Another difference between Liberals & Conservatives

[sealybobo]

I had this friend of my daughter give me some advice concerning some issues we are dealing with locally. I'd be willing to pass that on for anyone looking at any politician that has done anything even slightly unethical, "f'm all". In nicer words get rid of them Dem or Rep makes no difference if they crooked in any manner they need to go!

Anyone willing to wait on these guys and give them a second chance after knowing that they have already pulled some shit deserves whatever comes to them. Forgive, but do not leave them in power.

Please start a thread anytime you see corruption or something fishy.

 

[cunclusion]

I am going to take it to the basics. Both Liberals and Conservatives in office have abused power and robbed the american people. The fact that one does more than the other has more to do with the amount of time in power and the amount time in power. Main fact is neither is more moral than the other and neither is more right than the other. When someone comes out and dictates one is more than the other they have blinders on.

Part if not ALL of the problems in Washington (going to the basics) is that trying to get even the most simple and uncomplicated thing done hits up against the huge bureacracy of not just floor debates but conferences, committees, caucuses, blah blah blah. When you consider that Congress has almost as much time off as they do working, it's no wonder our system for enacting law is so slow and all too often churns out bad results. Some people call for term limits, which would only compound the problem because then the sparse amount of time congress is actually working FOR US will be shared with campaiging FOR US.

The whole organization chart of how the respective chambers of Congress operate needs to be revamped. But I'll sure 'nuff be dead before that ever happens.

Thing is its not just Washington people in office in states, cities and even some counties make the same mistakes that people in Washington do. The only issue is everyone looks at Washington but not at the state capitals. The issue is covers a wide swath of the political arena. Even at this level the time they actually work is limited.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

liberals: books & newspapers

conservatives: talk radio

 

[midcan5]

"Liberals demand that the social order should in principle be capable of explaining itself at the tribunal of each person's understanding." Jeremy Waldron


First, many things that are labeled or presumed to be liberal are not. 'Liberal' for some is just a 'bad' (four letter) word without any specific defining qualities. Conservatives accomplished that through corporate think tanks and the likes of coulter limbaugh et al.

Whenever a conservative (C), as PoliticalChic PC)does above, defines liberal, the ideas are simply a rehashing of a long string of rhetoric whose purpose grew out of an effort to bring down the New Deal, equal rights legislation, environmental protection laws, and the Great Society. If there is one key element of C it is hierarchy.

Let me just briefly touch on PC's long list of faulty premises:

#1 No liberal thinks harmony is natural, individual freedom is not harmony. If liberal philosophy believed in harmony we could banish regulation or a strong constitutional government. We could believe in that free market you guys worship. Obviously number one is off base.

Since Reagan ran from Beirut, and Cheney Bush and most republicans are draft dodgers aka chickenhawks, and they had power during the years in question they too made America weak through their inaction. 911 happened on your watch. PS FDR won the biggest war of all in case you forgot. Another point wrong by PC.

#2 This one is too simple, I refer the conscientious reader to: The Conservative Nanny State The Fannie et al had little to do with the financial crisis, it was too small. It actually has done some good - I say that in spite of some poor administrative work and bad management. But, oh sorry, I forgot we believed in harmony and the goodness of people. NAH! Regulations were destroyed starting with Reagan. Leave people to do as they please and you see what happened. Can you spell S&L? Another wrong.

#3 Again see reply to 2. It does not follow that giving people a vote to join a union will lead to the place corporate tools assume (I'm not even sure where that place is?). But if you consider the alternative, I wish you well on walmart's third world wages.

#4 This is countered by anyone who has even the slightest knowledge of liberalism. See my quote at top. Read Rawls, Waldron, Berlin, Starr. Wrong again.

#5 This one lost me? I can surely defend myself here, think I do that often enough. Explain, examples, this made no sense.

#6 This is repeated so often one wonders does the person who says it think, even for a second. The example is equally absurd and if taken as proof of anything shows the poster does not follow the news as studies have shown it does help recruiting. Terrorists don't appear out of the wood work - things do motivate them. But maybe feeling intuition aren't so bad as Bush Jr stuck to ideology and failed.

I had an epiphany concerning the fundamental differences between L and C but will share that another time.

*******

Reply to Manifold's original thread.

