved in other activities that result in positive socialization.

Look, I'm not advocating private schools or homeschooling as the answer for everybody. But instead of defending poor schools, all of us should be pushing for the fix for poor schools and providing all the children with the best possible education. Since the USA is spending more per capita on education than almost any other country but lag well behind most, and some of the school districts receiving the most money are producing the poorest results, it should be obvious to everybody that throwing more money at the problem won't fix it.

I say get the federal government and teachers' union out of it and put the schools back in the hands of the parents, teachers, and community. Let the federal government collect statistics and information and dispense to the schools to use as they wish, but education should not be managed by Washington bureaucrats.
 

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