Another difference between Liberals & Conservatives

[midcan5]

Your personal definitions have some scholarly support.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics...nt-moral-universe8212and-heres-why-it-matters

I always thought this article put it best:

Perverted, God-Hating Frenchies vs. Inbred, Sex-Obsessed Yokels
Understanding the truth (and lies) about liberals and conservatives By Steven Waldman - Beliefnet.com

The truth shall set you free. Both posts above contain what is the crux of the matter in most of these debates. We could debate whether the parameters are so obvious or fit perfectly one or the other ideology, but that is a quibble.

The only serious concern I have with either opinion is, yes, right, but there are consequences to ideas and how we live in the world. After all we are not just talking about personal ideology but how we live in the world and what we consider important. After Bush (AB) the results of one set of ideologies are in, and the scorecard is not good, so let's see how that other ideology does. It did Ok after the GD till the eighties.



"It is in the admission of ignorance and the admission of uncertainty that there is a hope for the continuous motion of human beings in some direction that doesn't get confined, permanently blocked, as it has so many times before in various periods in the history of man." Richard Feynman

 

[Shadow]

as a liberal....i dont find anything you have said insulting or untrue....democrats like to come off as pollyanna's in blue jeans while robbing the candy from the babies....republicans like to come on as high and mighty moral and just...while just robbing everyone...

on here i am amazed at the people who claim to be moral and yet their posts reflect a total immorality..
they claim to live by the word of their bible yet spew hate and venom. all religions are guilty of this mindset and people today..have made poltical parties a religion...referring to the president as "the messiah" shameful

Democrats definately do NOT come off as "Pollyanna's". Not even close. A party that sets out to destroy the lives of people it doesn't like politically is NOT Pollyanna like. And they are definately out to rob "everyone" not just the cutesy little babies.

 

[Coyote]

It's fairly simple:

A liberal is more concerned about distributing the eggs that the golden goose produces, a conservative is more concerned about the health of the golden goose.

I liked that, funny.

I thought of it like this, we're all on the same ship. The Conservatives are checking the horizon and watching for shoals and reefs.

The Liberals are making sure that everyone gets aboard the ship

Fixed it for you

 

[Cecilie1200]

Your personal definitions have some scholarly support.
Conservatives Live in a Different Moral Universe—And Here's Why It Matters | Mother Jones

I always thought this article put it best:

Perverted, God-Hating Frenchies vs. Inbred, Sex-Obsessed Yokels
Understanding the truth (and lies) about liberals and conservatives By Steven Waldman - Beliefnet.com

The truth shall set you free. Both posts above contain what is the crux of the matter in most of these debates. We could debate whether the parameters are so obvious or fit perfectly one or the other ideology, but that is a quibble.

The only serious concern I have with either opinion is, yes, right, but there are consequences to ideas and how we live in the world. After all we are not just talking about personal ideology but how we live in the world and what we consider important. After Bush (AB) the results of one set of ideologies are in, and the scorecard is not good, so let's see how that other ideology does. It did Ok after the GD till the eighties.

I don't know which I find funnier: your blase assumption that your personal perception of Bush's administration is the accepted reality for everyone, or your blase assumption that Bush ever represented conservative ideology to anyone but you leftist wingnuts.

"It is in the admission of ignorance and the admission of uncertainty that there is a hope for the continuous motion of human beings in some direction that doesn't get confined, permanently blocked, as it has so many times before in various periods in the history of man." Richard Feynman

See that? It's in ADMITTING you're ignorant, not just in BEING ignorant. Try to internalize that lesson.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It's fairly simple:

A liberal is more concerned about distributing the eggs that the golden goose produces, a conservative is more concerned about the health of the golden goose.

I liked that, funny.

I thought of it like this, we're all on the same ship. The Conservatives are checking the horizon and watching for shoals and reefs.

The Liberals are making sure that everyone gets aboard the ship

Fixed it for you

Not sure, but I think that's not allowed.

What I AM sure about is that if you want to say something, you need to say it yourself, not try to shoehorn it into other people's words. Even if it's not against the rules, it's frigging rude.