The proof my friend is in the pudding. I can sit here all day and tell you I am the greatest cook and lover but if I can't perform and don't, then it is just words. Politics must be pragmatic if it is anything. Since Reagan we have seen the results of lower taxes, of the incursion of religion into society, of deregulation, of military hubris, of the neglect of the infrastructure, of growing corporate power and weakening worker rights and the results are clear no need to repeat. Shame it took so long for most to see this too, we 'harmonious' liberals saw it long ago. LOL



"The peculiar internal tension of liberal constitutions is that they constrain power even as they authorize it—that is, they attempt to curb the despotic power and ambitions of individual rulers and officials and, by doing so, to permit stronger systemic capacities." Paul Starr

 

[Indiana Oracle]

So now that you've listed only 6 of what I suspect is a long list of generalized anti-liberal opinions, will you also be posting a list of tributes for conservatives, whom I can only presume you think can do no wrong? Since the conservative party is so broken, primarily because of their outdated ideologies, that should be interesting.

Thanks for asking.
1) Conservatives believe that there are moral truths, right and wrong, and that these truths are permanent. The result of infracting these truths will be atrocities and social disaster. Liberals believe in a privatization of morality so complete that no code of conduct is generally accepted, practically to the point of ‘do what you can get away with’. These beliefs are aimed at the gratification of appetites and exhibit anarchistic impulses.

2) Conservatives believe that custom and tradition result in individuals living in peace. Law is custom and precedent. Liberals are destroyers of custom and convention. To a conservative, change should be gradual, as the new society is often inferior to the old. We build on the ideas and experience of our ancestors. The species is wiser than the individual (Burke).

3) Liberals are impulsive, and imprudent. They believe in quick changes, and risk new abuses worse than the ‘evils’ that they would sweep away, since remedies are usually not simple. Plato said that prudence is the mark of the statesman. There should be a balance between permanence and change, while liberals see ‘progress’ as some mythical direction for society.

4) Conservatives believe in the principle of variety, while liberal perspectives result in a narrowing uniformity. Under conservative principles, there will be differences in class, material condition and other inequalities. Equality will be of opportunity, not necessarily of result. The only uniformity will be before the law. Society will not be perfect. Consider the results of the rule of ideologues of the last century.

5) Freedom and property are linked. Private property results in a more stable and productive society. Private property and retaining the fruits of one’s labor has been proven successful from the Puritan’s Bradford, to the Stakhanovite Revolution!

6) Conservatives believe in voluntary community and charity, based on duties to each other, with the assumption that each person must do whatever he could to avoid requiring assistance, as opposed to involuntary collectivism, as in “let the government do it.. Burke's understanding that the "little platoon" - family, neighborhood, professional organizations etc - is the "first principle" of society has been consistently identified as providing the necessary inspiration for conservativism. And explains why conservatives give more to charity than liberals.

7) Conservatives view people as both good and bad, and for this reason believe on restraints on power, as in checks and balances, while liberals see power as a force for good, as long as the power is in their hands.

8) Liberals and Conservatives differ in the way to proceed. For Conservatives, data informs policy. (“More Guns, Less Crime” and“Mass murderers apparently can’t read, since they are constantly shooting up ‘gun-free zones.’”- Coulter) We use Conservative principles to the best of our ability, but when confronting new and original venues, we believe in testing, and analysis of the results of the tests. For liberals, feeling passes for knowing; it is based on emotion often to the exclusion of thinking.

9) Conservatives view results differently from Liberals. Liberals respond to success and material wealth with envy and hostility, encourage class warfare and an attempt to obviate any chance that it might happen again. The exception is when it is a Liberal with the wealth. Conservatives see success as the validation and culmination of the application of Conservative principles, most prominently Liberty.

10) Since Liberals see their view as a higher calling that that of Conservatives, they mistakenly believe that it is entirely appropriate for then to use, not logic, facts, nor accepted debating techniques, but ad hominem attacks on the physical appearance, personal history, or imaginary mental defects. Notice how the Liberal replaces intellect with emotion. This is, no doubt, based on a medieval concept of recognizing witches and demons. In fact, Liberals attempt to deal with opponents in similar fashion: recall Clarence Thomas’ “High Tech Lynching.”

Aren't you going to give credit to whatever conservative manifesto you gleaned all that from? The repetitive stuff, plus other clues suggest it's been plagiarized. But that's okay. You simply list ten repititious tenets that can be found a gazillion other places which are based on ideology only rather than modern day realities. And reality is what Republicans (conservatives particularly) need to wake up to.

If everything you posted were real instead of being SURREAL, then Republicans would be in power. I mean it's all so compassionate and majestic at the same time.

