Another green co. kaput, well not dead yet....

[TakeAStepBack]

When the technology is mature and viable, it won't need government subsidies to expand.

It doesn't NEED them now. But it will expand more quickly with them, and it's a technology we need, so the subsidies are useful.

This seems counterintuitive. If they don't need the subsidies, why are we wasting money doing it? there are more failings/waste when the subsidies are involved than not. Because these do not get divided across the board, they end up in the accounts of cronies to govt. administrations in power to issue them.

The market will develop the technology infinitely faster and better when left to foster competitiona nd innovation naturally. As always.

 

[Dragon]

10% of a growing consumption over a decade. It isn't going to replace fossil fuels in the next 50 years. Probably not even in the next 100 years.

What's important here is the rate of growth, and also the fact that it has recently crossed a price threshold which allows it to grow much, much faster. Two of my clients are in the renewable-power industry or connected to it, and I've done a lot of research on the subject in the course of writing articles about it over the past few months; I know what I'm talking about here. We are poised on truly explosive growth, which has at this point barely started -- but it HAS started.

Have you considered the fact that solar and wind power are suitable for a decentralized approach, much more so than fossil fuels or nuclear power? Would you not prefer to have each homeowner be able to control his or her own electric power rather than having them be at the mercy of monopolistic utilities and government regulators? That's what renewable energy offers. True, there are also some big power projects under way, but a lot of the growth in the industry has been in home systems, and that's going to be even more true in the future.

Just throwing that in because I know you are believing what you want to believe, so I'd like to point out that you have more reason to want to believe the contrary.

 

[saveliberty]

I've heard that for the last 30 years dragon.

 

[Dragon]

I've heard that for the last 30 years dragon.

What you've heard for the last 30 years is that renewable energy will, someday, necessarily replace fossil fuels.

What you're hearing at this time is that it is able to so NOW -- or quite shortly. The technology exists, NOW.

That's new.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

You're arguing the WRONG point. I'm all for alternative energy, and government doesn't provide that by pumping money down drains with favoritism. If anything, it stunts overall economic growth and in the industry.

I don't buy for a minute you know what you're talking about because you're dancing around dodging the main point I'm making here. Furthermore, while these renewable set the pace to make homeowners and businesses on the smaller scales more energy independent, to make these products we rely on fossil energies. Unless a solar panel manufacturer is making the products by solar power.....and so forth.

10% is a figure based on assumptions. It's a great leap forward from LESS than 1%, but it's a far cry from "explosive growth". Again it's pipe dreaming. I like pipe dreams in the private sector free of govt. interferrence. That's how innovation happens. But govt. should be focused on paying for the shit it has already spent, instead of piling debt onto us by pissing our money away on the sylindra of the day...

I don't "believe what i want to believe", I believe in the facts of the situation. You're the one pipe dreaming from the govt. teat on this. Which is where I completely disagree. it doesnt work, causes waste, causes corruption and spoils the industries competition with favoritism.

 

[Dragon]

You're arguing the WRONG point. I'm all for alternative energy, and givernment doesn't provide that by pumping money down drains with favoritism. If anything, it stunts overall economic growth and in the industry.

If you want to talk about the observable, measurable facts regarding the growing renewable-energy industry, I'm your man. If all you want to do is spout boiler-plate free-market libertarian ideology, I can't be bothered. You believe that government support "stunts overall economic growth" as a matter of dogma, you will not be persuaded otherwise by any amount of factual evidence or logical argument because your mind is made up, just like any other devout religious believer's, and it would be a waste of my time.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

The facts here seem to be you dont understand economics. It isn't dogma to say that the govt. is pissing away money by giving it over to companies. There are quite a few observabel, FACTUAL cases to support this as true. The industry will do it just fine without any interference.

I'm not a religious believer. I know economics because I've spent years reading about all types of economic theory. At any rate, you're the dude that tried to say that technology spikes the division of labor. You just want to believe you're right. Go ahead on.

Dont stop! Believing! Hold on to that feelin', brother.

 

[saveliberty]

I've heard that for the last 30 years dragon.

What you've heard for the last 30 years is that renewable energy will, someday, necessarily replace fossil fuels.

What you're hearing at this time is that it is able to so NOW -- or quite shortly. The technology exists, NOW.

That's new.

Wrong, all that crap has been spewed for decades. Almost word for word.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

The best part is that Dragon is trying to tell us the exact opposite of the OP and so many others just like it. Govt. loans to businesses that fail and so on. Then tells us it works and doesn't cause any drag on the economy.

 

[saveliberty]

There are several other large solar companies ready to fail too.

 

[Dragon]

The facts here seem to be you dont understand economics.

No, sir. The fact is that you, like most free-market true believers, confuse agreeing with your ideology with "knowledge of economics."

The reason that I don't agree with you is that I DO understand economics.

 

[Dragon]

Wrong, all that crap has been spewed for decades. Almost word for word.

No, it hasn't, and you holding your breath and stomping your foot isn't going to change that.

If you want to understand whether the solar power industry AS A WHOLE is doing well, what you need to do is look at figures for overall production and sales. The fact that this or that individual renewable energy company is failing means doodly-squat. In any industry that exists, there are going to be unsuccessful companies; you know that if you know anything about the challenge of starting a business. Pick any industry you like and it will be possible to go through it and find failures. It means nothing.

Here's what means something: US Solar Facts & Charts

Also this: Solar power growth jumps to new record | Reuters

The industry is in rapid-growth mode. Yes, some companies are going to fail. But many are succeeding, and overall the industry is doing very well indeed. And if you look at that growth quantitatively, you can see that attributing all of that growth to government subsidies, as some of you are trying to do, is horseshit. Prices of solar panels BEFORE any subsidies have dropped to the point where they can compete with natural gas, and they've been able to compete with nuclear for years. Coal is still cheaper I think, but not when you factor in the environmental drawbacks. None of that is due to subsidies; all of it is due to improvements in the technology together with economies of scale in the manufacturing.

Arguments against government assistance to renewable energy fall into two categories, those from ignorance (i.e., claims that the industry can't succeed, when all the available evidence is that it both can and is) and those from ideology (i.e., claims on principle that all government interference in the "free market" is bad). I can't answer the second except to say that I don't share your religious belief. I answer the first by reference to the facts; see above.

 

[saveliberty]

I know what I have read over the last thirty years dragon. You're either uninformed, a lair or paid promoter.

Government has been supporting solar for decades. Advancements have been incredibly slow. Jumping from nearly nonexistent to a small contributor might look impressive on a percantage basis, but means little.

 

[Ronalds]

Well i think There will be many failures, and a few stellar performers that manage to stay ahead of the development curve. In the meantime, solar is increasing by a 30% to 50% a year.