 

[Iriemon]

Is this a liberal who is resorting to ad hom attacks?

Acorn is probably the most radical anti-capitalistic organization around today......and one of Obama's closest allies....

Is NRO a right wing blog? Seems bias and dishonest and i was only there for 2 minutes.

National Review is a MAGAZINE
they do have a blog on their site, but that link wasnt to it

you continue to prove yourself a fucking IDIOT

 

[manifold]

I liked that, funny.

I thought of it like this, we're all on the same ship. The Conservatives are checking the horizon and watching for shoals and reefs.

The Liberals are making sure that everyone gets aboard the ship

Fixed it for you

Not sure, but I think that's not allowed.

What I AM sure about is that I'm a whiny crybaby who can't take a joke. So please, don't try to joke with me because I don't like it and that makes it friggin rude. mmkay?.

I fixed it for you this time.

 

[sealybobo]

Is this a liberal who is resorting to ad hom attacks?

Is NRO a right wing blog? Seems bias and dishonest and i was only there for 2 minutes.

National Review is a MAGAZINE
they do have a blog on their site, but that link wasnt to it

you continue to prove yourself a fucking IDIOT

Instead of finding ways that Dems and GOP are the same, which is exactly what the GOP wants you to do, why don't we focus on how/why they are different.

The way I see it, when I run into people who like to discuss politics, I agree with progressives 95% of the time and I agree with conservatives 5% of the time.

So if the politicians are no different, then just concentrate on the difference between the voters. Because as far as we go, the differences are night and day.

So do you want the conservative agenda to continue or not? Because if you vote GOP, then you get tax breaks for the rich, jobs going overseas, an arrogant and dangerous approach to foreign policy, waste that doesn't benefit 95% of us, forget about stem cell or alternative energy, giving offshore tax shelters to the richest Americans, NO healthcare reform, etc.

There must be a difference, otherwise McCain would have won.

Here is one more point. Nothing Conservatives say are wrong. Can you believe I'm saying that? But their problem is, they only tell you have the story. So sure, volcano's pollute the ozone more than human's do. That might be true. But, human's are also contributing to the problem. Or, yes, raising a companies taxes will lead to higher prices. We don't argue their facts, but they argue ours. There are negatives when a company doesn't pay their fair share of taxes. Republicans refuse to acknowledge our facts.

Pay attention to that. They DENY our facts. We don't deny their facts. We just know there is more to the story than what they are presenting. So we/I feel they aren't being intellectually honest. And I/We think either they aren't being honest or they are stupid. People like Willow and Allie for example. I can't tell if they are dumb or do they just buy into every right wing talking point because of other wedge issues like god gays and guns.

So I think Obama agrees with me. You see him approaching all the other politicians like, "listen, lets not play this tired old political game. Lets try and solve these problems for real"

And he's up front and blunt about it. I love that. When he met to discuss healthcare reform, he invited all the people he knows will be the ones to try and kill any reform/changes to the status quo. Since he knows they are going to be doing it, he may as well get them involved and try to find a compromise.

I think the reason you guys think there is no difference is because politics is compromise. Its corporations and the rich vs labor. God knows we don't want corporations to completley get their way or we'd be working for $3 hr. And labor can't completely get their way, even though I wish we could.

 

[chopcrazy]

If there is no golden goose, there are no golden eggs to be distributed to anyone. Get it now???

You all will very soon realize that the socilaistic policies of this President will do little to nothing to improve YOUR human condition. This includes your finances, your retirement, your employment situation, that is, if you are still lucky enough to keep your job within the next 4 years. If you think the Reagan years were bad, with 20 years of growth promoted by his tax cuts across the board I am going to want to hear from you after just 4 of this President's term. It' gonna be very UGLY and very PAINFUL, even for you libs.

Unemployment does not discriminate between conservatives and liberals, sorry libs you are not exempt from this disaster.

The health of the golden goose is important and right now the goose is being starved to death.

You guys sent all the jobs overseas. That is why we have such high unemployment. YOUR FAULT.

Now can Obama bring back the jobs YOUR PARTY lost? I don't know. But it is your party that sold us down the river for cheap foreign labor. Both at home and abroad.