With all due respect to the more thoughtful among us on this forum, I, too, recognize what PC has outlined. My readings reveal these to be the accepted nostrums of conservatism.

What I would like to see, and have never encountered personally, is a table with the critique outlined by PC on the left with a defense of each point (at the same level of reasoning) on the right. Anyone?

 

[oreo]

It's fairly simple:

A liberal is more concerned about distributing the eggs that the golden goose produces, a conservative is more concerned about the health of the golden goose.

 

[editec]

Are you stating a question or making a statement? Are you saying all repulicans are Christians? Can a non-Christian be a republican? Can a Christian be a democrat? What does being a Christian mean?

are you claiming that the repub party isn't the party of the christian right?

how viable is a christian left?

Plenty when the issue was Black civil rights. Plenty still, too, when it comes to issues of social justice.

Perhaps the fact that many of those people don't wear their religion on their sleeve explains why you doubt leftist christians are players.

Of course I wouldn't exactly call those civil rights christians leftists, but clearly those people who currently identify themselves as conservatives on THIS board, would have, had they been old enough to be there when it was happening.

Of course, back then the epithet to describe fredom riders was either: uppity niggars, outside agitators, God-damned Yankees, or New York liberal Jews, but I think you get my drift, Jill.

 

[editec]

It's fairly simple:

A liberal is more concerned about distributing the eggs that the golden goose produces, a conservative is more concerned about the health of the golden goose.

Oh yeah.right.

As is so apparent by the outcome of how the golden goose called the American working class is doing.

Yeah, you conservatives are clearly very concerned with their well being.

Its so evident in the policies you advance and your viseral hatred for the fact that some of them are still now bowing down and kissing the master's ass.

What an asskissing, groveling tool you are.

 

[sealybobo]

liberals: books & newspapers

conservatives: talk radio

So called "liberal" newspapers have been bought up by neo con's and they lie just as much as Fox News.

The Detroit News is GUILTY of this, IMO.

I even found them lying about Obama. When they compared him to McCain during the elections, they LIED about his position on raising taxes.

And, they broke their unions in the late 80's. Fuck Newspapers. Fucking dinosaurs. The only thing good they offer are coupons.

 

[sealybobo]

It's fairly simple:

A liberal is more concerned about distributing the eggs that the golden goose produces, a conservative is more concerned about the health of the golden goose.

OMG! This is the BULLSHIT post of the fucking year. The GOP killed our economy, our standing in the world, broke our military, bankrupted the country, drove more people into debt/poverty.

The GOP have killed the middle class. We'll never replace all the jobs lost under the GOP.

Actually, with stem cell and global warming, we might have a big boom like we did with the internet.

But not if the GOP are in charge, because they don't beleive in either.

 

[Iriemon]

With all due respect to the more thoughtful among us on this forum, I, too, recognize what PC has outlined. My readings reveal these to be the accepted nostrums of conservatism.

What I would like to see, and have never encountered personally, is a table with the critique outlined by PC on the left with a defense of each point (at the same level of reasoning) on the right. Anyone?

I don't want to do that exercise, takes too long, but I'll take you up on one:

10) Since Liberals see their view as a higher calling that that of Conservatives, they mistakenly believe that it is entirely appropriate for then to use, not logic, facts, nor accepted debating techniques, but ad hominem attacks on the physical appearance, personal history, or imaginary mental defects. Notice how the Liberal replaces intellect with emotion. This is, no doubt, based on a medieval concept of recognizing witches and demons. In fact, Liberals attempt to deal with opponents in similar fashion: recall Clarence Thomas’ “High Tech Lynching.”

Exhibit A:

I realize that this is well beyond your intellectual means... the purpose of this statement is simply to demonstrate your limitations and belittle and berate you for being such a FOOL...

Any questions Sis?

This was a response to a male member - Ad hom

Oh... Ok... I thought you were making the argument that Torture is illegal... and that there are no exceptions... and speeding is illegal, yet there are exceptions... and the exception is founded in the moral imperative... Just EXATCLY like the exception for the US Military for inducing limited forms of stress on those who are associated with secret organizations who overtly seek the wholesale slaughter of innocent human beings, wherein culling from them, critical, time sensitive information, which is necessary to prevent the slaughter of innocent people...

Appeal to emotion - fear

You're either a liar or an idiot... I frankly don't care which as one is a unenviable as the next...