And when you can't deny it any more, you'll admit it and say that it was inevidable.

PS. Everything you said, you guys said the same thing about Clinton.

And, you voted for Bush, so why should anyone listen to you?

Can you show us the data that supports the your claim the all jobs went overseas and is 100% directly related to the high unemployment? Do you think that the real estate bubble bursting had any significant impact on unemployemtn? From your statement, it appears you that you don't or that you believe the jobs sent overseas also caused the real estate bubble to burst.

 

[sealybobo]

If there is no golden goose, there are no golden eggs to be distributed to anyone. Get it now???

You all will very soon realize that the socilaistic policies of this President will do little to nothing to improve YOUR human condition. This includes your finances, your retirement, your employment situation, that is, if you are still lucky enough to keep your job within the next 4 years. If you think the Reagan years were bad, with 20 years of growth promoted by his tax cuts across the board I am going to want to hear from you after just 4 of this President's term. It' gonna be very UGLY and very PAINFUL, even for you libs.

Unemployment does not discriminate between conservatives and liberals, sorry libs you are not exempt from this disaster.

The health of the golden goose is important and right now the goose is being starved to death.

You guys sent all the jobs overseas. That is why we have such high unemployment. YOUR FAULT.

Now can Obama bring back the jobs YOUR PARTY lost? I don't know. But it is your party that sold us down the river for cheap foreign labor. Both at home and abroad.

And when you can't deny it any more, you'll admit it and say that it was inevidable.

PS. Everything you said, you guys said the same thing about Clinton.

And, you voted for Bush, so why should anyone listen to you?

Can you show us the data that supports the your claim the all jobs went overseas and is 100% directly related to the high unemployment? Do you think that the real estate bubble bursting had any significant impact on unemployemtn? From your statement, it appears you that you don't or that you believe the jobs sent overseas also caused the real estate bubble to burst.

Look up how many jobs in the manufacturing sector have been lost since 2000. Do your own homework.

The GOP caused the real estate bubble too. Do I have to prove that to you too?

And jobs going overseas has to do with the real estate bubble too. It's all connected my friend. If millions of people lose their jobs, its going to affect home sales and prices.

PS. I have yet to ever get a reply back from any right winger when I have asked for links or proof. And your request is good proof that you guys aren't really deep thinkers. I bet you don't even know that unemployment is connected to crime rates and prison populations. You need proof for that too?

 

[chopcrazy]

Are you stating a question or making a statement? Are you saying all repulicans are Christians? Can a non-Christian be a republican? Can a Christian be a democrat? What does being a Christian mean?

are you claiming that the repub party isn't the party of the christian right?

how viable is a christian left?

Bobo said that all republicans are Christians. I am sure that there are non-Christians that are republicans just like there are Christians that are democrats.

I would surmise that more of the traits of the republican party align with Christian principals than do the traits of the democratic party. Each person votes based upon which traits/promises are most important to them at election time.

 

[Iriemon]

Is this another liberal resorting to ad homs in lieu of logic, reason and facts?

Perhaps you should try your lecture on the terrorists?

First off, it wasn't a lecture so much as it was an expression of my opinion.

And secondly, why, do you think it will work? If I tell the terrorists that the US shouldn't kill innocent people, you think it'd help? Maybe, but we'd actually have to stop killing innocent people.

Luckily, the DoD thinks that collateral damage is also unacceptable and for at least one of the reasons I do. It is also my opinion that we should somehow give the victims' families something out of regret for killing, maiming, injuring, and/or traumatizing them.

What do you think? "Oh well, too bad, you Muslims shouldn't live in Afghanistan or Pakistan, or where ever it is our bombs landed? I don't think that should be in the federal budget. I'm fiscally conservative, so I don't want a bunch of people to try to get bombed just so they can live off of the US nanny state."

What if it were you or your family accidentally killed by a bomb because of faulty intelligence or a misguided smartbomb or missile? Just envision that for a moment before you answer. What kind of stupid tragedy would that be for you or your family?

Were you being intentionally stupid, or does it just happen randomly?

 

[Iriemon]

Is this a liberal who is resorting to ad hom attacks?

National Review is a MAGAZINE
they do have a blog on their site, but that link wasnt to it

you continue to prove yourself a fucking IDIOT

Instead of finding ways that Dems and GOP are the same, which is exactly what the GOP wants you to do, why don't we focus on how/why they are different.

Political chic, supported by others, maintains that a difference between liberals and conservatives is that liberals appeal to emotion and resort to ad hom attacks instead of logic, reason and fact, as opposed to conservatives.

This assertion has not been retracted, or for that matter, supported by logic, reason and fact, as opposed to emotion.

Therefore, posting examples of conservatives doing the things she and others say only liberals do is completely relevant to the thread.

... Pay attention to that. They DENY our facts. We don't deny their facts. ...

I deny their (and liberals too) so called "facts" every day. And prove they are wrong with citations to US Govt data or other sources.

Just today Evangelical was claiming Obama has ran up more debt in 100 days than Bush did in 8 years. A blantantly false "fact". I've seen that one 3-4 times over the last month. And JReeves couldn't support his claimed "fact" that JFK authorized waterboarding, which was completely false.

 

[Iriemon]

Here's a couple posts from the recent debate on torture, from a conservative and a liberal. Variations of these arguments were made repeatedly by respective members of the right and left.

Which one is appealing to emotion? Which one is relying on logic and reason?

I have asked this to other people. To those who disagree with torture, if a kidnapper buried your child - one hour of air left - would you do ANYTHING to the kidnapper to save your child?

I got one honest answer before. They said of course they would. They wouldn't like it, but they would.

How about the rest of you. Kidnapper in a chair in front of you. Your child will die in one hour. How far will you go to get the info and save your child?

I think in the war on terror, which is really a war of ideals, American ideals will triumph over the values of Islamic radicalism, even though it has a strong point in being religiously based.

But I think the principles of human rights, rule of law, equality before law, democracy, and freedom that made America what Reagan called the shining city on the hill win out over radicalism in the battle for minds.

When America acts consistent with those ideals, she proves their valor. When America slumps to the level of the extremists, with torture, locking people away without due process and disregarding human rights, the line between the good guys and the bad guys gets blurred. Our enemies can say we are hypocrites and that the principles we pretend to stand for are meaningless.

That is why I applaud Obama. It may put us a little more at risk, though I don't think much. But it shows the world that we stand by our principles. Same with closing down Gitmo and trying the prisoners. Same with our nation electing a black man.

We win the war of ideas by standing by what America stands for.

 

[MaggieMae]

I always thought this article put it best:

Perverted, God-Hating Frenchies vs. Inbred, Sex-Obsessed Yokels
Understanding the truth (and lies) about liberals and conservatives By Steven Waldman - Beliefnet.com

Good article. Thanks for posting it. The bottom line, though, is that faith and religion WERE used as a political ploy during the 04 election. A liberal could argue until s/he was blue in the face that he has Christian values but just doesn't need to hear the message given from a pulpit, but he would still be labeled as morally corrupt simply because he wasn't a regular church-goer.

There is another article that I really like:

The Fundamentalist Agenda -- is absolutely natural, ancient, and powerful—but the liberal impulse makes us humane.

It looks at both conservatism (fundamentalism is not just religion) and liberalism in an evolutionary way. There's a need for both, in balance.

Conservatives seek to conserve and preserve - protect traditions and values. Conservatives have an exclusive definition of what is "us" and a suspicion of what is "other".

Liberals seek to push the envelope - to challenge boundaries. They have an "inclusive" definition of what is "us" and constantly seek to expand it.

It's impossible to look at it in just current politics because what was once "liberal" eventually becomes the accepted status quo and hence the value being protected by the conservatives. It's constantly changing.

Superior intelligence to the rest of the animal kingdom is the reason humans will always be required to adapt to change. Wolves will always be wolves, but the Neanderthal disappeared when the more intelligent CroMagnans appeared in smaller numbers.