Ad hom

The US isn't torturing anyone... but we have culled critical time sensitive information which has STOPPED ONGOING OPERATIONS BY THE TERRORISTS ENEMY WHICH WOULD HAVE OTHERWISE RESULTED IN THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT US CITIZENS BEING SLAUGHTERED... thus your position is absurd...

Appeal to emotion instead of fact

There is no valid justification for terrorism or the irrational notion of Islamic jihad as practiced by the terrorist.... and there is no end to invalid justifications; they're a dime a dozen and can be found anywhere... one of the first order, is the projection advanced by YOU and your TERRORIST PROMOTING COMRADES that the US is torturing the innocent... TERRORISTS. Your position establishes the absurdity that the TERRORISTS ARE THE VICTIMS...

Both ad hom and emotional appeal

Look around kids... What you're seeing on any of the DOZEN "Torture" threads in progress right now across this very board, is little more than the Ideological left desperately trying to make the MASS MURDERING TERRORISTS... to be the VICTIMS... That is ALL this is....

Emotional appeal

Any questions Sis?

Ad hom

So now that you've been educated... Stop trolling and find something LESS SUBVERSIVE TO DO WITH YOUR TIME.

Assertion of superiority and ad hom.

And after you have explained how it is that Publius is a liberal, if you need or want more we can move on to exhibit B.

 

[Maple]

If there is no golden goose, there are no golden eggs to be distributed to anyone. Get it now???

You all will very soon realize that the socilaistic policies of this President will do little to nothing to improve YOUR human condition. This includes your finances, your retirement, your employment situation, that is, if you are still lucky enough to keep your job within the next 4 years. If you think the Reagan years were bad, with 20 years of growth promoted by his tax cuts across the board I am going to want to hear from you after just 4 of this President's term. It' gonna be very UGLY and very PAINFUL, even for you libs.

Unemployment does not discriminate between conservatives and liberals, sorry libs you are not exempt from this disaster.

The health of the golden goose is important and right now the goose is being starved to death.

 

[sealybobo]

If there is no golden goose, there are no golden eggs to be distributed to anyone. Get it now???

You all will very soon realize that the socilaistic policies of this President will do little to nothing to improve YOUR human condition. This includes your finances, your retirement, your employment situation, that is, if you are still lucky enough to keep your job within the next 4 years. If you think the Reagan years were bad, with 20 years of growth promoted by his tax cuts across the board I am going to want to hear from you after just 4 of this President's term. It' gonna be very UGLY and very PAINFUL, even for you libs.

Unemployment does not discriminate between conservatives and liberals, sorry libs you are not exempt from this disaster.

The health of the golden goose is important and right now the goose is being starved to death.

You guys sent all the jobs overseas. That is why we have such high unemployment. YOUR FAULT.

Now can Obama bring back the jobs YOUR PARTY lost? I don't know. But it is your party that sold us down the river for cheap foreign labor. Both at home and abroad.

And when you can't deny it any more, you'll admit it and say that it was inevidable.

PS. Everything you said, you guys said the same thing about Clinton.

And, you voted for Bush, so why should anyone listen to you?

 

[Iriemon]

If there is no golden goose, there are no golden eggs to be distributed to anyone. Get it now???

You all will very soon realize that the socilaistic policies of this President will do little to nothing to improve YOUR human condition. This includes your finances, your retirement, your employment situation, that is, if you are still lucky enough to keep your job within the next 4 years. If you think the Reagan years were bad, with 20 years of growth promoted by his tax cuts across the board I am going to want to hear from you after just 4 of this President's term. It' gonna be very UGLY and very PAINFUL, even for you libs.

Unemployment does not discriminate between conservatives and liberals, sorry libs you are not exempt from this disaster.

The health of the golden goose is important and right now the goose is being starved to death.

Sounds just like all those Republican quotes from '93 I'd posted earlier.

 

[manifold]

liberals: books & newspapers

conservatives: talk radio

Since I get most of my news from USMB and The Daily Show, what does that make me besides woefully illinformed?

 

[sealybobo]

If there is no golden goose, there are no golden eggs to be distributed to anyone. Get it now???

You all will very soon realize that the socilaistic policies of this President will do little to nothing to improve YOUR human condition. This includes your finances, your retirement, your employment situation, that is, if you are still lucky enough to keep your job within the next 4 years. If you think the Reagan years were bad, with 20 years of growth promoted by his tax cuts across the board I am going to want to hear from you after just 4 of this President's term. It' gonna be very UGLY and very PAINFUL, even for you libs.