 

[MaggieMae]

It's iteresting sometimes to sit back an observe the turf war between competing political philosposhies as they battle for our hearts and minds, and especially the territory they control. While there is such a thing as going too far and exceptions notwithstanding, I've generally observed the following: Liberals can more or less be as bigoted as they like with impunity, but if a conservative levies even the slightest criticism on anyone the liberals have identified as protected he is an intolerant bigot. Half of you know this to be true and the other half denies it vehemently and labels me a bigot for pointing it out. Conversely, conservatives can shit all over this country, it's CIC and it's military with impunity, but if a liberal expresses even the slightest disapproval of this country, it's policies, the CIC or any military action, he is unAmerican and unpatriotic.

And we all buy it. Well, at least half of it anyway.



DISCLAIMER: I am using the terms liberal and conservative in accordance with my general understanding of common, contemporary usage, not as I would define them if it were up to me. To me, liberal is the opposite of authoritarian and conservative is the opposite of progressive. That's why I label myself the oxymoronic liberal-conservative. As best as I can estimate contemporarily speaking, liberals are authoritarian-progressive and conservatives are authoritarian-conservative. They are both authoritarian, they just prioritize differently.

I'm curious. When have you ever seen a conservative shitting on the US, the President, and the military?

There are plenty of "conservative" factions that delight in shitting all over the current President. Are you kidding?

 

[MaggieMae]

Are you stating a question or making a statement? Are you saying all repulicans are Christians? Can a non-Christian be a republican? Can a Christian be a democrat? What does being a Christian mean?

are you claiming that the repub party isn't the party of the christian right?

how viable is a christian left?

When did we go from liberal and conservative to Democrat and Republican? They aren't interchangeable, you know.

First, you've got it backwards. There was a time not long ago when Democrats and Republicans got along quite well and agreed to disagree but weren't steadfast ideologues constantly bashing each other. They got things done. The terms "conservative" and "liberal" have evolved from that ideological battle, and both have been demonized to mean something evil by the other.

 

[Coyote]

Good article. Thanks for posting it. The bottom line, though, is that faith and religion WERE used as a political ploy during the 04 election. A liberal could argue until s/he was blue in the face that he has Christian values but just doesn't need to hear the message given from a pulpit, but he would still be labeled as morally corrupt simply because he wasn't a regular church-goer.

There is another article that I really like:

The Fundamentalist Agenda -- is absolutely natural, ancient, and powerful—but the liberal impulse makes us humane.

It looks at both conservatism (fundamentalism is not just religion) and liberalism in an evolutionary way. There's a need for both, in balance.

Conservatives seek to conserve and preserve - protect traditions and values. Conservatives have an exclusive definition of what is "us" and a suspicion of what is "other".

Liberals seek to push the envelope - to challenge boundaries. They have an "inclusive" definition of what is "us" and constantly seek to expand it.

It's impossible to look at it in just current politics because what was once "liberal" eventually becomes the accepted status quo and hence the value being protected by the conservatives. It's constantly changing.

Superior intelligence to the rest of the animal kingdom is the reason humans will always be required to adapt to change. Wolves will always be wolves, but the Neanderthal disappeared when the more intelligent CroMagnans appeared in smaller numbers.

All life adapts and superior intelligence isn't necessarily the key. Look at the most successful lifeforms on earth: cockroaches, mice and bacteria. Cockroaches are little changed from prehistoric times - if it works, stick with it. If it needs improvement - improve.

 

[MaggieMae]

It's fairly simple:

A liberal is more concerned about distributing the eggs that the golden goose produces, a conservative is more concerned about the health of the golden goose.

I liked that, funny.

I thought of it like this, we're all on the same ship. The Conservatives are checking the horizon and watching for shoals and reefs.

The Liberals are making sure that everyone gets an equal chance at shuffleboard.

Liberals are also checking to make sure there are enough lifeboats in case the ship hits a reef.

 

[Bfgrn]

I'm curious. When have you ever seen a conservative shitting on the US, the President, and the military?

How about:
Veteran Takes on Ann Coulter for Insulting Air Force

The President...as in Obama? Seriously? No conservatives have "shit" on this president? They can't even bring themselves to spell his name properly.