Unemployment does not discriminate between conservatives and liberals, sorry libs you are not exempt from this disaster.

The health of the golden goose is important and right now the goose is being starved to death.

Sounds just like all those Republican quotes from '93 I'd posted earlier.

And remember last year and the year before we were warning Republicans that the fundamentals of our economy were not strong? Remember what they said? They mocked us and told us that we were just whiners. Remember that?

And now the shoe is on the other foot.

But did we start bashing Bushanomics in 2001? No, I think we didn't start complaining until 2003. I started seeing the bad signs in late 2002. And that was during a time when it was unpatriotic to question King George.

I remember finding out what the GOP was up to from NPR, the Daily Show or Air America. The only three places telling us what was really going on. For example, I remember when the GOP House Ways & Means met to take away tax breaks to companies going overseas. When the meeting was over, they ended up giving those companies MORE tax breaks.

Now I am sure Republicans can defend that decision, just like they can argue with Obama for wanting to do away with those tax breaks. Of course they say it'll raise the price of products, make US companies less competitive and cost people their jobs. Typical threats from the right. Thats why I say Republicans can argue for anything. If the party tells them to be pro murdering kittens, they will make an argument for it. I bet Republicans are really good at debating.

 

[editec]

I think the Democrats have taken the side of the people on every issue. They just stab us in the back behind closed doors.

Not entirely true. Sometimes the Dems piss on our heads and call it rain.

But the GOP are clearly the anti labor and pro corporation party. They were unashamed about it for so long.

Actually I think that's their most endearing quality.

At least they openly express their contempt for all working Americans. (who aren't in uniform)

Great example is how McCain thought he could get away with voting against the troops 80% of the time and STILL say he was pro troops. And voters almost bought it.

Those who did would be our bumpersticker patriots, yes?

That's because republican voters will defend their party even against their own financial interests. Why?

Hubris, I expect.

Few people want to side with losers even if the losers are themselves.

Maybe it hasn't hurt them yet. But then their 401K's and homes lost value too, yet they still defend the GOP.

Peasants ALWAYS think the king is their bestest bestest buddy, Sealy...until they don't. And then whatever power hungry freak with the most plausible explanation becomes their bestest buddy until he can consolidate power and starts knocking off the malcontents who put him in office.

That's because the GOP appeals to their conservative values. God, Gays, Guns and Less Taxes.

It's worked for 30 years or so. When you find a smokescreen as effective as that you hang onto it!

And it is now obvoius the GOP doesn't care about any of those things. They just used those wedge issues to get people to vote outside of their tax brackets.

That's because they know that BIG SIMPLE lies work better on simpletons than small and complex truthful details do.

Also the GOP caters to the racist vote.

Not entirely, but it is on the a la carte menu.

The Dems don't have anything to admit or apologize for.

Not to you, maybe.

Me, they got some 'splaining to do, Lucy.

The last 8 years are a direct result of GOP policies.

Two word answer to THAT partisan overstatement, amigo...

PATRIOT ACT​

Deregulations, tax shelters, loopholes, speculation, gouging, emptying the treasury, hiring illegals to lower wages, outsourcing, etc. That was all Republican free market bullshit. Sure Clinton signed NAFTA,

Other than THAT, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?

but look at how the GOP loves NAFTA and they don't want to change a thing.

And you think Obama is going to, do you? God I wish I still had your faith. It's almost touching.

Now we do need to stay on the Dems, because they are just as easily corruptable as the GOP.

They're actually much better at being corrupt than the GOP. The GOP's corruption is so blatent that it appears to me they've stopped trying to hide it.

But if you paid attention the last 8 years, you know the GOP was corrupted from the top down. Tom Delay and Bush had complete control of government. They got the votes they needed by any means necessary. And they passed laws that hurt us. Helped them, but hurt 95% of us.

You know what maybe we need, Sealy? Maybe we need a lamp to find us an honest man.

So if you see the dems passing laws that give corporations tax breaks for sending jobs overseas, like the GOP did, then you can say they are anti American too.

I'd like to see how the voting went on that issue, S.

I suspect you'll discover that there were plenty of Dems voting for that, too.

Dodd is a great example. That son of a bitch tried to sneak in bonus' to AIG execs? We need to kick his ass to the curb if the does that again. But don't throw him out until he proves to be a sellout who can't reform. Because what is the alternative?

I smoke my alternative...usually around 4:20 PM. Keeps me from getting the screaming crazies.

Replace him with a Republican who would do the exact same thing, only he wouldn't be ashamed about it?

Replace them with editecians.

No guarantees that they're incorruptable, (in fact I can guarantee they're not incorruptable) but watching C-SPAN will be one hell of a lot more amusing.

 

[RodISHI]

It's fairly simple:

A liberal is more concerned about distributing the eggs that the golden goose produces, a conservative is more concerned about the health of the golden goose.

Oh yeah.right.

As is so apparent by the outcome of how the golden goose called the American working class is doing.

Yeah, you conservatives are clearly very concerned with their well being.

Its so evident in the policies you advance and your viseral hatred for the fact that some of them are still now bowing down and kissing the master's ass.

What an asskissing, groveling tool you are.

The greedy man simply slaughters the golden goose because he forgets about the eggs the goose produces.

 

[jgbkab]

It's fairly simple:

A liberal is more concerned about distributing the eggs that the golden goose produces, a conservative is more concerned about the health of the golden goose.

Oh yeah.right.

As is so apparent by the outcome of how the golden goose called the American working class is doing.

Yeah, you conservatives are clearly very concerned with their well being.

Its so evident in the policies you advance and your viseral hatred for the fact that some of them are still now bowing down and kissing the master's ass.

What an asskissing, groveling tool you are.

The greedy man simply slaughters the golden goose because he forgets about the eggs the goose produces.

After your entire house and barn are filled with golden eggs, why would you need the goose? If someone else got the golden goose, your eggs wouldn't be worth as much. I say kill the goose.

 

[sealybobo]

I think the Democrats have taken the side of the people on every issue. They just stab us in the back behind closed doors.

Not entirely true. Sometimes the Dems piss on our heads and call it rain.

But the GOP are clearly the anti labor and pro corporation party. They were unashamed about it for so long.

Actually I think that's their most endearing quality.

At least they openly express their contempt for all working Americans. (who aren't in uniform)




Those who did would be our bumpersticker patriots, yes?



Hubris, I expect.

Few people want to side with losers even if the losers are themselves.



Peasants ALWAYS think the king is their bestest bestest buddy, Sealy...until they don't. And then whatever power hungry freak with the most plausible explanation becomes their bestest buddy until he can consolidate power and starts knocking off the malcontents who put him in office.



It's worked for 30 years or so. When you find a smokescreen as effective as that you hang onto it!



That's because they know that BIG SIMPLE lies work better on simpletons than small and complex truthful details do.



Not entirely, but it is on the a la carte menu.




Not to you, maybe.

Me, they got some 'splaining to do, Lucy.



Two word answer to THAT partisan overstatement, amigo...

PATRIOT ACT​

Other than THAT, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?



And you think Obama is going to, do you? God I wish I still had your faith. It's almost touching.



They're actually much better at being corrupt than the GOP. The GOP's corruption is so blatent that it appears to me they've stopped trying to hide it.



You know what maybe we need, Sealy? Maybe we need a lamp to find us an honest man.




I'd like to see how the voting went on that issue, S.

I suspect you'll discover that there were plenty of Dems voting for that, too.

Dodd is a great example. That son of a bitch tried to sneak in bonus' to AIG execs? We need to kick his ass to the curb if the does that again. But don't throw him out until he proves to be a sellout who can't reform. Because what is the alternative?

I smoke my alternative...usually around 4:20 PM. Keeps me from getting the screaming crazies.

Replace him with a Republican who would do the exact same thing, only he wouldn't be ashamed about it?

Replace them with editecians.

No guarantees that they're incorruptable, (in fact I can guarantee they're not incorruptable) but watching C-SPAN will be one hell of a lot more amusing.

Two things I want to touch on. But before, great replies.

Ok, first thing is fixing NAFTA. Or, bringing jobs back home. Or, just fixing the economy so there are enough jobs available that it brings up wages. Bernaeke already said he sees a light at the end of the recession tunnel. Second, Dems will invest in alternative energy & stem cell so those will be two new economies, hopefully like the internet added jobs. AND, Obama says that ending those offshore tax shelters for corporations will help bring jobs back home and/or stop more from leaving. Those tax breaks encourage companies to leave the US. Its only been 100 days or so and I already see improvement from the last administration.

Second issue is the PATRIOT ACT. Who were the two dems leading the fight against the patriot act? Daschel & Leahy. Who were the two dems that got mailed Anthrax?

Coincidence?

Chaney made them an offer they couldn't refuse.